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First, let me share the position/approach we have on this issue.
Providing reliable pressure drop information with exact numbers without detailed laboratory testing we consider unprofessional approach, it is scientifically unreliable.
Because the pressure drop is directly related to the air flow.
And we can not measure this airflow exactly on the car to say our numbers are our figures are accurate and reliable.
At the same time, the problem is absolutely obvious - the design of regular cast tanks, core thickness of OEM cores immediately caught our attention.
When creating our product, we initially chose the approach of maximizing pressure loss because we did not intend to make the product cheap/affordable, but focused on high-performance configurations.
We don't have our own core manufacturing or end tank casting.
the ability to develop complex products is our only advantage, and we decided to implement it.
Our cores are significantly thicker than stock or any competitive.
Core has effective thickness of 110mm and produced according to the most efficient technology of the PWR North America/ С&R.
Values we got with manufacturer, they are the basis for calculating the efficiency of the intercooler and they are confirmed by a reputable manufacturer, as well as validated during testing
Pressure Drop (PD) of CR|LEVEL cores - 1,37786 [psi] @ mass flow of 0.4 [kg/s]
Charge Air inlet Pressure 4.02 [bar] absolute
Charge Air Inlet Temp 180 [C]
Charge Air Outlet Temp 58.9 [C]
Av. Normalised Heat Dissipation 14.249 [kW/m2/°C ETD]
Then we have theoretical, calculated values for our end tanks:
Pressure drop for both small And large tanks (inner+outer ones) (SUM) is 212 [Pa] ()@ mass flow of 0.4 kg/s which in terms of is 0,030748 psi.
so theoretically we have pressure drop of 1,408608 psi @ 0.4 kg/s for the whole unit.
I would be happy to reliably measure this value with a standard intercooler, but we are not able to do this.
sorry for the possibly boring answer, even my team calls me a bore but it is this approach that allows us to fulfill our obligations to customers.
if you are interested, I showed the intercooler before welding in details in this video:
pay attention to the flow separator in the inlet tanks, according to calculations, its influence on the uniformity of filling the tubes is very large and without it the overall efficiency of the core would be 20% lower
the BELL core shown on that video was our was the first of six types we tested.
it has the lowest pressure drop, lowest cost but is not suitable for the Turbo S power plant configuration at all.
it is good for huge airflow, high boost applications and needs to be way bigger because its density (core density) is several times lower then C&R has (and the car needs)
we assumed it, but we had to make sure because without data validation, you cannot rely on your mathematical model
We tend to simply the comparison here with a flow bench to show real world numbers.
Basically, develop a flow curve of the factory IC at flow levels above, equal to and below a nominal rate to cover 600 to 1000 hp. Then run the same flow rate through the aftermarket IC. Done.
Example: pick 400, 500 , 600, 700 CFM flow points and see what the pressure drop is at those points and create a slope/curve.
If the factory IC needs 1psi, 2psi, 3psi and 4psi to reach those flow rates and the aftermarket needs 0.5psi, 1.0psi, 1.5psi and 2.0 psi you have a clear winner on pressure drop. That can be tested after you reach the thermal results that you want.
Its’s an interesting exercise to balance thermal rejection vs pressure drop.
We tend to simply the comparison here with a flow bench to show real world numbers.
Basically, develop a flow curve of the factory IC at flow levels above, equal to and below a nominal rate to cover 600 to 1000 hp. Then run the same flow rate through the aftermarket IC. Done.
Example: pick 400, 500 , 600, 700 CFM flow points and see what the pressure drop is at those points and create a slope/curve.
If the factory IC needs 1psi, 2psi, 3psi and 4psi to reach those flow rates and the aftermarket needs 0.5psi, 1.0psi, 1.5psi and 2.0 psi you have a clear winner on pressure drop. That can be tested after you reach the thermal results that you want.
Its’s an interesting exercise to balance thermal rejection vs pressure drop.
Cheers
how do you propose to measure the air flow to obtain these CFM values?
do you mean OEM ECU data only (If you mean exactly these calculated parameters, then I understand what you are talking about) or any additional sensors?
i'd love to get this data in a format that will be meaningful to the community here and I have all the resources for this.
so if you consider it possible, I will be glad to take your advice
as for the thermal results - we used the best available components and scaled up the core as much as we could.
I don't see any more options to improve it now. so it's really time to check the pressure loss
I hope you understand my explanations in English
P.S. my team allowed me to show some CFD data - now we are working to make center section even more efficient adding some guide wings to increase flow velocity even more.
compared to this shape, the factory square design looks just monstrous
how do you propose to measure the air flow to obtain these CFM values?
do you mean OEM ECU data only (If you mean exactly these calculated parameters, then I understand what you are talking about) or any additional sensors?
i'd love to get this data in a format that will be meaningful to the community here and I have all the resources for this.
so if you consider it possible, I will be glad to take your advice
as for the thermal results - we used the best available components and scaled up the core as much as we could.
I don't see any more options to improve it now. so it's really time to check the pressure loss
I hope you understand my explanations in English
P.S. my team allowed me to show some CFD data - now we are working to make center section even more efficient adding some guide wings to increase flow velocity even more.
compared to this shape, the factory square design looks just monstrous
We just max out the typical ballpark for a 992TTS compressor wheel around 35lb which is roughly 500cfm each in the "real world" without worrying too much about correction factors as that will drive you nuts without any substantial hysteresis . So go under that incase you don't max the island and go above it incase you add a larger billet wheel and you will develop a curve that is very useful for stock vs aftermarket.....I'll post another vendor chart that does it the same way below for reference.
thanks, I will continue to study the language) btw, best way is to learn modern one is to read car memes in english. they show culture and make vocabulary wider)))
we have a customer car who is driving daily, even in winter and in mud.
the car has 10kkm on our stage2+ic+exhaust manifolds setup.
if fact it was very first SLM printed and welded set.
welding was not very beautiful, because we were just adjusting the welding modes, but the functionality is already full-fledged and the reliability is confirmed by road tests.
I can already conclude that inconel alloy with a thickness of 0.8 mm works great and weighs very little
you may find pics of this manifold vs stock (BTW OEM exhaust manifolds are MADE IN CHINA)
We haven't finished all the development yet - still working on inlets and the plenum/manifold part. Big bore TB upgrade needs to be validated too.
As for the exhaust manifolds and the intercooler - they are available. We are now waiting for the batch of cores from C&R. Supply chain is really painful now.
For US car owners we will most likely recommend the turbo upgrade from Xona - their turbos are used to be good and we will have our first kit to provide the output numbers shortly.
Exhaust system is also up to you, we prefer Kline/Akrapovic stuff.
If you are interested, dm or email me please, i'll provide the terms and exact ETD.
Yep, few of them.
Lucky I've got my forum access restored.
First, we have re-set 1/4 mile record with consistent runs.
1/2 looks good too
298 trap speed at Race America
No clutch slip, no nervous issues, just regular runs.
Working on more but our regulations deny cars below 9.1/14.4 to run without the rollcage at the events. Looking for the track day to go further.
still keeping torque below 980 to be safe with rods.
Also build several cars with our mods and doing few more:
Working on the stage4 car - built an engine recently.
What about building a 4 liter engine and blowproof trans for my 23' turbo s, looking for 1100-1200 hp for street use?
have to work a lot on this and perform some testing.
know for sure how to make bulletproof 850 awhp setup already but it's below your demand yet.
we have a car with upgraded rods already and will continue development.
no clutch upgrades yet, cant wait for Dodson one to test (i'm totally inlove with latest promax design and manufacturing quality)
not sure 992 will require the 4.0 upgrade...I'd rather stay on 3.8 for now.
So the answer is definitely yes. Just few details will require confirmation of research.
By the time you receive the car, the solution will be ready.
have to work a lot on this and perform some testing.
know for sure how to make bulletproof 850 awhp setup already but it's below your demand yet.
we have a car with upgraded rods already and will continue development.
no clutch upgrades yet, cant wait for Dodson one to test (i'm totally inlove with latest promax design and manufacturing quality)
not sure 992 will require the 4.0 upgrade...I'd rather stay on 3.8 for now.
So the answer is definitely yes. Just few details will require confirmation of research.
By the time you receive the car, the solution will be ready.
carl@hcvind.com
INTERESTED, I am at 800 whp on 93 pump gas on my 21', I could go 100 octane as I have that at the pump, but at 15 dollars a gallon that's not a good choice, and you be near 900 you will need trans upgrade if you want it to last. So lets get going
Yep, few of them.
Lucky I've got my forum access restored.
First, we have re-set 1/4 mile record with consistent runs.
1/2 looks good too
298 trap speed at Race America
No clutch slip, no nervous issues, just regular runs.
Working on more but our regulations deny cars below 9.1/14.4 to run without the rollcage at the events. Looking for the track day to go further.
still keeping torque below 980 to be safe with rods.
Also build several cars with our mods and doing few more:
Working on the stage4 car - built an engine recently.
amazing stuff in this thread, makes me want to get a 992 pretty bad haha.
so you guys built motor recently?? Were you able to look at the cylinder liners they use on this generation instead of the nikasil coating?? Wondering what you think about the motor durability in terms of weakest link?? Guessing its the rods and piston ring lands.
01-16-2022, 05:12 PM
