Thoughts on moving into a 991.2...
04-11-2017, 10:26 AM
#31
Honestly, this is well off the mark, it really is 
They are very different driving experiences, one is open and airy the other is close and tight fitting (even though there is very little size difference). They feel very different too, hewn from granite versus light and nimble.
I'm a great fan of the Cayman, I own a 981 GTS and I know the 718S is an excellent car - I tracked a 718S back to back with a M2 last Sept (over three days) and the 718S wiped the floor with the M2 both in terms of feel and engine response.
However, the 991.2S is in a different league again - the difference is very noticeable. The 991.2 C2S is a much more rewarding drive (and in the hands of a good driver can easily dog a GT3). The 718/981 is very easy to drive but less rewarding - truly, a first world problem.
I know this for a fact as, less than a week ago, I did my first full track day outing in my personal .2S and put over 4.5s a lap on my 981 GTS (both have Dorians and both are running N1 spec P zeros). - the difference between the 718S would be a bit less ~ 3s - these are huge differences
Whilst the OP may have little interest in lap times - the components that add to large differences in lap times can be felt e.g. braking/grip/acceleration etc.
They are very different driving experiences, one is open and airy the other is close and tight fitting (even though there is very little size difference). They feel very different too, hewn from granite versus light and nimble.
I'm a great fan of the Cayman, I own a 981 GTS and I know the 718S is an excellent car - I tracked a 718S back to back with a M2 last Sept (over three days) and the 718S wiped the floor with the M2 both in terms of feel and engine response.
However, the 991.2S is in a different league again - the difference is very noticeable. The 991.2 C2S is a much more rewarding drive (and in the hands of a good driver can easily dog a GT3). The 718/981 is very easy to drive but less rewarding - truly, a first world problem.
I know this for a fact as, less than a week ago, I did my first full track day outing in my personal .2S and put over 4.5s a lap on my 981 GTS (both have Dorians and both are running N1 spec P zeros). - the difference between the 718S would be a bit less ~ 3s - these are huge differences
Whilst the OP may have little interest in lap times - the components that add to large differences in lap times can be felt e.g. braking/grip/acceleration etc.
Last edited by randr; 04-11-2017 at 10:59 AM.
04-11-2017, 11:27 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That 993 is gorgeous! But as a DD and/or a frequent GT/sports car then the new 991.2 is all that and more! Hey I'm a fan of classic aircooled Pcars but they do have their limitations & nuances... after all it's technology from at least two decades ago. If it's feasible... pairing up a newer 991 to a classic 993 is a win-win combo in my book. Good luck!
Since you already have two Porsches and you are a Porsche fanatic, I would never let go of the 993....if just to go out in the garage and look at it and have the bragging rights. I think the car combo that you are considering: 718 Spyder, 993 and a Tercel just work.
Opinions all over the map on this thread.....you will have to make it. Win/win so no worries.
Opinions all over the map on this thread.....you will have to make it. Win/win so no worries.
They also have a white C4S for a few thousand more. In Vancouver, with the rain and if you drive it through the winter as a DDsome snow, especially at upper elevations in Whistler) , something I'd definitely consider.
I've test driven the older cars and while they were more "raw", at my older age, I'll take a bit more comfort in a daily driver in the form of a 991.2 over the earlier cars, as beautiful and pure as they are.
But if the dealer will let you, take one out over night and see what you think for yourself.
I've test driven the older cars and while they were more "raw", at my older age, I'll take a bit more comfort in a daily driver in the form of a 991.2 over the earlier cars, as beautiful and pure as they are.
But if the dealer will let you, take one out over night and see what you think for yourself.
Totally.
I have a similar (but quite different) dilemma. Currently have a '14 Cayman S and a '93 3rd gen RX-7 which I've had since new. Although certainly not of the stature of your 993, the RX-7 is somewhat iconic in the JDM world at this point. I've also been considering a 991.2, but what to do with the current stable? I could sell the RX-7and keep the Cayman, sell the Cayman and keep the RX-7, or sell both and get down to 3 cars that'll fit in the garage w/o having to store the RX-7 for the winter.
But then I drive the Cayman and think, damn, this car is good! And the RX-7 is just like a piece of art to me, I think I'd really regret letting it go after 24 years. This car guy stuff is really tough sometimes
BTW, I love the Tercel reference! Gotta be of a certain age to remember that one!
But then I drive the Cayman and think, damn, this car is good! And the RX-7 is just like a piece of art to me, I think I'd really regret letting it go after 24 years. This car guy stuff is really tough sometimes
BTW, I love the Tercel reference! Gotta be of a certain age to remember that one!
The RX-7 is still and GREAT looking car.I've never understood 'collecting' cars. They were meant to be driven, thats why they have an engine and 4 wheels. While the 993 was fantastic.. nostalgia only goes so far. Even less when we are talking about a daily driver that should rack up 1000's of miles every year. I'd say get the 991.2 simply because your much more likely to drive the car and enjoy the latest improvements than you would the combination of two vehicles you already have. Not to mention.. what is life without trying something new. About the only thing that is ever guaranteed in life.. is that tomorrow will always be different than today.
What you say is not necessarily untrue, but it's a false equivalence.
a) He doesn't just let the 993C2S sit and molder in the garage.
b) He already has a pretty good DD base Cayman
c) He has a much faster 718 Spider incoming.
It seems to me that a 993C2S and 718 Spider make a much more compelling driving argument than a 991.2, which is itself only marginally better than a 718 and much more like the Boxster than the 993 is.
So a search for real variety would be to own a Spider and an older 911.
a) He doesn't just let the 993C2S sit and molder in the garage.
b) He already has a pretty good DD base Cayman
c) He has a much faster 718 Spider incoming.
It seems to me that a 993C2S and 718 Spider make a much more compelling driving argument than a 991.2, which is itself only marginally better than a 718 and much more like the Boxster than the 993 is.
So a search for real variety would be to own a Spider and an older 911.
In theory it is compelling to keep the 993 but in practice I would probably not drive it very often after I had a 991. I had a 993 which I sold prior to buying my current car. The driving experience is still similar being a rear engined car but much more refined with better creature comforts. The 991 is so enjoyable to drive that the 993 would just stayed parked most of he time.
Do I miss the 993? Yes, but not that much to get another one even as a second sports car. 993 C2's and C2S's are not that rare or unique to justify the time and expense it takes to maintain them properly. If I were to get an air cooler, I would rather get a long hood. Then, I could justify the added time and effort.
Good luck!
Do I miss the 993? Yes, but not that much to get another one even as a second sports car. 993 C2's and C2S's are not that rare or unique to justify the time and expense it takes to maintain them properly. If I were to get an air cooler, I would rather get a long hood. Then, I could justify the added time and effort.
Good luck!
Honestly, this is well off the mark, it really is
They are very different driving experiences, one is open and airy the other is close and tight fitting (even though there is very little size difference). They feel very different too, hewn from granite versus light and nimble.
I'm a great fan of the Cayman, I own a 981 GTS and I know the 718S is an excellent car - I tracked a 718S back to back with a M2 last Sept (over three days) and the 718S wiped the floor with the M2 both in terms of feel and engine response.
However, the 991.2S is in a different league again - the difference is very noticeable. The 991.2 C2S is a much more rewarding drive (and in the hands of a good driver can easily dog a GT3). The 718/981 is very easy to drive but less rewarding - truly, a first world problem.
I know this for a fact as, less than a week ago, I did my first full track day outing in my personal .2S and put over 4.5s a lap on my 981 GTS (both have Dorians and both are running N1 spec P zeros). - the difference between the 718S would be a bit less ~ 3s - these are huge differences
Whilst the OP may have little interest in lap times - the components that add to large differences in lap times can be felt e.g. braking/grip/acceleration etc.
They are very different driving experiences, one is open and airy the other is close and tight fitting (even though there is very little size difference). They feel very different too, hewn from granite versus light and nimble.
I'm a great fan of the Cayman, I own a 981 GTS and I know the 718S is an excellent car - I tracked a 718S back to back with a M2 last Sept (over three days) and the 718S wiped the floor with the M2 both in terms of feel and engine response.
However, the 991.2S is in a different league again - the difference is very noticeable. The 991.2 C2S is a much more rewarding drive (and in the hands of a good driver can easily dog a GT3). The 718/981 is very easy to drive but less rewarding - truly, a first world problem.
I know this for a fact as, less than a week ago, I did my first full track day outing in my personal .2S and put over 4.5s a lap on my 981 GTS (both have Dorians and both are running N1 spec P zeros). - the difference between the 718S would be a bit less ~ 3s - these are huge differences
Whilst the OP may have little interest in lap times - the components that add to large differences in lap times can be felt e.g. braking/grip/acceleration etc.
Again, time for a test drive!
04-11-2017, 06:42 PM
#33
Drifting
I think many of us are missing the point. If you have a 718 spider coming, you have a vehicle that is very similar to a 991, only a little smaller and a little slower. Kind of a 7/8 or maybe 15/16 991. And a convertible of course.
In the 993 you have a car that is about as different from a 991 while still seeming somewhat modern, as you can get in the 911 lineup. So the choice is to have a full-scale 991 period, or a 15/16 scale 991 convertible plus a very different driving experience historically significant 993 from 20 years ago. That second option makes all the sense in the world to me unless I'm trying to set FTOD at the local lap days or something, when 15/16 might not quite be enough.
I agree completely that if we are confining ourselves to one or the other, a 991 versus a 993 as my only sports car, that's a much tougher decision.
In the 993 you have a car that is about as different from a 991 while still seeming somewhat modern, as you can get in the 911 lineup. So the choice is to have a full-scale 991 period, or a 15/16 scale 991 convertible plus a very different driving experience historically significant 993 from 20 years ago. That second option makes all the sense in the world to me unless I'm trying to set FTOD at the local lap days or something, when 15/16 might not quite be enough.
I agree completely that if we are confining ourselves to one or the other, a 991 versus a 993 as my only sports car, that's a much tougher decision.
04-12-2017, 10:04 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think many of us are missing the point. If you have a 718 spider coming, you have a vehicle that is very similar to a 991, only a little smaller and a little slower. Kind of a 7/8 or maybe 15/16 991. And a convertible of course.
In the 993 you have a car that is about as different from a 991 while still seeming somewhat modern, as you can get in the 911 lineup. So the choice is to have a full-scale 991 period, or a 15/16 scale 991 convertible plus a very different driving experience historically significant 993 from 20 years ago. That second option makes all the sense in the world to me unless I'm trying to set FTOD at the local lap days or something, when 15/16 might not quite be enough.
I agree completely that if we are confining ourselves to one or the other, a 991 versus a 993 as my only sports car, that's a much tougher decision.
In the 993 you have a car that is about as different from a 991 while still seeming somewhat modern, as you can get in the 911 lineup. So the choice is to have a full-scale 991 period, or a 15/16 scale 991 convertible plus a very different driving experience historically significant 993 from 20 years ago. That second option makes all the sense in the world to me unless I'm trying to set FTOD at the local lap days or something, when 15/16 might not quite be enough.
I agree completely that if we are confining ourselves to one or the other, a 991 versus a 993 as my only sports car, that's a much tougher decision.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I really appreciate your thoughts and contributions. My next task to go and drive a 991.2 and see what the fuss is really all about.
From my Macan experience I've concluded I'm really not a fan of a lot of driving nannies, and in fact I found them rather irritating. I hope the 991.2 isn't like that. I hear reports that the electrical steering feel is getting better and better so that is something to look forward to.
And after my Macan GTS experience of agonizing over the colour and option list and then waiting and being somewhat disappointed on it's arrival I swore I'd never buy new again but stick to my tried and true purchasing habit of letting the first guy take the hit and buy a low mileage off-a-lease car. But who knows what happens when you waltz into the dealership and fire up that 991.2. You guys had that happened I know - I've read about it here!
So thanks again and I'll keep you posted.
Last edited by Zeus993; 04-12-2017 at 10:24 AM.
04-12-2017, 04:51 PM
#35
Drifting
You know, Zeus, I've been thinking and I believe I steered you wrong. Sell that 993 and you get 30, maybe 35,000 bucks to put towards a 991.2. PM me and we'll take this off-line.
04-13-2017, 01:53 PM
#38
Contrarian voice here, because I feel like getting abused today i guess : Yes, the 993 is gorgeous... I had one, but sell it and don't look back.
I never got the big hoopla about it... It had issues (squeaky windshield, secondary air ports coking up$$$, valve guides, fan relays, immobilizer, awful showcks, quiet exhaust), it was very linear in power delivery and not super exciting (to me), and my main beef was the interior looked 99% like my 1983 911SC that it replaced, with a few extra warning lights in the dash (which lit up a lot), a 6th gear and marginally better AC... What I'm saying is that IMO it's one of the prettiest cars Porsche ever made, absolutely, but if you've owned one for a while, can sell it for $$$$ because of this crazy market, and hardly drive it, go ahead and sell !! By the way those cars go for way more than posted above, way way more.. We're not talking about you selling a 1968 911R here, worst case you could always buy one back and never drive that one ;-)
The 991.2 is a fantabulous car in comparison. Thoroughly modern interior, more comfortable, way way faster with gobs of torque, all sorts of modern gadgets that actually are cool like carplay or NAV in the cluster, and more to the point, the 991 handling is more like a Cayman now than it ever was so you will love it....
I'm not trying to be mean to the C2S - gorgeous car - but to help you move on... When I look back at all my old porsches, the one I miss is the 356C (and that's more of an emotional thing than actual driving). The 993 was achingly pretty but as far as driving it, I much prefer a cayman or 991 - the 993's kinda stuck in between old classics and modern 911s, neither totally one nor the other... I'm likely alone in that opinion but it was the most disappointing 911 I owned (ducking now), mostly because it set expectations so high by being so gorgeous ! Test drive a 991 ;-)
I never got the big hoopla about it... It had issues (squeaky windshield, secondary air ports coking up$$$, valve guides, fan relays, immobilizer, awful showcks, quiet exhaust), it was very linear in power delivery and not super exciting (to me), and my main beef was the interior looked 99% like my 1983 911SC that it replaced, with a few extra warning lights in the dash (which lit up a lot), a 6th gear and marginally better AC... What I'm saying is that IMO it's one of the prettiest cars Porsche ever made, absolutely, but if you've owned one for a while, can sell it for $$$$ because of this crazy market, and hardly drive it, go ahead and sell !! By the way those cars go for way more than posted above, way way more.. We're not talking about you selling a 1968 911R here, worst case you could always buy one back and never drive that one ;-)
The 991.2 is a fantabulous car in comparison. Thoroughly modern interior, more comfortable, way way faster with gobs of torque, all sorts of modern gadgets that actually are cool like carplay or NAV in the cluster, and more to the point, the 991 handling is more like a Cayman now than it ever was so you will love it....
I'm not trying to be mean to the C2S - gorgeous car - but to help you move on... When I look back at all my old porsches, the one I miss is the 356C (and that's more of an emotional thing than actual driving). The 993 was achingly pretty but as far as driving it, I much prefer a cayman or 991 - the 993's kinda stuck in between old classics and modern 911s, neither totally one nor the other... I'm likely alone in that opinion but it was the most disappointing 911 I owned (ducking now), mostly because it set expectations so high by being so gorgeous ! Test drive a 991 ;-)
Last edited by GregD; 04-13-2017 at 06:49 PM.
04-13-2017, 08:09 PM
#39
Drifting
04-13-2017, 09:23 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Not to take anything away from the 993, but if I had my druthers, there would be a 1972 911S coupe sitting next to my 991.2 in the garage.
That really was the original that demanded full driver attention and constant shifting all of the time. No sport exhaust necessary.
That really was the original that demanded full driver attention and constant shifting all of the time. No sport exhaust necessary.
04-16-2017, 12:37 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Ok. Epic Porsche day. I had a few spare moments and drove out in my 981 Cayman (car # 1) and took this stunning 991.2 C2S for a GREAT drive (car #2) then took sales associate's new 991.2 C (car #3), then drove back in the 981 and drove a 987.2 Guards Red Boxster Spyder (car #4) that a PCAer is looking at and finally hoped in my 993 (car #5) and boogied it back to the man cave. WHAT AN EXCELLENT DAY! 😃
Now for impressions of the 991.2. I think I was expecting it to be a tame GS car but this was far from the truth. It's more raw than I expected. It barked when I fired it up. I ran it through it paces in both Sport and Sport Plus and bamm - this thing has some skootch. Coming from the 2.7 Cayman NA as a comparison I can perceive two zones of slight turbo lag - one out of the gate and the other up around 4500 rpms (2nd turbo kicking in?) but these in no way distracted me from the beautiful swell of power, the sublime exhaust note and the superb handling. Verdict? It's a GREAT car and worthy of it's 911 moniker. If I did not have two others I would have signed today. No question.
Now for the bad news. I'm upside down on a trade by a chunk IF I go with the dealership and get wholesale prices for the 981 and the 993. So for now... I stick with what I've got (which is anything from bad!) and see what I can come up with. And interestingly enough I did have a blast driving the 981 Cayman HARD on the way out to the dealership and back. It's a fantastic car in it's own right.
Here's a few pics of the 991.2. Thanks again for everyone's input. And the show isn't over yet...
Now for impressions of the 991.2. I think I was expecting it to be a tame GS car but this was far from the truth. It's more raw than I expected. It barked when I fired it up. I ran it through it paces in both Sport and Sport Plus and bamm - this thing has some skootch. Coming from the 2.7 Cayman NA as a comparison I can perceive two zones of slight turbo lag - one out of the gate and the other up around 4500 rpms (2nd turbo kicking in?) but these in no way distracted me from the beautiful swell of power, the sublime exhaust note and the superb handling. Verdict? It's a GREAT car and worthy of it's 911 moniker. If I did not have two others I would have signed today. No question.
Now for the bad news. I'm upside down on a trade by a chunk IF I go with the dealership and get wholesale prices for the 981 and the 993. So for now... I stick with what I've got (which is anything from bad!) and see what I can come up with. And interestingly enough I did have a blast driving the 981 Cayman HARD on the way out to the dealership and back. It's a fantastic car in it's own right.
Here's a few pics of the 991.2. Thanks again for everyone's input. And the show isn't over yet...
04-16-2017, 11:57 AM
#43
What did the dealer offer for the 993? If you don't feel comfortable or willing to make this info public, I understand. I'm not in the market for a 993 buying or selling, just my own curiosity.
04-17-2017, 11:07 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Obviously dealers have to make some money but the offer on the 993 was way off. I think they have one they are trying to sell that they dumped a TON of money into. So they were WAY off by about 25% of the retail price for a 60K mile, 1998 C2S in excellent condition.