Regular Auto Insurance Coverage for DE (Driver Education) for US based drivers?
11-26-2016, 05:42 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Regular Auto Insurance Coverage for DE (Driver Education) for US based drivers?
While this may turn out to be a lost cause right out of the gate, I am wondering if any US insurance companies remain willing to provide typical policy coverage for NON-TIMED events on tracks/courses. This would obviously apply to DE or car control clinics run by so many different car clubs.
Up until quite recently, my insurance company (USAA) did in fact provide such coverage, as long as there was no timing for the event (other than the amount of time each run group was permitted out on the track.
In my particular case, no notice of this policy change was given or made available to me, until a friend at a PCA DE told me that USAA's policy language had changed. At the first opportunity after the week-end I called the company and was informed that the language had changed. In the representative's opinion, all track/course use is excluded from coverage. Upon actually being able to read this part of the policy I can see that it is not well written, in that perhaps a viable argument could be made that DE, at least on PCA terms and rules, could narrowly escape the exclusion.
Having said the above, I am in no position to, nor do I have any intention of, putting this policy language to a litigation test. That being the case, given the prohibitive cost of insuring (for damage to the car only; no liability or other property damage, i.e. to the track facility or other cars, and no med pay coverage, and lastly, a $5,000 deductible for damage to my car) my '15 991 GTS for a single track day, I really have no choice but to retire this car from any track use.
While many of you may not be in the same position, the primary reason I sold my '12 Cayman R to move up to the 991 GTS was to be able to use it as often as possible at the fabulous tracks in northeast North America. If this car were just a toy I could afford to write off and walk away from, dreaming of an even newer one, it would be much different. Not gonna happen.
The critical factor with specifically written track insurance is that these policies actually cover very little, but cost very much. My example application called for replacement value of my car at $150,000, which is what it cost me, including the aftermarket enhancements. The quote that "popped up" was US$1,050.00 for ONE track day of coverage. I will acknowledge that a package of multiple track days over a season would be available at some discount. But what? $850 per day?
It is interesting to me that it seems in Canada, DE, or driver training and education, is covered by regular insurance policies. One more good thing about our wonderful neighbor to the north, I guess.
Let's say I decide to sell this car, due to the fact that it can no longer be used as originally intended, and that there is a financial loss to me. Though I may have a viable cause of action against USAA, it would surely involve more time, trouble and expense than I could justify. So, it seems I have to find a much cheaper track car, which for me, in 2017 at least, probably means my 1991 BMW E30 325i sedan. Not exactly the GTS, and though much slower, far less safe in all other respects.
But, maybe there is an even bigger question that needs an answer and some resolution. What about the scenario wherein I am driving this old car at a track, not having made any effort to replace any of the coolant hoses, and then drop a large amount of very slippery coolant on the track at a point where perhaps the corner worker can see my car, but not the track surface so well? I, blissfully ignorant at the moment of my "deposit," keep going out of sight. Of course, several cars then come along, somewhat in train, and the result is chaos with many cars being significantly damaged, along with injuries to some drivers.
In the above scenario, I have chosen to drive an old car that may be for the most part good enough to pass the pre-event tech inspection, as well as the on-track brief tech inspection. Before the event takes place, I need to decide whether I need to have "track insurance" for my old beast. With such a low value, it would probably cost me no more than $100 per day, maybe even less. But, I think, why even bother with it, since my car is so slow and has so little value. And anyway, this insurance does not help me at all if I take out a big piece of Armco, then receive a bill from the track. I don't even dream about dropping some coolant, brake fluid or oil. Sure, I can get billed for the clean-up costs, but all drivers have signed the required club waivers, so
I'm off the legal hook at least for the damage to their cars and their injuries. One nagging thought though: with a lot of damage to some very expensive cars, and maybe even some serious physical injures to drivers, how certain am I that all those waivers will hold up and protect me?
In this event that I caused, by some level of negligence, or arguably by some skilled lawyer for the plaintiffs, gross negligence or even willful intent, I could find myself at least needing to pay for a lawyer to defend me, and hopefully prevail. Still, good lawyers are never cheap. Ah, but at one point in the past, years ago, I was very smart, so I conveyed out nearly all of my assets with value. I mean of course I live in a very nice, and very expensive home, but I don't own it, and never have. That expensive 991- my wife owns that; I'm only a listed driver on the regular insurance policy.
My take-away, until somebody can better educate me (hopefully), is that in general the US auto insurance industry is forcing those of us who are track junkies, or even just occasional track drivers, to be exposed to very serious liability, potentially resulting in damages that we could never hope to pay. I can only speak for myself, but living in the Northeast US where the roads are congested far beyond safe use, as well as having to drive among others whose level of attention to what they should be doing is indifferent at best, I know that my car and I are incalculably safer any time I am driving on a track with other like-minded sports car enthusiasts, even when I can clearly see eyeballs in my rear view mirror.
One last thought: Those training days to help young teen drivers try to learn something about controlling a car: no way is that covered by my insurance company, at all, for anything.
I hope some of you guys will want to comment on this, so we can gain some collective knowledge. And, just maybe, there might be one insurance company in the US who still covers DE. That would be one great Christmas gift I'd really enjoy for a very long time.
kwikit356 a/k/a Norm
Up until quite recently, my insurance company (USAA) did in fact provide such coverage, as long as there was no timing for the event (other than the amount of time each run group was permitted out on the track.
In my particular case, no notice of this policy change was given or made available to me, until a friend at a PCA DE told me that USAA's policy language had changed. At the first opportunity after the week-end I called the company and was informed that the language had changed. In the representative's opinion, all track/course use is excluded from coverage. Upon actually being able to read this part of the policy I can see that it is not well written, in that perhaps a viable argument could be made that DE, at least on PCA terms and rules, could narrowly escape the exclusion.
Having said the above, I am in no position to, nor do I have any intention of, putting this policy language to a litigation test. That being the case, given the prohibitive cost of insuring (for damage to the car only; no liability or other property damage, i.e. to the track facility or other cars, and no med pay coverage, and lastly, a $5,000 deductible for damage to my car) my '15 991 GTS for a single track day, I really have no choice but to retire this car from any track use.
While many of you may not be in the same position, the primary reason I sold my '12 Cayman R to move up to the 991 GTS was to be able to use it as often as possible at the fabulous tracks in northeast North America. If this car were just a toy I could afford to write off and walk away from, dreaming of an even newer one, it would be much different. Not gonna happen.
The critical factor with specifically written track insurance is that these policies actually cover very little, but cost very much. My example application called for replacement value of my car at $150,000, which is what it cost me, including the aftermarket enhancements. The quote that "popped up" was US$1,050.00 for ONE track day of coverage. I will acknowledge that a package of multiple track days over a season would be available at some discount. But what? $850 per day?
It is interesting to me that it seems in Canada, DE, or driver training and education, is covered by regular insurance policies. One more good thing about our wonderful neighbor to the north, I guess.
Let's say I decide to sell this car, due to the fact that it can no longer be used as originally intended, and that there is a financial loss to me. Though I may have a viable cause of action against USAA, it would surely involve more time, trouble and expense than I could justify. So, it seems I have to find a much cheaper track car, which for me, in 2017 at least, probably means my 1991 BMW E30 325i sedan. Not exactly the GTS, and though much slower, far less safe in all other respects.
But, maybe there is an even bigger question that needs an answer and some resolution. What about the scenario wherein I am driving this old car at a track, not having made any effort to replace any of the coolant hoses, and then drop a large amount of very slippery coolant on the track at a point where perhaps the corner worker can see my car, but not the track surface so well? I, blissfully ignorant at the moment of my "deposit," keep going out of sight. Of course, several cars then come along, somewhat in train, and the result is chaos with many cars being significantly damaged, along with injuries to some drivers.
In the above scenario, I have chosen to drive an old car that may be for the most part good enough to pass the pre-event tech inspection, as well as the on-track brief tech inspection. Before the event takes place, I need to decide whether I need to have "track insurance" for my old beast. With such a low value, it would probably cost me no more than $100 per day, maybe even less. But, I think, why even bother with it, since my car is so slow and has so little value. And anyway, this insurance does not help me at all if I take out a big piece of Armco, then receive a bill from the track. I don't even dream about dropping some coolant, brake fluid or oil. Sure, I can get billed for the clean-up costs, but all drivers have signed the required club waivers, so
I'm off the legal hook at least for the damage to their cars and their injuries. One nagging thought though: with a lot of damage to some very expensive cars, and maybe even some serious physical injures to drivers, how certain am I that all those waivers will hold up and protect me? In this event that I caused, by some level of negligence, or arguably by some skilled lawyer for the plaintiffs, gross negligence or even willful intent, I could find myself at least needing to pay for a lawyer to defend me, and hopefully prevail. Still, good lawyers are never cheap. Ah, but at one point in the past, years ago, I was very smart, so I conveyed out nearly all of my assets with value. I mean of course I live in a very nice, and very expensive home, but I don't own it, and never have. That expensive 991- my wife owns that; I'm only a listed driver on the regular insurance policy.
My take-away, until somebody can better educate me (hopefully), is that in general the US auto insurance industry is forcing those of us who are track junkies, or even just occasional track drivers, to be exposed to very serious liability, potentially resulting in damages that we could never hope to pay. I can only speak for myself, but living in the Northeast US where the roads are congested far beyond safe use, as well as having to drive among others whose level of attention to what they should be doing is indifferent at best, I know that my car and I are incalculably safer any time I am driving on a track with other like-minded sports car enthusiasts, even when I can clearly see eyeballs in my rear view mirror.
One last thought: Those training days to help young teen drivers try to learn something about controlling a car: no way is that covered by my insurance company, at all, for anything.
I hope some of you guys will want to comment on this, so we can gain some collective knowledge. And, just maybe, there might be one insurance company in the US who still covers DE. That would be one great Christmas gift I'd really enjoy for a very long time.
kwikit356 a/k/a Norm
11-26-2016, 05:55 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Life's dangerous and full of risks. That's why I have limited myself to AX where there is nothing to hit but cones.
If/when I take it to a track I plan to drive well within my capabilities. I won't be racing, just having fun. What I mean is that YOU as the driver can greatly reduce your risk regardless of insurance.
Another option I am looking at is a 944/924 track car. Keep it street legal but very trackable and cheap.
If/when I take it to a track I plan to drive well within my capabilities. I won't be racing, just having fun. What I mean is that YOU as the driver can greatly reduce your risk regardless of insurance.
Another option I am looking at is a 944/924 track car. Keep it street legal but very trackable and cheap.
11-26-2016, 06:37 PM
#3
Banned
Get AAA. Tow I a few miles outside of the track. Problem solved. They play dirty so you do the same. They put up so many fire walls up that it's not even worth having insurance any more. Why pay if 95% of the instances aren't covered? Get creative. It's the way of the future. Fight fire with fire.
11-26-2016, 06:38 PM
#4
Nobody covers track use anymore, and they shouldn't. Either get trackday insurance or don't take anything to the track that you can't afford to toss into the dumpster on the way out.
11-26-2016, 06:39 PM
#5
Get AAA. Tow I a few miles outside of the track. Problem solved. They play dirty so you do the same. They put up so many fire walls up that it's not even worth having insurance any more. Why pay if 95% of the instances aren't covered? Get creative. It's the way of the future. Fight fire with fire.
11-26-2016, 06:40 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I am pretty much entrenched in the DE community and I can say unequivocally there are no insurance carriers remaining that cover any loss on a track or paddock. I have seen in the last few years underwriters that will insure via special letter coverage, but I never felt comfortable with that. Those that did this, no longer do it. If you want to track your car and can't absorb the loss, then specialty carriers can accommodate risk mitigation. Some of the companies with a good reputation are: OnTrack.com; RSI Insurance (writes separately but owns Lockton as a subsidiary); The Opentrack.com.
The bottom line is that tracking your car is a very expensive proposition. I spend between 5k-6k annually to insure my track activities. Then there are those other nuisance items like brakes, rotors, tires and maintenance.
The bottom line is that tracking your car is a very expensive proposition. I spend between 5k-6k annually to insure my track activities. Then there are those other nuisance items like brakes, rotors, tires and maintenance.
11-26-2016, 06:45 PM
#7
Banned
And it's not a felony to take someone's money for a product that is undiscribed as if it was a full coverage issue.
Trending Topics
11-26-2016, 06:48 PM
#8
11-26-2016, 06:55 PM
#9
Banned
11-26-2016, 07:29 PM
#11
Banned
I had travelers insurance when the president of bmw North America accidentally crashed into my car when lined up on a non timed events. It was an accident but his Allstate insurance pick up the bill no questions asked. That happened two years ago. My insurance has never noticed me of any changes since the mishap. Since then the only difference to my policy has bin terrorist related. I haven't seen any other changes. So please post up where it states on your policy that non timed events are not covered.
11-26-2016, 07:37 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I had travelers insurance when the president of bmw North America accidentally crashed into my car when lined up on a non timed events. It was an accident but his Allstate insurance pick up the bill no questions asked. That happened two years ago. My insurance has never noticed me of any changes since the mishap. Since then the only difference to my policy has bin terrorist related. I haven't seen any other changes. So please post up where it states on your policy that non timed events are not covered.
As far as posting a policy, I don't think you understand insurance very well. The policy has to specifically say it covers something or the insurance company won't pay. Insurance companies will do anything to avoid paying a large claim. If you have homeowners insurance, but it doesn't specifically say that floods are covered, then you are out of luck if a flood hits your area.
So feel free to post the part of your policy that specifically says you do can drivers education on a racetrack and its covered. I'm sure you can't, because that doesn't exist anymore.
11-26-2016, 07:47 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Travelers policy under Damage To Your Auto Coverage Section - Exclusions
Loss to “your covered auto” or any “non-owned auto” which occurs while participating or compet- ing in, or practicing or preparing for any prear- ranged or organized:
a. Racing contest, meet or rally, whether against another vehicle or against time;
b. Demolition contest;
c. Stunting activity; or
d. High performance driving or racing instruction
course or school.
This Exclusion (9.) applies only while the vehicle is at a location, whether temporary or permanent, established for any of the above purposes.
So the fact of it being timed is NOT a critical component of the exclusion.
Loss to “your covered auto” or any “non-owned auto” which occurs while participating or compet- ing in, or practicing or preparing for any prear- ranged or organized:
a. Racing contest, meet or rally, whether against another vehicle or against time;
b. Demolition contest;
c. Stunting activity; or
d. High performance driving or racing instruction
course or school.
This Exclusion (9.) applies only while the vehicle is at a location, whether temporary or permanent, established for any of the above purposes.
So the fact of it being timed is NOT a critical component of the exclusion.
11-26-2016, 07:49 PM
#14
Banned
Appreciate the information. I will check out Allstate, however you are talking about a unique circumstance. The president of BMW north america would be a powerful person, and if his insurance tried to not cover something he has a lot more influence than a regular person, so I'm not convinced allstate covers track events.
As far as posting a policy, I don't think you understand insurance very well. The policy has to specifically say it covers something or the insurance company won't pay. Insurance companies will do anything to avoid paying a large claim. If you have homeowners insurance, but it doesn't specifically say that floods are covered, then you are out of luck if a flood hits your area.
So feel free to post the part of your policy that specifically says you do can drivers education on a racetrack and its covered. I'm sure you can't, because that doesn't exist anymore.
As far as posting a policy, I don't think you understand insurance very well. The policy has to specifically say it covers something or the insurance company won't pay. Insurance companies will do anything to avoid paying a large claim. If you have homeowners insurance, but it doesn't specifically say that floods are covered, then you are out of luck if a flood hits your area.
So feel free to post the part of your policy that specifically says you do can drivers education on a racetrack and its covered. I'm sure you can't, because that doesn't exist anymore.
11-26-2016, 07:53 PM
#15
Banned
Travelers policy under Damage To Your Auto Coverage Section - Exclusions
Loss to “your covered auto” or any “non-owned auto” which occurs while participating or compet- ing in, or practicing or preparing for any prear- ranged or organized:
a. Racing contest, meet or rally, whether against another vehicle or against time;
b. Demolition contest;
c. Stunting activity; or
d. High performance driving or racing instruction
course or school.
This Exclusion (9.) applies only while the vehicle is at a location, whether temporary or permanent, established for any of the above purposes.
So the fact of it being timed is NOT a critical component of the exclusion.
Loss to “your covered auto” or any “non-owned auto” which occurs while participating or compet- ing in, or practicing or preparing for any prear- ranged or organized:
a. Racing contest, meet or rally, whether against another vehicle or against time;
b. Demolition contest;
c. Stunting activity; or
d. High performance driving or racing instruction
course or school.
This Exclusion (9.) applies only while the vehicle is at a location, whether temporary or permanent, established for any of the above purposes.
So the fact of it being timed is NOT a critical component of the exclusion.