Archimedes

Yet it didn't. And the C2S was on Pirelli street tires, while the GT4 is on Sport Cups. If you look at the lap time comparisons out there on shorter tracks, the GT4 is less than 2 seconds faster than the 991, most of which can be explained by the tire difference and/or the track size. Those cars are a dead heat apples to apples, and the first dyno tests out there on the GT4 indicate that it's making around 400hp, not the 385 Porsche claims.

All of which proves the point that the constantly parroted nonsense about the 991 Carrera having become a bloated GT car is just nonsense. It's faster than all the prior generations and its right there with the car that everyone begged Porsche to build. Once you set all the marketing and image aside and just look at the performance facts, the 991 is still a performance beast. And compared to the current non-GT4 981 Caymans/Boxsters, its simply a better performer.

Archimedes

But its not that significant, and its not all concentrated in the engine bay, nor is the 991 engine "at the end". When I drive mine back to back, anything the 991 gives up in so called balance, it more than makes up for in both grip and chassis feel. Where the Cayman is flighty and alive, the Carrera is buttoned down and serious. The slightly shorter overall body length and slightly lighter weight give me the perception of the Cayman being better in traffic, but it's really only perception, a result of the fact that the Carrera does everything with less drama. And the torque difference is very noticeable. That's probably the only thing that bums me out about jumping back in the Cayman S sometimes, it really has noticeably less power down low.

Fasttoys1

To me its Apples & Oranges. I have owned them all. Personally prefer the mid engine Cayman S design & looks until you move to a 911 GT3 version. Porsche will never make the Cayman S faster just like GM wont make the Z28 Camaro faster than a Z06. I am more concerned about P cars moving to turbo instead of N/A engines, how is the turbo going to affect the sound and drive-ability of the new Porsche's.. Cayman owners will always hear O nice car so you could not afford the 911. In the end I buy what I like & could care less what other people think, when I become concerned I will just get another Ferrari or Lambo.

997s07

The only tool one has to feel a drive is to perceive the car's movements and tendencies. What else is there? That said, the closer the center of mass is to the pivot axis the less energy is required to rotate, also one can see how the rotational inertia of masses closer to the rotational axis behave (mid engine) versus rotational inertia of masses further out of the rotational axis behave (rear engine). It is basic physics really. The reason you perceive the better nimbleness of the Cayman versus the 991 is because it is really the case.

In my opinion sports cars should not have much torque down low, they need to be wrung out to achieve the power. That is why I love my 997.1 GT3 - if the revs are below 4000 RPM, you are hurting the engine. A GT car needs power down low, like our 991. The 991 is fun to drive at any speed, but it is a sports car a little after legal speed limits and hard corners. Anything below that it is a GT car to me, and more than a few others.

Penn4S

I think the car we have been asking Porsche to build is a real full powered, proper suspension, mid engine 911.
I have a 991 4S that I wouldn't trade for either the Boxster or Cayman but a true 911 mid engine with the balance and crispness of the Cayman, with full power and internals, now I'm interested

Archimedes

You're missing my point. I'm saying that the feel and balance of the Cayman makes you think it's more nimble, when in reality it's really not. The superior chassis and grip of the Carrera more than makes up for the mid engine advantage of the Cayman.

And 'what else there is' is the actual pace each car is able to take a very twisty road (as well as track times). Back to back on the same twisty road my Carrera S corners more quickly and confidently than my Cayman S. Where the Cayman struggles a bit for grip on turn in and exit, the Carrera just bites and goes. The Carrera just changes directions so well and in such a controlled manner. It surprised the heck out of me, as I'd read all the nonsense and drank the kool aid so to speak. But now owning both and driving them in all types of conditions, it's clear to me that reality is that the Carrera is the better sports car by a good margin. $35k better? That's for everyone to decide. And note, I looooove my Cayman.

Porsche had to build a hard core Cayman, with close to the same HP, GT3 suspension, bigger brakes, wider wheels and super sticky tires in order to just nip the 'overweight, poorly balanced' Carrera S in sporting terms.

thomnellie

+1

thomnellie

If it had the same power output, it would weigh more because drivetrain and running gear would have to be upgraded to handle the extra power. I suspect the suspensions will always be somewhat different because of the different engine locations. But all this is somewhat irrelevant given that we are talking about the driving experience as they currently exist.

DNorby

if looks were all I cared about, the 911 wins every time-the Cayman is a bit ugly IMO.


if performance is all I cared about, the 911 wins every time.


if money was the issue, I would buy a used 911 every time.


I would let my girlfriend buy the Boxter.

AZ-Steve

+2 I couldn't have said it better. The 911 was a life-long dream car... and now I'm driving the dream.

THPorsche

+3. Also, that backseats do help a lot in many unplanned situation.

Valkuri

Yes. I have an autographed photo of the XB70 in my office by one of the test pilots, and an aluminum honeycomb fragment from the one that crashed in the Mohave, after Walker's F104 looped across the stabilizers during a press photo flight.
The plane was destroyed after the manufacturer wanted one of each of their aircraft to fly in formation so they could do a photo op. They wanted them to pull in close. They did. And the intense vortices coming off the drooped tips pulled the 104 in before the pilot could do a thing. The Valkyrie crew didn't even know it happened beyond a shudder, until it began to slew in the air and the other pilots in surrounding aircraft alerted them. One lived; one died. Two experienced test pilots killed for an industry photo op.

---Oh, right: Porsches. Yes. Like them. Prefer the 911.

XB-70 Valkyrie Mid-air collision June 8, 1966: YouTube(I don't know how to embed videos, sorry).

997s07

Actually, I think you're missing my point. Having less weight, having a smaller moment of rotational inertia will make a car more nimble. That's reality not perception.

The 991 has wider tires, weighs more, larger moment of rotational inertia, how is that nimble? Because it more low end torque it can power through its deficiencies? Is that what you perceive?

I love my 991, but I'm not going to call it nimble, at least for low speed city driving.

997s07

The 6 speed Getrag transmission used for the GT4 weighs the same as the 6 speed Getrag transmission in a Cayman. Furthermore, the 3.8 L engine weighs about 50 lbs more than the 3.4 engine. So it wouldn't weigh as much as you imply. For the sake of argument let's say the drivetrain weighed much more. That's not a bad thing - weight adds to tire coefficient of friction (aka the reason downforce is needed for lighter cars). One of the reasons that the 911 has more grip is tied to its weight. The Cayman needs a less flimsy rear suspension.

I'm not sure why you took the time to counter my point, then deem my post irrelevant to the thread.

thomnellie

Perhaps true if you ignore the effects of yaw and pitch and the impact of weight distribution, spring rates and tire size on them. I once read a track comparison of an older 911 against a newer Boxster with greater horsepower than the older car. The 911 won. I'll see if I can find it and will post it here if I do.