shaytun

Obviously will be at least a bit faster than C2S. But if Porsche is going to do anything official, it will be with PDK and PDCC, two options I wouldn't get. I'd be more interested in 7MT manual without PDCC against GT4

kaution321

Yes that would be a good comparison. My guess is we'll see the GT4 results soon I know the engineers has been testing in Italy with positive results and they are itching to get an official time on the ring once the weather clears.

Larry Cable

agreed... would be interesting to see what the comparative times are between C2S, GTS, GT4, GT3, thinking they will probably be in that descending order of lap time... although having said that the PDK GTS might have an advantage over the manual GT4... C2S vs GTS times will be close, unless they really work
that high end 30bhp and the added track will help thru the corners.

lap time I found for the 991 S was 7:37.9 same site (fastestlaps) claims 7:25 for the GT3.

and.... my 'old lady' to the left ... ahem ... 7:40 ... blush

jimbo1111

I believe the 7:40 time of the GT4 is official and the GT3 RS is five seconds faster than the GT3.

GTSwest

For those that have not seen it, "the getawayer" has a new GTS video review on youtube. No laps times but as always Guido's work is always enjoyable to watch and in this case, more related to everyday driving.

chuckbdc

And consider how much the standard R rated tires contribute to the difference in times.

Larry Cable

good point, rubber makes a difference ... esp since the MPSC2's are a newer gen technology than PZeros

scorcherjf

When comparing lap times I think it's best to use the most comparable times possible. In this case, the 7:37.9 time you quote for the 991 C2S is a different driver than the 7:40 for your 997.2 GT3. The most consistent tests I can find for ring times have been Sport Auto's tests (German mag). They not only list times, but also a variety of other tests like 36m slalom, Hockenheim, accel/brake, wet handling, etc. They also weigh each car (empty but fueled) and list exactly which tires each car used for the test. Most importantly, I believe they use the same driver (Horst von Saurma). Now whether or not he's the most capable driver to extract the absolute best time out of a 911 isn't too important as long as the same driver is used for the different cars.

As per their tests, they have ring times listed as follows:
997.2 GT3: 7m40 (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup)
991.1 C2S: 7m44 (Pirelli PZero)
991.1 GT3: 7m32.2 (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2)

Also, for their 36m slalom max speed:
997.2 GT3: 143km/h (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup)
991.1 C2S: 139km/h (Pirelli PZero)
991.1 GT3: 144km/h (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2)

At first glance, one would argue that the PZero's of the 991 C2S is holding it back, but I don't think they're really that much of a disadvantage. The Cup tires that came on the GT3's were not the same as the standard Michelin Cup tire but rather the N0 spec which has wider groves for better wet performance. So not only is this tire technology from 2007, the N0 Cup tire probably doesn't have much more dry grip than a modern day PZero. This can somewhat be seen by the maximum lateral G's that the cars can achieve:

997.2 GT3: 1.40g (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup)
991.1 C2S: 1.40g (Pirelli PZero)
991.1 GT3: 1.45g (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2)

Another interesting comparison with this information in mind is the wet handling course test:
997.2 GT3: 1m29.9 (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup)
991.1 C2S: 1m46.1 (Pirelli PZero)
(test for the 991.1 GT3 not available)

They explained the PZero's were quite bad in the wet, and the Cup tires were surprisingly good (I attribute this to the N0 Cup tire having wider groves for better wet performance). Anyway, I obviously have far too much time on my hands but I hope some of you can benefit from me nerding out over this data. Here are the relevant links (you'll have to use Google translate unless you can read German).
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...80.html?show=2
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...05.html?show=2
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...29.html?show=2

Also the comparison between the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tire N0 vs normal:
https://rennlist.com/forums/wheel-an...he-n-spec.html

Dcrna1

They all are quick

Larry Cable

Agreed, I wasn't vested sufficiently (i.e too lazy) to do the homework!

They are a well known benchmark for such (at least in Germany)

Horst is well known, and a very competent driver, with a LOT of ring experience. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_von_Saurma

H'mmm 991 only 7.8 secs faster over a 20.8km lap ... lets hear it for the Mezger 997.2s!!!

Thanks for spending all of your spare time to do what i was too lazy to do ... some interesting stuff!

PC Valkyrie

Sport Auto actually published a head to head comparison between the 991 C2S, 991 GTS, and 991 GT3. All had the PDK transmission. The C2S and GTS were on Pirelli PZero tires, while the GT3 was on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires. The key performance numbers are below:

C2S/GTS/GT3

0-100 km/h (s): 4.2/4.1/3.5
0-200 km/h (s): 14.2/14.0/11.6
18m Slalom (km/h): 71.4/71.5/74.4
Hockenheim laptime (s): 1.11,5/1.10,9/1.09.5

golfnutintib

Thank you Scorcher for your contribution of facts and scientific reasoning rather than conjecture.

docjohnM

I'd give up on studying the 'ring lap-times like they were some sort of religious artifact....

Too many variables to make it meaningful. Weather, atmospheric pressure, temp, all vary too greatly to make any importance out of the numbers. Not to mention different drivers will range a few seconds in the exact same car.

On top of that, everyone cheats. Well, at least all of the manufacturers do. Who knows what they do when they rent the entire track for a day, and bring in some enclosed trailer. If you think they have stock alignment, then you are a sucker. And alignment is HUGE.

And every year tire technology gets better...often by large amounts....so then why do we compare laps from 10 years ago to those of today?

Meanwhile, we're here pouring over data that varies by 0.5 seconds........