Part-1a: Tweeter Upgrade
 

Following the logic, that you get what you pay for; it makes sense to look at Burmester prices, to see where the corners got cut by Bose.
Items that cost triple are probably worth looking at.
In the case of the Bose, that is the Tweeters and Sub Driver.
Surprisingly all other drivers and amps don't have very large price differences.

You can compare component prices, on this link from Sunset Motors:
http://www.porschepartshub.com/auto-...nd-system-scat

My biggest complaint was the dull highs from the cl0ck radi0 grade Bose Tweeter in the dash.
I decided to try replacing it with the Burmester Tweeter, to see what happened.
Guess what, it worked great and sounds far better.
There is clarity and dynamics in the sound, that was missing before.

To assure it was not a placebo effect, I took measurements.
I confirmed Phase and Frequency Response.
Where Bose was rolling off at 5.5KHz, the Burmester Tweeters were flat to 8KHz and levels blended in nicely.

The main improvement is that the highs are not shrill. They just provide the desired dynamics, very transparently. The effect is like having a new set of mid range drivers.
Makes sense, since an AMT Driver has more effective surface area and frequency range, than many other tweeter types.

Before this, I could not stand to listen to Bose on Surround Mode. Now Surround Mode is kind of a toss-up, depending on taste and content.
These are my latest settings (as of 1/26/15):
Bass +2, Treble -1, Surround Off & Linear On.
(Pre-upgrade settings were; Bass -2, Treble -2, Surround Off & Linear Off.)
Although Surround Mode is better, post-upgrade, I found it's best to leave it off for best overall sound quality.
When parked, Linear On sounds better, but you may need Linear Off, when driving, to get the bass boost, to overcome road noise (just drop Bass to -1, if you do put Linear Off).

So do the tweeters just plug in?
Yes, although the connectors are different, they do work.
Line up as shown in picture and press the connector in.

I mounted w/ Factory Speed Nuts and Bolts.
Perhaps the Speed Nut is not the right part number but it works, if you grind it down.
Otherwise, it is too wide to let the tweeter body fit.
Note: the speed nuts install sideways.
Use a Grinding Wheel and take their width down (on both sides) from 15mm to 13mm.
Basically, get them as thin as you can, without over weakening the u-clip on each end.

Hardest part is removing the Tweeter Grills.
The forward and inside Grille Clips just pop loose.
However, the rear clip (nearest you) has prongs that don't let it release.
To get it loose, you need to pull the air vent, drop the air duct and squeeze that clip with needle nose pliers or similar.
Grill removal may best be left to a dealer, if you are not the patient methodical type.

If some of you give this a try, post back here and give your impression.

So here is the list of parts needed:
(2) Tweeter, 7PP 035 411 E
(6) Screw, M5 x 20: 999 073 498 01
(6) Sqeed Nut, M5: 999 507 556 01
(1) Left Gr1lle: 991 552 575 01 xxx
(1) Right Gr1lle: 991 552 576 01 xxx
xxx = Color
5Q0 = Black
4U0 = Platinum Gray
6W0 = Luxor Beige
8Y0 = Yachting Blue
OA6 = Agate Gray
3T0 = Espresso
OE1 = Carrera Red
DE1 = Umber
Of course, order from Sunset Motors. Luke knows what's up with this.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7746d6f71d.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...45ca287a4f.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f3a5a18d7f.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...523a29bd54.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f7204e9e4b.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...63a8a22b3c.jpg


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ae8a884f90.jpg

Excellent ! Can see doing this mod in the near future. T

Great idea. The same budgetary idea works in high end home audio so you are definitely on the right track.

Thanks for the photo's as a couple things pop out. One you can tell (if you know these things) just by looking that Bose uses a very cheap tweeter. Manufacturing cost is probably around a dollar! Then they further guarantee muddy results by mounting the tweeter with a cheap clip to the plastic clip-on trim! Vibration control is KEY in high-end audio, this is just abysmally poor design!

In contrast the Burmester ribbon tweeter is not only visually obviously a more serious component, they also wisely mounted it to the frame not the trim.

A couple things about that trim piece. Because its made for the Bose it has a small circular radiating area. Looks like maybe 20% of the rectangular area of the Burmester is radiating right into solid plastic. You might want to try the Burmester trim. Check first to see if its got a different shape (perforations). It should.

The other thing is the Bose tweeter fits inside a collar that goes around the tweeter which is good it does give a little extra support and allows the tweeter to fire almost flush with the surface. But this means the Burmester is firing through what amounts to a short section of pipe which nobody does. Drivers must always be mounted flush to avoid refraction and frequency effects. (If you can measure them I tip my hat to you, sir!)

It sounds like you know enough about audio to know what I'm talking about. Compared to what you've done it would be easy to dremel off that little bit of plastic. Which would just be for kicks as the real answer is the Burmester trim piece.

As for the amps and such both versions are probably depressingly miniaturized and micro processed to death versions of quality home components. But if you really want to get into something with a huge cost to benefit ratio, go through your system looking for capacitors. Space is precious in a car and the better quality caps are huge (anywhere from the size of an AAA to D size battery) but if you can replace one of those in say a crossover network, or anywhere else in the signal path, huge improvement.

Cool to finally see someone tweaking one of these systems!

Part-1b: Tweeter Upgrade
 

Hi Chuck,

I appreciate the detailed analysis and you are right, the Burmester Grille is required.
It would be silly to fire that nice AMT Tweeter through that Bose Tweeter opening.
In fact I doubt the grille would even fit over the Burmester Tweeter, due to the Bose collar.
I will add a pic of the Burmester Grill later, you will see it is very open.

I put the part numbers up, so people know what to order now.
Its about $400 in parts to do this upgrade.
You are going from a $39 Bose Tweeter to a $135 Burmester Tweeter.

If I can ever figure out where the Sub Driver is located, I may try switching it to the Burmester Driver.
Its a cool $525 vs the Bose $164.
If needed, a booster amp with a remote Volume Control Knob will be added.
http://soundstream.com/store/car-aud...st4-1000d.html
http://precisionpower.com/store/prod...l#!prettyPhoto
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091FD13....html?tp=35834

Lunarx,

You are amazing for trying this.

Please, please post the Burmeister grill installed.

I'm curious to see if everything is installing properly.

If it does, I'm definitely going to perform this upgrade. The accuracy of the higher frequency is my only complaint on the Bose. This might solve that.

$400 is not bad for this test.

:jumper:

Might be a bit tricky to access but I'm sure it is possible.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...abb139adef.jpg

Yeah, the Bose approach to audio is kind of like the Bell Labs approach to the telephone. Instead of trying to make voices sound as lifelike as possible they realized this will cost big bucks (and bandwidth), so instead lets figure out what's the very least we can do and still be intelligible. So Bose is kinda good midrange but worse and worse at the extremes. Its hard (read: expensive) doing very high and very low frequencies right, so lets just roll 'em off, with a little extra mid bass warmth they'll never even notice the real bottom end is just plain gone. What we lack in actual performance we'll more than make up for in marketing. And that's Bose.

So you're probably on the right track again with the subs. Ordinarily there'd be no way you'd be able to swap out sub drivers like you did with the tweeters. In this case though it seems the car has dictated that both systems be nearly identical in terms of shape/size and installation. It sure looks that way on the parts page you found. Good luck pulling the dash to swap them out!

Another almost always neglected area for improvement is wire. All high end systems use very specialized wire for interconnects, speaker cables, even power cords. If you've ever compared them you will know how much improvement the right ones can make. (Not all- some are awful, while the right ones, magic.) But again because the car dictates so much I bet they use the same wiring harness for everything, from Base to Burmester. If so, HUGE opportunity!

Easiest thing to check is the power cable to the amps. Because cars run on 12v they require huge gauge to conduct current. A system as powerful as Bose should have 4 gauge, which is 1/4" diameter- which I have a hard time believing they put in a Porsche. So have a look. If you upgrade this from skinny car wire to 4 ga I think you will be surprised at improvements in dynamics, detail and effortlessness you will hear.

Chuck, have you ever thought about going on the game show Jeopardy?

How do you come up with some of this material?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d889583632.jpg

Appreciate what lunarx has done above and just might go this route. Upon further review, components in both systems appear pretty small/cheesy for what Porsche is whacking us $$$ for. On a newly ordered car, I'd go with the standard $ 0 cost system, delete and look at the new Apple or Android's Car Play with built in EQ, in & outs for amp connectivity, etc. Purchase a quality 3 channel (or 2 dedicated amps), focal or equivalent component front speakers and a pair of 8" or one 10" quality sub. If capable, install yourself for huge savings or hire a custom installer familiar with 991's that will not bend you over.02 T

Seriously? Its all in the ol' noggin. Once I learned to read, off and running. Waiting for mom at the grocery store checkout I would read Reader's Digest cover to cover. The first real book I remember reading was called Red Giant's and White Dwarfs by NASA scientist Robert Jastrow. That was in 3rd grade. And yes I did understand it. By then I'd already learned about atoms and astronomy, physics and fusion, so it all made sense.

On the other hand I was very slow and backwards at some things that it seemed all the other guys got easily. Like, believe it or not, cars. When I took auto shop in high school it was not like the other guys to avoid 'real' classes but to actually learn how cars work- a subject I was miserable at and nearly failed. In fact I learned almost nothing. Until I had my own motorcycle and car to maintain. Then I learned- and realized my failure to learn had nothing to do with me. It was all down to people who never really understood what they were doing, and so not understanding were incapable of teaching. So I learned not to put my faith in authority or titles, you really need to always be questioning and thinking for yourself. Since then this has come up a million times over, from Mountaineers summit attempts blown because the 'leader' got disoriented (i.e., lost) (I knew where we were but I wasn't The Leader) to the ludicrous break-in 'debate' of science and reason vs authority.

In this case I've loved music from birth. Built my first amp at 13. Built my own turntable about a decade ago. http://www.teresaudio.com/fame/40.html Before that, designing my home theater, I tried something I hate doing, hiring a professional- actually a well-respected high-end audio place called Definitive Audio. Until I walked in on the designer penciling out room nodes and realized I'm paying this boob to do what I already know how to do…. arrgh! Its all in
These things all build on each other. Acoustics and electronics are the same in a cathedral or a car. But you can't rely too much on books (another form of 'expert' 'professional' 'authority') either. To the best of my knowledge no one has satisfactorily explained why a CD player sounds better with a phone book on it, why the soundstage is so much more palpably real when speaker cables are elevated off the floor, or for that matter why a simple power cord can transform a system. The phone book is admittedly subtle, but the others I guarantee you anyone coming over for a demo will hear -and probably be astonished at- the difference.

Its pretty cool. Nowhere near as cool as Alan Watts, but its up there.

Deleted

Do you know if the speaker impedance on the Bose matches that of the Burmeister? I've noticed that the BOSE speakers/amps often work on a different impedance.

Tony,

I don't understand what this "Car Play" is. So I did some research, and apparently it's "CarPlay" and IOS only as far as I could find. Secondly, it doesn't appear to be supported by Porsche. Unless you're referring to something else? Maybe a linkie would be helpful...

Still, I agree with your basic premise: 1) order the base system and 2) replace everything with quality aftermarket components. I've done step 1 of that process. :rolleyes:

Actually, I don't know how any of you guys can hear any music at all when traveling at speeds greater than 45 MPH unless it's just cranked up to near painful levels. There's so much tire noise coming off of this car, I can't hear myself complain about the traffic.

Still, kudos to the OP for his efforts: good write-up and excellent pics.

Isn't that really the problem, the Bose uses such a small amp. you can not just plug in JL's for instance.

I don't know enough about car electronics but IIRC, doesn't Bose use a 2ohm system ?
Tire/road noise-those big, gummy 305's are about 2.5' away from your ears. Has anyone taken off the rear fender liners for a peek ? Might be able to quiet things down a bit with some lightweight 1/2" closed cell foam adhered to inner fender liners and/or body components (did this on the 928's and quieted things down a bit) T
Took out the entire Bose system from a new 2008 Corvette and replaced with aftermarket. Sound was a lot better for not much $$. T

This is seriously great info!!!! Great thread!

A couple points regarding impedance and power. Impedance with regard to speakers represents the load the speakers put on the amp. A low impedance load will take more current (which calls for the big fat wire mentioned earlier) and in general amps have a hard time delivering current. So if for example a Bose 2 ohm driver is replaced with an 8 ohm Burmester, the Bose amp will have an easier time driving that load. Other things being equal (which they never are, we're talking in principle here) this will be heard as an improvement in ease or dynamics, a clearer, less fatiguing (hard on the ears) sound. Because the amp draws less current it will also run cooler. This is much more a concern with woofers, as thats where all the power is anyway.

Bottom line, if the Bose drivers are low impedance you'll be fine. The amp is already designed for that load and will only sound better given an easier to drive higher impedance speaker. Going the other way, watch out.

Another thing, power. People buy amps the way they buy cameras, thinking more watts or megapixels is what matters. Well then we may as well admit defeat now, the corvette has more horsepower. In all three cases there's a lot more going on than a number. Take speaker sensitivity (dB output per watt) run the numbers, turns out even at high volume levels average power is very low. One measly watt in a car probably gets you a very satisfying 95 dB or more. An amp that sounds bad almost never does so for lack of power. One reason why Robert Harley famously said, "if the first watt isn't any good, why would you want 200 more of them?"

Like yourself Tony, I've had a Corvette or two (most recently, a C6 coupe). In that car, which was my DD at the time, I pulled out all of the carpet and put in two layers of CC foam, which did knock out a lot of resonance that you get with that big hatch area, and a bit of the tire noise. I really should do the same with the Porsche. Maybe when it gets warmer outside. No, I don't have a heated garage. I live in near poverty. :mad:

A few thoughts that I've had over all of these "Bose sucks" threads.

First, in the case of most cars but especially the Porsche, weight savings is a big deal. Would this not partly explain a lot of the cheap (lightweight) components that we see? Instead of a proper die-cast speaker frame firmly mounted in a particle board cabinet, we get plastic snapped into plastic. Instead of a massive amplifier with 10 lb. heat sinks, we have a small IC board that runs at 16 ohms. Not because they want to save money and want crappy sound, but to save weight.

Now, me personally, I'd pay the 50 lb. weight penalty for a decent stereo system, but I didn't see that option in the configurator.

Second, I concur that it only takes a fraction of a watt of power to drive typical speakers at decent sound levels. I was told that the extra 200 watts is for the peaks. That's where a decent amplifier outshines a cheap one - in the ability to quickly respond to peaks in the music. Otherwise, you end up with an FM radio-sounding compressed sound, or worse, the amp clips.

I remember back in high school when I bought a booster for my incredible :rockon: aftermarket stereo system for my Pontiac. :rolleyes: The booster had 10% THD (Total Harmonic Distortion). A typical amp in those days had 0.1% THD or better. I thought it was hilarious, mostly because, really, most people can't discern 10 or even 20% THD, or don't care. Hey, it was loud, and I was a teenager.

I think I digressed somewhere...

There are no rear fender liners!!!

The big question is who will be the first to do a quick and dirty replacement of the speakers behind the door card without swapping out amps. ect? Chuck 911 seems to be saying it could be done without causing harm because of a different impedance .

Center Channel
 

I think that would sound worse.
Bose speakers are efficient and optimized to their amps.
Any other speakers would be at a disadvantage.
In another car I tried aftermarket door speakers and wound up putting the bose door speakers back in.

The only speaker in the 991 door that looked a little more expensive was the Burmester Mid. Hard to say if it could net a gain, if swapped. Since its small and possibly efficient, it might.

We got lucky on the Tweeters, because the original was clearly sub-standard, so almost anything would be better. In addition the amp power was adequate, for an efficient AMT Driver. Perhaps other efficient high end tweeters would work just as well too.

As for the sub, I think just an amp could help, as the sloppy bass may be due to high THD in the amp.
If I can get the Burmester Sub fitted (with a new amp) I would expect huge gains in bass.

I think that is the only low hanging fruit. Other speaker swaps would require lots of electronics to supplement.

When I get home Ill post the pic of the Burmester center channel vs the bose.
I decided to leave the bose center in, because it is not doing anything wrong.

Here are pics of the Bose & Burmester Center Channel.
The Burmester is a lot heartier looking but guess which one has a plastic frame and which has the steel frame?
Burmester has a plastic frame, perhaps that is why its only $58 vs the $52 Bose speaker.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6abcd1ac72.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...760afb0a33.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6b39d6f5ea.jpg

Actually, pretty much all the same stuff happens in home gear where weight is not a factor. These things are all built to a price point, period. In the case of the car the only real factor is installation/assembly. That's why it's so easy to swap out drivers like lunarx did.

Particle board is super cheap. Most speakers use MDF. Which by the way is really not all that good a material. It does however have a very benign affect on sound, is easy to work, inexpensive, and veneers into anything. But all your really high end speakers are other materials. Anyway, MDF would never work in a car, where it would be exposed to and quickly ruined by moisture.

I first thought the tweeter mounted into the frame. But looking at lunarx's photo's again it looks like it screws into dash plastic. Vibration control in audio is huge. What you're really trying to do is precisely recreate sound waves using a driver to move the air. How's that supposed to work when the driver itself is moving around? Not well, that's how!

High power and low distortion are vastly overrated. Even my very good quality 200 watt McCormack DNA amp was easily outperformed by two different 60-watt tube amps with much higher distortion ratings. A lot of this has to do with the fact that just as all watts are not created equal, nor are all THD numbers.

There are for example even and odd order harmonics. Musical instruments naturally produce lots of even order harmonics. As do tube amps. Solid state components on the other hand produce more odd order harmonics. Guess what? People are FAR more sensitive to odd order harmonics. Makes sense, as basically the even order harmonics just blend in with the same harmonics naturally produced by instruments. THD numbers lump them all together. This is one reason why so many of the high power low THD amps of the past sound so awful.

Like yourself Tony, I've had a Corvette or two (most recently, a C6 coupe). In that car, which was my DD at the time, I pulled out all of the carpet and put in two layers of CC foam, which did knock out a lot of resonance that you get with that big hatch area, and a bit of the tire noise. I really should do the same with the Porsche. Maybe when it gets warmer outside. No, I don't have a heated garage. I live in near poverty. :mad:

Great info. Poverty eh ;)

Good to know and in that case, need to have a better look both in & out. Maybe some insulated floor & tunnel wrap in the wheel wells and/or some closed cell foam in the interior is in order. This would add minimal weight and along with a new set of Michelins (when it's time) should quiet things down. Really like what lunarx has done here. Sounds like a winning combination without spending a lot of $$ T

Part-1c: Tweeter Upgrade
 

Nice to have this great commentary from the Audio Gurus, who posted here.

To answer some questions;

I updated the post w/ the new Grill Pics.I measured the DC Resistance (not impedance) of these speakers:
Regarding the Sub..More interesting is if GT3 owners can also install a sub.
If they chose to go further and put in all the Burmester speakers, they have plenty of space in the back seat area for an amp rack.

Could you verify the part # for the Burmester grills? Thanks! Great info!

Great job! Wish I had the skilz and balz to attempt this. Maybe someday???

Probably one of the very first true "mods" done to a 991 on this board. Clear amber LED corner lights excluded. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

Part-1d: Tweeter Upgrade
 

The part numbers above are right.
I attached a pic (below) of the grilles, that I ordered, with the Black Trim Code.
If you have a turbo or something, that might have other trim codes, than I showed, I can look it up for you.

The grilles came in from Germany, but with a very small fee they express shipped them.

Well, it's perhaps as "mandatory" as clear side markers :cheers:

I don't think one can get a dealer to install the tweeters, with the connector being wrong and clips needing to be shaved.
However, perhaps asking them to remove the grills, and put them in a box for you, because you want to test some different tweeters may fly with them.
Another excuse is you want to upgrade to the leather wrapped grills :rolleyes:

I suppose they would charge an hour of labor, if you did it at the same time as another paid service, like an oil change.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...54156e0869.jpg

Long as you're getting into this, a couple things about these drivers.

Metal is nice. But there are plastics, and there are plastics. Considering how much better Burmester sounds than Bose my bet is they're using something a lot better than it looks.

The rest of the driver sure looks like it. The cone is a composite, probably kevlar or carbon, where the Bose is paper. The dustcap also is better than used on the Bose. Ditto the surround. Bose looks like the same crappy foam used since like forever, that breaks up after 10-20 years. The voice coils seem to be about the same diameter, but you can tell from the side view the Burmester has greater throw length. The magnet is larger too. My bet is it sounds a LOT better than you'd guess based only on the difference in price.

Great post lunarx. Thanks.

Question - wouldn't you be able to use the old grills. Seems as if you can with some modifications - i.e. removing the speaker and grinding some plastic off?

Porsche_nuts,
The grilles are only $60 each and they have a bigger opening.
Plus, chuck911 would give you an earfull (refer to his earlier comments).

Chuck,
I would bet that the other Burmester drivers are similarly upgraded.
However, I suspect they need more power, to realize their potential, than the bose amp can deliver.
I have found that those hot types of speakers loose detail, when underpowered.

If someone wants to try this center, I am happy to send it to them.
It will need a little creativity to deal with the incompatible connectors.

I am targeting the sub as my next area of concern.

How'd you measure impedance? Do you have a 'scope?

Just static impedence, with an ohm meter.
I know that is almost pointless, as its dynamic impedence, that really matters. But thats more involved to measure and plot.

Right. You measured DC resistance, not impedance, which applies to AC and varies with frequency. Sometimes a driver with benign nominal resistance has really hard to drive imedance swings at certain frequencies. If you can get a part number for your drivers then just maybe you might get lucky and find this on-line. But really, based on all my experience, until and unless these things get way out of line they just don't matter all that much. There's no shortage of geeky audiophiles eager to take me to task for that, but actual listening experience is what counts for me. Its nice to know this stuff before you pay to play, but honestly you never really know until you do play. And then you have to go by results not theory. Which you are doing. Keep up the good work!

From what I can see with the wheels on, the rear fender liners cover approx 75% of the wells. Most of what can be covered is closer to the driver/passenger which is ideal. When finished with up front, will pull the rear wheels and see if we can quiet things down a bit. If we can quiet things down some, would like to do lunarx's mod without having to mess with the sub/amp. T

Bose Upgrade or Burmester...?
 

Thanks Lunarx for the detailed instructions. I was in a 911 and am still debating between which system to go for. In the 911 S with BOSE, I had my left knee resting against the door and the speaker area, where I guess was the mid was vibrating terribly.

Chuck911 hit the nail on the head. Curious if strengthening the area around the mids, and possibly using some sheet sound deadening material would help?

I have listened to the Burmester, and sounded clear but similar songs listened to on the Bose sounded so high pitched and tinny that Upgrading the Bose may be the best route... I also have been told that there is a lack of adjustability on the Burmester... thoughts...

What you felt was the door woofer vibrating.
There is also a mid in the door, but you won't feel it vibrating.
I would have to imagine the Burmester Door Woofer would also vibrate.
Its the same physics involved.
It is something that needs to get fixed, but open baffle woofers, in a door, are always a problem.

Anyone with the opportunity to get Burmester should take that route.
This upgrade is for those of us stuck with Bose and trying to undo some of the corner cutting, that is holding it back.
I think it sounds much better now, with this upgrade and settings.
I would still like to upgrade the sub, but I could live with it, as is, now.

BTW - I unplugged the Sub Amp (to confirm it was a sub amp) and there was still a lot of bass in the system (from the door woofers).
So that sub is handling some very low frequencies, which makes me optimistic about swapping in the Burmester Sub and a booster amp.

When I said vibration control in audio is HUGE, I wasn't just talking speakers. But speakers are the obvious one, pretty much everyone can understand, so we start there.

Yes the more you can reinforce speaker mounting areas the better. Probably your best bet with door panels is carbon fiber. First figure out what resins will bond to the door material. Then remove the door panel, mask it off, brush on resin, lay on carbon fiber, brush on more resin, and repeat a couple times near the mounting area. You could do the same for a lot less money with fiberglass, but carbon fiber has tremendously greater natural vibration control properties.

What'll really amaze you though is how much better electronic components can sound. This one was hard to believe until I tried it. Took some of my BDR Cones to an audio installer. (These are by far the single best most cost-effective tweak on the market) http://www.musicdirect.com/p-383-bdr-cones.aspx He had one of those demo rooms with amps and head units on a wall. We loosened up some mounting screws enough to place three Cones between the amp and the mounting board, and tightened everything down again. He couldn't believe it- partly because it sounded so much better than any tweak he'd ever tried, partly because you wouldn't think it would do anything at all.

Its really hard doing something like this in a Porsche. Space is just too tight. But the general principle applies. Anything you can do to make your system mounting closer to granite than plastic will help. Like carbon fiber, it doesn't have to be heavy. Just as long as its plenty stiff and non-resonant it'll do just fine.

Thats Crazy :thumbsup:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d6a557c5b0.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...145b23ae13.jpg

There's gotta be an equivalent to Poe's Law for this sort of thing...

Thanks to Lunar for the photos, because I clicked on the link and it didn't explain it at all. I still don't get it: you're saying that if you place these cones between the amplifier and whatever it's sitting on, that it will improve the sound quality of a solid circuit device that theoretically doesn't actually move during operation and shouldn't be affected by movement anyway? Seriously?

Do I have to use my Monster cables as well? :rolleyes:

Yes. I know. That was my initial reaction as well. I'm a good sensible man of science and this is pure quackery. Plus I'm a good sensible audiophile raised on decades of Julian Hirsch Stereo Review who knows all you need is some good fat lamp cord and you're all set. No way I am throwing away even $20 on such nonsense.

Then someone (audiophile, another kook) told me his CD player sounds better sandwiched between two phone books. Equally silly, but free. So I tried it.

Took the better part of an evening to be sure, but yes indeed, it did help. Marginally. I'd forgive you rolling your eyes. But there was no denying it did help.

Now at this point I would love to be able to tell you I did a bunch of research into why (which I did) and came up with some answers (which I didn't, only theories) and proceeded to logically select the ideal vibration control solutions. Which definitely did not happen.

What happened instead was I got lucky. Another guy recommended BDR Cones, I tried them, and was flabbergasted. Went crazy putting them under everything. Carried them around making a pest of myself everywhere I went.

This taught me more about people and music than Cones. For example, there are lots of guys who are perfectly capable of denying their own experience until and unless they have what they consider to be a sensible theory explaining why they should feel that way. (Ring any bells?) On the other hand there are people who don't care why or what they just want the music. One couple, the guy had me going back and forth between the two Cones and no Cones, peppering me with questions, straining and striving to get his mind around it. After the better part of an hour he calls out to his wife who had been puttering around in the kitchen the whole time. Without even coming in the room she says I don't know what you're doing but whatever it is his voice is a lot more present and clear with the one you were using before!

So I know it works. Beyond a doubt. You want to try and figure out why? Be my guest.

I've lived long enough to know not to trust my own brain that much. That's why I'm an A/B/X or GTFO kind of guy.

An interesting test would be to record the PCM data from the CD player's S/PDIF or Toslink output with and without the cones, and see if the cross spectrum shows any differences. The streams probably won't be bit-identical because of the way CD error correction works (although that shouldn't be a problem with DVD-A or SACD) but you can't fool Fourier.

I'm sorry to hear that, Noah. What is it then? Alzheimer's?

Seriously though, it would explain why you missed that in the story above, the guy's wife was the unwitting subject in an A/B/X test. She not only picked the Cones, she could tell them apart and describe their salient characteristics and differences between them.

But she was young, brain not all shot to hell. How much longer they give you?

Fortunately these types of tests are recordable which allow you to go back a few days later and see if you can really tell the differences in a blind shootout. They can also be posted online which few people seem willing to do. When I had more time on my hands I did several blind tests with cables, convertors, pre-amps etc. and could always pick out components. I found the differences between expensive cables and cheap home depot dryer cords however to be so miniscule that I stopped being concerned about them. I have some exotic cords in my recording studio but rarely reach for them over standard grade Mogamis. I do try to keep an open mind about these things, perhaps someone could post some cone/non cone audio files.

Michael Fremer has been doing this for years. He makes recordings of records played back with different phono cartridges. Carries them around with him, to shows and stuff, as a convenient way of letting people compare. Here's one story I googled up in nothing flat http://www.analogplanet.com/content/...udible-results

But here's the thing. The reason its worth doing in this case: comparing phono cartridges, especially the higher end models, is something only a tiny percentage of audiophiles will ever be able to do. Recordings like his are really the only chance for normal folks. But anyone can plop down $60 for some Cones, and lots will be able to find a shop to try them out for free.

But when you said, "I found the differences between expensive cables and cheap home depot dryer cords however to be so miniscule that I stopped being concerned about them." That really concerns me. Because, you're making recordings.

I had a party one time, playing music for a bunch of people, about half audiophile buds, half Porsche friends. Caelin Gabriel http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatur...in/caelin.html was there and demo'd some power cords for us. Every single person there not only easily heard the differences when we changed cords, but most of them (and all the Porsche people) were really surprised at how easy it was and how big the differences were. I've done similar comparisons with lots of people and components over the years. I've even had a couple people with hearing aids who were shocked to realize they too could hear these things.

In fact the ability to hear these things is so common I'm inclined to believe that if you're not getting it, its not your ears, its your system.

This can happen. I had a friend, lifelong audiophile, half his home devoted to his hobby. Several times he brought over interconnects he had made, believing he could do 'just as good' as the pros like Caelin. Every time you could see the shock and disbelief on his face. As he told me nearly every time, when he tried them at home they sounded nearly the same. But on my system it was easy to hear the pro cable sounded a lot better. Wider, deeper soundstage. Greater palpable presence. More liquid, with greater separation between instruments and a blacker background. http://www.stereophile.com/content/s...ssary-glossary

If you've done like he did and built yourself a system that can't resolve the difference between dryer cord and even an old used Synergistic Research http://www.stereophile.com/content/s...-john-atkinson Master Coupler power cord, well you've got your work cut out for you. But trust me, it can be done.

Cables are probably the easiest to do these tests with. As far as my system, the samples were run through both my Lavry Gold and Weiss studio convertors which were about as good as there was at the time. The differences in the recorded signal were small no matter what cables I used. I find tests like the phono cartridge one you mentioned to be pretty useful and yes, you can hear the differences. There are several for mics and pre amps as well, but very few high resolution audio clips for cables (or cones) that I've been able to find. I know this is way off topic so sorry about that. I'm with the original poster on upgrading the Bose, just not sure I would bother with new wiring, especially in a car.

Lanarx,

Any chance you could provided a step-by-step for the tweeter switch out?

Thanks from us all.

D

Whew . . . you guys are making my brain hurt you are all so smart.
And here I was so excited that my Bose Surround Sound was almost as impressive as the Vibrasonic I installed in my '57 Ford in 1966:)

But how is this any different from what would have happened if you had invited any other parlor magician to your party? Have you seen what a good stage hypnotist (or revival preacher) can do?

If the test wasn't properly blinded -- and no, that doesn't mean somebody's wife walked into the room and asked what changed -- then it's impossible to use it to say anything definitive about the equipment being tested.

If there were any other way, the drug companies would be all over it. Nobody hates blind testing more than they do, because strictly-controlled blind testing is difficult, expensive, time-consuming, and only makes it slightly easier to get at the real truth.

I'm just not sure I would bother with any of this stuff in a car! :roflmao: Its a horrible environment dominated by hard reflective surfaces, noisy as hell, impossible to ever get right because you're sitting way off center- and then on top of all that if you somehow do get it right your reward is entrancing music that draws you in… distracting you from the one thing you're there to be doing in the first place: driving! Its borderline insanity! Especially considering you can do a whole lot better sound wise with an iPod and a pair of Sure SE-535's.

But lots of people do it anyway. So they might as well at least do it right.

Wire in a system is huge, every bit as important as any other component. In cars though its very hard to audition. Measurements are useless, an absolute waste of time. The only way to know is to listen. Audition. But doing this in a car is near impossible.

That's why the one wire I suggest checking and upgrading is the power supply going to the amps. Because cars run on 12v not 110v like at home, even though the car system requires just as much power (read, current) as the home system, the power supply wire must be several times larger diameter to carry that load.

There are worksheets one can use to determine the required gauge. The last system I did called for 4 gauge, nearly as large as car battery cables- and that was for about a fourth the power of the Burmester system. In reality both Burmester and Bose are well into the range where a lot of pro installers would start using auxiliary battery and charging systems when the goal is a true high end system.

Not that that's what I'm recommending. I'm just trying to help everyone understand the importance of wire and just how much room for improvement there is even with a very good factory system.

Part-1e: Tweeter Upgrade
 

I don't know about a step-by step, but here is some more detail on grille removal.

I like using string laced thru the vents (at least 3 lacings worth) to pull the grilles up. It keeps one from putting pry marks in their dash.
Keep in mind, only the 2 forward clips by the windshield will release.
Target the top inside clip first.
Once it is up put blue tape down on the dash feeding into the grille opening.
You may need to use a hotel card key or other pry tool to work the top outside clip loose.
Once it is up put more blue tape down on the dash and into the grille opening.
The bottom rear clip, closest to you, won't budge and don't try to pop it yet.

Now you need to pull the dash vent.
To get to it, first pop off the trim just below it.
A plastic hotel key works well as a soft pry tool.
Just be careful not to scuff the dash leather.
With the trim off, you can just pull the dash vent out.
Grab it from the side and pull it out, it takes some force.
Then undo the sensor wire.

With that out, you can see the plastic air duct.
Pull it down so you can see the bottom of that grille clip.
You will see, the air duct has 2 rubber grommets retaining it to the dash above.
With the duct down, you will see the prongs on the grille clip, that are keeping it from releasing.

Get someone to use string and/or a pry tool to keep gentle pulling force, on the grille, from the top.
Then squeeze the prongs on that clip with some long needle nose pliers.
The grille will pop out after that.

The air duct can be snapped back into place, after the grille is released.
Just make sure both rubber grommets (from the air duct) re-engage.
One grommet is further in and harder to see.

That is it really.
Maybe if someone local wants to do this, I can assist them and then more pics can get posted.
Or, if someone gives it a try, they can add some more comments.

Good Luck do-it-yourselfers :rockon:

Part-2a: Sub Woofer Upgrade
 

Burmester Sub received & Bose Sub removed...

Here is the comparison:

Bose / Burmester

DC Resistance: 4.0 Ohms / 3.5 Ohms
Size: 5" / 5"
Surround: Foam / Rubber
Basket: Sheet / Cast
Magnet: Small / Large
Price: $164 / $525

Take comfort knowing the Bose Sub is not adding any weight to your car.
The Burmester is a brick by comparison.
Although, I expected a fancier speaker for $525, I am glad to see the Burmester has good old fashioned Spade Terminals, to make wiring connections easier.

I'll find out soon, if the Bose amp can drive it or if I will need to add an aftermarket amp.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...11e511e96b.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8d85f09f0b.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c3e7c293da.jpg

Wow.

Thanks Lunarx.

That pic tells the entire story by itself including the difference in weight.

Many, many years ago when I was maybe 10 I was with my father and we were at a audio shop in town. He told me to pick up a home audio speaker, I can't remember the brand and then told me to pick up a JBL speaker of similar size and it was twice as heavy. He smiled and told me heavy means more expensive and better quality. Of course there are exceptions in life but when it comes to audio products, it's always true.

Please keep us updated. & Thanks!

Yes, CarPlay is Apple technology to allow your car system to display information from your iPhone. (Apps have to be specially adapted for it, however.) The Android version is called Android Auto (not to be confused with Google Car). Neither is currently supported by Porsche, although Volkswagen has announced that it will support both. (The car system just needs a small "stack" running on it to interface with the phone.)

Alpine and Pioneer have aftermarket systems available that support CarPlay. I'm not sure if anyone has an aftermarket system supporting Android Auto yet, but they are probably coming, and future Alpine and Pioneer systems, at least, will probably support both. I don't know how well the Alpine or Pioneer systems would fit into a Porsche.

Part-2b: Sub Woofer Upgrade
 

Bermister Sub installed.
Part# 991-645-575-00

So how does it sound?.......

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...18a3055d2c.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b7777e437a.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...54d9f5a1da.jpg

Holy Cow Batman :rockon:

Settings had to change to:
Bass: -1, Treble: -1, Surround: On & Linear: Off.
No booster amp will be needed, the Bose Sub Amp powers it fine.

Got a couple hours listening to it and it's beyond amazing, for what it is.
I'll follow up with more details later....

Edit: Update on Settings;

Bass: +4*, Treble: -1, Surround: OFF & Linear: ON.

This seems to clean up the boomy mid-bass and makes vocals sound much more natural.
Although it may not have the same initial punch, it is more plesant to listen to over long periods of time.
I can't go back to the old settings now.

Bass needs to vary a bit, depending on content, but all other settings should be kept for optimum vocal clarity.

thanks for the really useful post.

How hard was it to remove and install the sub?

I think the sub has its own amplifier. I am thinking about doing a full swap and change all the speakers if it is not too hard?

Part-2c: Sub Woofer Upgrade
 

The sub was a bit of a pain to R&R, but no big deal, if you are determined and don't trust anyone else to do it.
Removal was under 1hour.
Install, was a bit longer, to deal with wiring.

robbieracer gave a very good explanation on Sub-woofer Removal & quite a bit more....
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...son-focal.html

His sequence of steps was exactly right.
I will only add that; you need to loosen the lower dash (1 side & 2 bottom screws), to get the right airbag screw out. If needed, you can get more play, from the lower dash panel, by poping loose some retaining clips, below the gauges, (after removing the trim strips).

But in order to get that lower dash panel loose, you first need to remove this center console side panel.
Luckily it was explained here by plenum:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-part-1-a.html

After that, there is a plastic piece, at the leading edge of it, that needs to also be removed.
For this it's just one torx screw removed and then it just pulls out.
Pull straight back on it.

Also, I decided to just pull the lower air duct, all the way out, to make more room to work.

I was able to plug into the existing Bose Sub Amp (using my "custom" adapter harness) and the Bose Sub Amp handled it fine.
The sound settings (above post #55) were key in sending enough low frequency signal to the sub, as there was almost no bass with Linear ON.

I don't know that you "need" a complete speaker swap, I think the Sub and Tweeter were all that needed to change.

Although expensive, this Burmester Sub must be custom designed to work in the 911's dash cavity.
I don't see how else it could work as well as it does.
It's far superior to the old Bose Sub.

It plays to its advantage of a small and light cone, as you can experience a crisp little shock wave on percussion instruments.
It also extends fairly low for for such a small driver.
It won't rattle the neighborhood apart, but it sounds great at reasonable listening levels.
Burmester really did an amazing job designing that Sub Driver.

Hats off to Bose too, as the system is solid and was just handicapped by low end Tweeters and Sub.
It had enough amp power and adjustability to work with these upgraded drivers.

If you think about the 991 system, you have off-axis tweeters bouncing sound off the windshield, off-axis mids firing into your thigh and door woofers trying to generate mid-bass lows, without proper dampening.
The sub was probably the only speaker system done right, although it had a major size restriction.

In the end, I don't think it's possible to get much better, outside of a major system overhaul.
This was only a $1K investment, uses factory parts and the result is what one would expect from a high end car.
Truthfully, it exceeded my expectations :thumbsup:

lunarx, quite impressive. If you no longer need the Bose sub, I'd be very glad to inherit it from you....(?) My 991S has the base audio, without a sub. I wonder if I can either add the Bose sub or perhaps use its enclosure to mount a different sub - like robbieracer had done. A while back I had a PM exchange with him, where he thought it'd be doable. So, I'm considering adding the sub, along with a small amp to drive it, perhaps. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

Wish I lived closer to Lunarx. I'd give him $2,000 and a case of double black IPA and say "go at it, Master Obi Wan!".

Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

Well done. And thanks again for the photos. They show why the two drivers perform so differently. Bose uses a small magnet and voice coil to drive a cone mounted in a huge foam surround. The small magnet can't very well control a cone that size. The cone falls behind on transients, overshoots on impulses, resulting in wooly bass. Burmester uses a much larger magnet and voice coil. Not only larger, more powerful. The giveaway is the vent screen on the pole piece to improve cooling at high power output. This is the way to get powerful tuneful accurate bass. People don't usually describe bass response as "crisp" but I get it when you use that word. Its that much faster than Bose.

This is what gives music its drive and energy, what gets you tapping your foot. You'll get even more of that with Burmesters midrange drivers. The midrange after all is where its at. But its also the one area that Bose did, uh, a whole lot less bad than the rest. So you are probably right, your bang for the buck factor might not be quite as high.

As you've done so far I seriously doubt there's anything else you could have tried that would work so well for the money. Especially considering it was all bolt-in with no car mods needed. And again, terrific write-up. Thanks!

Same here. I like what I see!! I want!!!

But the technicalities of it is way over my head.

ctporsche, I'd be happy to send that Sub to you.
Just do let me know how it turns out.
robbieracer is definitely a hero, I can't even imagine how good his system must sound :rockon:

I'll say that robbies Focal Sub is also a $500 speaker, but a beautiful work of art.
What a shame to hide it under the dash.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_09113WS...WS.html?tp=111
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b3b1a53602.jpg

However, at that price point, the Burmester sub might be worth looking at.
Something else I noticed, was that the 5" Focal Sub was a little smaller, than the Bose, requiring new mounting holes, on a smaller diameter bolt circle.

Not sure, but perhaps this JL 5-1/4 could align better with existing mounting holes.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_136C552...cw.html?tp=111
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7a69bc3fe9.jpg

If JL has a cut-out template, you could compare to the Bose hole pattern.
It also has a better cost, so maybe 2 advantages.
Sound wise, it may not be in the same league as the $500 choices, but you never know.

I listed some amps in an earlier post [#4].
I believe you would feed their High Level Inputs, from the L&R Door Woofers.
You could gain access to those wires under the passenger seat.
You may need to pull the door card to get the wire colors and then of course confirm with a test signal.

Cool thing, about adding an amp, is you can then pick your Sub Crossover point and add a remote Gain Knob.
I was looking forward to all that, but since the Bose Amp did such a great job, I decided to let it be.

Please keep me posted and let me know if I can be of any help :thumbsup:

Yo LexVan & STG991,

There is not much I won't do for a case of double black IPA :biggulp:

I hoped I didn't make any of it seem over complicated, as I believe anyone here could do this project, if they wanted to.
I would gladly help someone local.

For those not nearby, feel free to ask about any part, that needs more clarification, and I will gladly elaborate further.
I admit, I did learn some things the hard way.
Even those kick panels have a trick to removal, that it not so intuitive.


chuck911,
You are right about the midrange.
I think that is why I drop the tweeter level, so as not to drown out the mids.
I believe the mids mostly have issue, because of being low and back in the door.
That is a lot of physical separation from the tweeters, so the time alignment is thrown way off, in addition to being very far off axis to the listener.
Bose Surround Mode seems to mask the timing issue (otherwise I would not use Surround mode).

With all this change in the system, I might appreciate a reality check of getting to listen to a stock Bose system again, for comparison.

With each change a new area becomes the weakest link.
Right now I'd say that is, the Door Woofers, and they are honestly not too bad (just a tad loose).
If I ever get the door cards off, I may consider retrofitting the Burmester Door Woofers.
At that point, I might add an amp, to drive the Door Woofers and the Sub.
Or I might just quit, while I am ahead... :burnout:

Quit while you're ahead. Except I still think it'd be worth checking out the power supply wiring to the amps. If they are (it is?) small gauge and not too hard to replace that'll be worth a shot.

Thanks. You are the best, lunarx. I will research and contemplate my choices (but probably once my 991S comes out of winter hibernation...) and will keep you posted... I better send you some double black IPA.

Interesting and detailed post thanks.

As a reference point you guys may also like to check out the install I did in my Boxster. Being a sound engineer I was never happy with the BOSE and ripped the entire system out and went with the best components I could find, not only for the best quality sound but also to be able to hear the flaws in songs so I can hear where they need to be improved.

The components I chose were also chosen by other world class producers and musicians whom Auto Audio in London have done installs for.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1125944

As of last week I have moved the install from my Boxster (now for sale) to my CLS55 and with an improved sound stage it sounds even better.

Never heard an audio engineer use the term "sound stage". Thought that was strictly for audiophiles.

So It seems I got lucky and won a full set of the Burmester speakers removed from a 2014 car for £150!!!

So I think I will swap all the speakers, do I need to change the grill in the back or are they the same?

I assume if I do a complet swap I should really change both amps? Any idea if the car will needed to be coded? Does the Burmester have any other parts other than the obvious?

Sorry for all the questions.

Cool, it seems like some of you will be getting into this.

I updated my post #57 with some extra info on how to get the lower dash panel loose for sub access.

normantooth, it seems you scored on those speakers.
to answer some of your questions:

According to PET, I don't see any difference in rear speaker grills.
It seems one grille works for all sound system options.

I'm not sure about PCM being coded to the amps.
I only know that I unplugged my Sub Amp and the PCM seemed none the wiser.

I thought about changing my Sub Amp to the Burmester Sub Amp but I worry the connectors won't match.
Same for the Main Amp.

The Bose Sub Amp appears to use very standard wiring:
Power, Ground, Signal In (not sure if it's Hi or Lo level), Speaker Out and Remote.
That makes it easy to replace with an aftermarket amp, if desired (with just basic splicing of wires).
Below are the pics, I took of the Bose Sub Amp.

Aside from the Speakers and Amps there is a specific PCM, for Burmester.
However, that might just be a flash.
Either way, low probability of getting the dealer to re-flah it.


clutchplate, what an awesome system!!!
I wish I could do that.
Did you meet the criteria that for a system to be awesome it has to exceed the value of the car? ;)

Edit: Now that I took more time reading your linked post;
Your system cost was far less than I thought.
Seems like a huge bang for buck.
I like that you kept it to the minimum quantity of speakers and used the best stuff.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9609447cb0.jpg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b19688866d.jpg

Thanks.

The harness for Sub amp looks to be different but I think the harness for the main amp appears to be the same.

I will call me dealer and see if they can give me a bit more info.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

It is. Every once in a great while though an engineer happens to also be an audiophile. See: Doug Sax. Lightening may have struck twice.

Or then again he may have been talking about the Mercedes.

Lunarx,

Nice work. Let us know if you do the door woofers and amp. Thanks!

Tagged: moose, munchkin, molotov

Dan (tags for future reference)

Having read nearly all his books, I give that a big :thumbup:

So good to hear from another Alan Watts fan. I haven't read his books, only listened to hours and hours of his talks on youtube. He may be dead, but his thoughts are very much alive. Which is fitting I guess for the man who said you never really die, you are the eternal thing that comes and goes.

Excellent post Lunarx!

Ya someone here mentioned before that the culprit was the Bose Tweeters.

But here you are saving the day!

Thanks for sharing.

Last 2 questions,

If I change all the speakers do you think its ok to run them from the bose amp for now until I find a Burmester amp?

Also do you think I will need to change both the speaker girls in the front door or just the one that has the Burmester silver trim on it?

thanks for the help

Base system thoughts? That is what is in my car...:confused:

Lunarx, where in SoCal are you? Would love to pick your brain, hear your system and share an IPA with you.

Let me know, please.

Thanks,

Steve

PS: I'm mid city, just south of Beverly Hills.

I don't think you will have any major problems running the Burmester speakers, off the Bose amp.
Worst case is the level matching, between drivers, might be off.
EQ curves are hopefully not too different.
May as well see how it sounds, before investing the time and money into an amp refrofit.

Would you mind posting pics of your Burmester drivers?
Perhaps front and back shots.
Also, if you could get a close up of the electrical connector, on each speaker, that would be good reference also.
(You can skip Tweeter/Sub/Center, since I posted those already.)

I'll check on the door speaker grilles, to see if there are any additional part numbers, specific to Burmester.
My guess is door grille would only need to be changed for cosmetic reasons, of getting the fancy Burmester logo trim.

It would be even cooler to upgrade a Base system.
If the sub can be retrofit, that would be good news to lots of people.

I'm in San Diego, but I get up to LA fairly often.
I'll contact you, so we can arrange something.

Front door speaker

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...535f924fcb.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0750059a95.jpg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6efc24c7c1.jpg

Small speaker, there are 2 of these in the front door, and 2 in the rear doors.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...72f984b3d8.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...78934462ae.jpg




https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...723495f395.jpg


Rear Tweeters

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2b50365061.jpg

One worry was that the impedance is different, the bose tweeters are 4ohms and the burmester are 6.

The centre bose is 4 vs 2.

Do you think the amp would be a straight swap or is there more involved ?

I definitely want to change at least the sub amp as the burmester is 300w vs 100w for the Bose

Thinking about installing the Burmeister tweeters up front as lunarx recommends, and disconnecting the Bose sub. Install either a Blaupunkt XLF (300W self amplified) sub or the Kicker 11HS8 (150W self amplified) 8" sub tucked in behind rear seat. T

edit: Went with the Burmester subwoofer as recommended here. T

Also I forgot to say I managed to swap the sub without taking out any of the trim at all.

Awesome! Can't wait...let me know...

Steve

normantooth,

Thanks for posting those Burmester pics.
Now I am considering swapping out my Bose Door Woofer for that Burmester.
So I am now anxiously waiting to hear your results :corn:

Well, our friend Chuck991 could elaborate on this more....
Short version is that we are only measuring DC Resistance and not Dynamic Impedence.
Therefore, these numbers have little bearing on what the true amplifier load is, when the driver is operated in its intended frequency range.
I believe the Bose amp has enough power to handle the load of the Burmester speakers, based on my experience with the Tweeters and Woofer.

As you change more speakers the only real worry (IMHO) is level balancing and appropriateness of Bose EQ Curve, for the Burmester speakers.
That's why I was not going after midrange speakers, since they are "less bad" (as Chuck991 would say) and I figured the reward/risk ratio was lower there.
However, chances are high that the Burmester mid drivers are still going to sound better.

I'll tell you the Bose Amp is putting out plenty of bass w/ the Burmnester Subwoofer, so I don't know that you "need" the Burmester Sub Amp.

I highly doubt it will just plug in since the Burmester Amp has a different housing (bigger) and very likely a different connector (as did all the speakers).
There is a way around the connector issue, if you are willing to make an adapter harness.

The next concern becomes the input sensitivity of the Burmester Amp.
We don't know if it will be set to work well, with the Bose input signal level.
Again, a simple level adjusting adapter can fix that too.

I just thought an aftermarket Sub Amp might make more sense, before taking on any of the above measures.

Then again there is a small chance the Burmester Sub Amp could just plug in and work perfectly :rolleyes:
It's only a $275 risk if you want to buy the Burmester Sub amp and give it a shot.
I was thinking about rolling the dice on it myself.

I'm incredibly impressed :cheers:
Not sure how you managed to work around the lower airbag.
Did you at least remove the lower air duct?

I suppose a pair of those would look kind of cool on the rear package shelf :rockon:

Thanks for the detailed response.

No I did not remove any air ducts or any parts at all. But my car is a RHD and the sub is on the right and side. I dont know if its the same with you?

This is amazing guys. I've been following intently keep it coming. I may take the plunge into this territory with the GT3 soon.

Interesting.....
My sub is on the left side.
Perhaps your right side mounting allows more room.
My guess is, its because the electrical is different, on the right side.
The electrical items, on the left side, were the major cause of interference for me.
I had to unclip and move most of the electrical things out if the way.

In PET they do list LH & RH subs, but they are the same part number.

This means, based on driving side orientation, they must either;
block-off the unused sub opening
or
not even machine it out.

If the latter, I wonder if all base and GT cars will have the sub opening machined out or not?

I'm watching this with interest and in fact have made contact with normantooth (we live nearish to each other).

Hopefully I will do this to my car.

Out of interest, (it has been a while since I really got into real Hi-Fi), I remember something about tweeters working best in matched pairs. Would this be the same for the Burmester? I have been offered one secondhand tweeter and will have to buy another (new) to match it, will it be unbalanced? I think I had to bed in (run in) my old Howard speakers for this reason?

Tom

Tom I would assume not because they are not sold in Pairs by Porsche and each one should be identical to the next.

My OPC is going to find out if they can fit the Brumester amplifier for me tomorrow, If they can I will change all of the speakers. Failing that I am so far very happy with upgrading the tweeter and sub.

normantooth,

So you have the Tweeters and Sub in now?
If so, how would you rate the improvement?

Yes all 3 are in and I feel its quite a big improvement I would still like to at least upgrade the amp for the Sub.

Porsche are going to get back to me today and let me know if they think they can do the Amp upgrade for me.

You probably already know this, if you took your door panels off and swapped door speakers already.

From what I see in PET, the door grilles are part of the door and the entire door panels are different between Bose and Burmester.

The Burmester Door Panel is cut to fit the Burmester Trim piece.
Who knows what else might be different.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ccd5980f7d.jpg

Even for the Bose Door Panel, the Bose Logo was listed separately and the Bose door panel's grille must have holes to fit that Bose logo.

It's possible the only difference in the panels could be just fitting for the trim pieces, but it's anybody's guess.

Yes you can start a new thread, "love your base." I ordered a base system since I knew I wanted to upgrade the sound system eventually.

Thanks for the info on the grills.

I have decided to stop here and not do any more. At very max I will do the sub amp nothing more. I am happy with the system now.

normantooth, I'm glad to hear this worked out for you.
I agree that there is not much wrong with the sound, at this stage of upgrade.

If you dont mind sharing your settings, I'm curious what you wound up with, since everyone seems to have different tastes.

So after carful consideration I have decided not to change my speakers from Bose to Burmester and have the following available for £180:

1 x Burmester Sub
1 x Burmester Tweeter
2 x Burmester Mid (door)
2 x Burmester Sub (door)
1 x Centre

Please PM me for details.

Am I correct in saying that the UK Burmeister sub would be a reverse of the US subwoofer and not fit properly ? PM sent findtom. T

Per PET; LH & RH sub had the same part number.

Yep, but we all know how PET works, or doesn't at times. I already PM'd findtom (UK) and requested a reply e-mail with pics to confirm if the BM sub has the same physical dimensions/mounting points as the US spec. Don't want to run into any install issues. Also, findtom has (BM) 1 sub, 1 tweeter (1 more needed), 1 center channel, 2 BM door mids, and 2 sub doors for sale. From what I have read above, the center channel, door mids & mid-subs could stay and no need to replace ? Seems the rear speakers are pretty much worthless at this point so just disconnect those (better soundstage I am guessing ?) and skip the smallish 5" BM sub and go with a self amplified 8-10" sub ? Your thoughts are welcome. T

Sorry forgot to repsond, I decided not to bother upgrading anything else now as I am happy with the car as it is now. So just the 2 tweeters and the sub.



It should work just fine its the same part number and if you compare the photo of toms one to the one posted in this tread they should look the same.

Bass: +2, Treble: -1, Surround: On & Linear: Off.
Bass: +2, Treble: +1, Surround: On & Linear: Off.

I am stell messing around to see what I like.

Thank you the reply. Consensus sounds like I should do the same. Approximately how many hours for above install ? TIA T

For those of you planning to upgrade, I ended up having to wait about a month for my tweeters and grills to come in, so you might be waiting for parts to come in from Germany. I'll be swapping my tweeters in the next week once I get my parts. I'll try to take some pictures of the grill removal, etc.

More pics of this install along with what lunarx has already done would be great :) TIA Tony

+991

Holy Smokes! I've had to decrease the bass on all sources and keep the treble flat. I listen to Apple Lossless on my iTouch, Pandora 192k off my phone and HD FM pretty much in that order. Of course the engineering on some albums really pushes the bass.... I agree with Linear off. I've been switching between live and surround depending on the source and source material.

On the whole I find the Burmester one of the three best car audio systems I've had over the past 45 years including some custom work as a hobbyist.

Twtters I would say 1 to 2 hours and sub around the same so maybe 3 to 4 hours in total. Much faster if you have done it before.


Yes some times I have to turn the bass down to -1 its a little dependent on what I am listening to.

We took delivery of a new Panamera yesterday with Bose and I really hate the sound now lol.

Thank you normantooh. findtom (UK) just listed his used BM parts on ebay. It appears there is an "R" designation on the UK model subwoofer even though US & UK share the same P/N. Middle & bottom pics below are US/left hand drive. T

So I finally had some time to replace the tweeters on my car. Here are a few pictures of the process:

Place some tape on the black plastic piece at the side of the trim under the driver's side vent. You can then pry from the side and remove the rest with your fingers.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9b2c4b60a6.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f727fc7ea5.jpg

Next, grab the side of the air vent with your finger tips and pull on it. It should start to move and open a space in the front where you can continue pulling or insert a pry tool to release the spring loaded clips.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...94532a6f94.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f4b509d754.jpg

Now you will see the air duct. Just push down from above and the posts will release from the rubber grommets. This will let you see the clip that is very difficult to release when removing the speaker grill. You can see the clip just above the middle of the duct.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8896241597.jpg

Now, place a thin plastic card in the front right edge of the speaker grill and then pry that corner up. Once I did this, i was able to slide my fingers under the forward left corner and pop that clip up also.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...46a74f6a2c.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8c40f89c8c.jpg

Now from the air duct area, reach the last clip with long needle nose pliers and squeeze the two sides while pulling the grill from above. After a few squeezes mine finally popped out allowing me to remove the speaker.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7ac5e8ea60.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6518a42f53.jpg

Now you can install the new tweeters! This is what I used to install mine. I bought them at Lowes. They have some hardware drawers with automobile fasteners. You'll need the #8 U-type speed nuts and #8 pan head screws. 1 inch screws probably work best, although I was able to use 5/8" screws.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c98f91a1d3.jpg

To insert the speed nuts onto the plastic tabs, you will need to pry them open a bit with a screwdriver because the plastic tab is quite thick.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f2db26e7ab.jpg

As you screw the #8 screws in, you might need to reach in from the duct area to make sure it is going through the bottom part of the speed nut.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...44dc6e5323.jpg

Once everything is tightened down, you can install the grills. Notice that there is a tab on the side of the grill facing the center of the car. This tab needs to go in under the edge of the dash first, before pressing the clips into place.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68cf09b13a.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b93eb81a09.jpg


All done! Oh BTW, Once I turned the radio on, it sounded like a whole different system. I finally had much better lower high range/upper mid range/vocals. It's much easier to hear the music at lower volumes. Definitely worth the money spent on the upgrade! Thanks to LunarX for being the pioneer for this upgrade!

Thank you very much for the pictorial. If installing the BM subwoofer, would it be easier to do this WIT ? TIA T

Wow! This is an amazing step-by-step. Thank you so much for the pictures and explanation. It makes this project much more approachable. I am definitely thinking of the upgrade now!!

Two questions
1. How long do you estimate this taking?

2. Where did you get the new tweeters from - and if I may ask - the cost?

Thanks again!!

I have one Burmester Tweeter left if anyone interested.

Awesome mtony - great write-up and pictorial. Thanks to Lunarx too on this meaningful mod!

I purchased my tweeters and grills from Sonnen for $356 plus shipping ($24 to Atlanta). The first side took about an hour mainly because I was worried about breaking something. The second side took around 15 minutes. I don't think I'll change anything else. This makes the Bose system acceptable while I previously thought it was terrible. I think the system still needs improvement of the upper low range and lower mid range, but I'm not willing to spend any more on it at this point.

BTW, even with just the driver's side Burmester tweeter installed the difference was quite noticeable. Someone might want to pick up that single tweeter that's for sale!

Nice job mtony!

What are some Chicago area Rennlisters going to do this mod? I'll hold the flashlight and supply the double Indian pale ale.

Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

Any pics on the removal of the grill on the passenger side?

No pics, but it's basically the same as the driver's side.

Thanks! 15 minutes - wow - worth the investment of time and $$ if I can start to enjoy my radio. The Bose system is really terrible and if this is all it takes to make it enjoyable, I'm all in!

I dont know if anyone else noticed but the quality of the grills for the Burmester tweets was much better than the old bose ones.

The only down side is that we took delivery of a Panamera S E-Hbyrid last weekend and its only got the bose setup which now sounds really bad to me. Burmester is not a option on the Hybrid cars unfortunately.

Really nice to see mtony's great post on this and shared experiences from others, who did the upgrade.
So far, its unanimous that the improvement is dramatic.

normantooth, I imagine the lack of Burmester on hybrid cars is due to the huge current draw of the larger BM amplifiers.
Bose amps are quite a big draw also, as I see the battery voltage drop very quickly if running the Bose system with engine off.

Nevertheless, the upgrade path on a Panamera should be the same. You should at least be able to upgrade tweeters (which shouldn't raise current draw any more than now).
If you think you want to pursue that, let me know and I can check PET for part numbers.

Hey guys, I still have one Burmester Tweeter left on eBay if anyone would like it. It's going cheap!

Regards,

Tom

Part 3 - Sub Woofer Amp
 

Now that I switched back to Linear ON* (to avoid the muddy mid-bass boost) I decided it was time to try fitting an aftermarket Sub Woofer Amp to give the Sub a bit more natural punch.

Something I found out; the vast majority of the bass is handled by the door woofers.
You would be shocked, that with the sub disconnected you can barely tell the difference.
This is why the Base system sounds nearly as good as the Bose.
However, when you have content, with deep bass, then you can hear the sub lending a bit of help.
(In other words, the Burmester Sub is slightly under-driven by the Bose Amp).

Naturally, I thought I could make that situation better, with an aftermarket amp that lets me adjust Sub Gain and Low Pass Frequency.

I have to say it turned out quite nice :thumbsup:
It seems like I doubled the Sub volume with lower Bass settings (on PCM), so now the Door Woofers are doing less bass work (especially considering that Linear Mode is ON).

My new settings are now:

Bass: 0, Treble: 0, Surround: OFF & Linear: OFF. / Updated 7/1/15

*Bass notes: / Updated 7/1/15

• Turns out Linear Off is needed to give the extended deep bass anyone doing this mod wants to hear.
  >The trick was lowering the Sub Gain & crossover frequency (to roughly 60Hz) to get rid of the boominess.

Install Details:

Parts List:
Amplifier: Rockford Fosgate PBR300X2
Relay: Radio Shack 275-0233
Connector: RCA[M] to Pigtail (cut off from donor cable)
Terminator: 75 ohm (BNC)
Adapter: BNC[F] to RCA[M]

For those w/o Bose, you may want to buy the factory Amp Bracket [991 645 521 00] & (3) Bolts [900 378 317 01]

I chose this amp, because it is the only amp compact enough to fit in the factory bracket.
It was quite a perfect fit, as it pretty much snapped in place and then I used 2 wire ties to secure it to the bar on the left side.
This 2 channel amp is able to be run in bridged mode, making it a 300W RMS amp into a 4ohm speaker.
I figured that was plenty of power, as the Focal 5" Sub has a power rating of 80W RMS, so the Burmester 5" Sub is probably similar.

I run this amp at sane levels, but be warned, you could easily launch the cone out of the basket if you over adjust the gain.

Settings on the amp are as follows:

Gain: 9:00 (clock position) / Updated 7/1/15
FREQ: 2:00 (clock position) / Updated 7/1/15
Crossover Switch: LP
HL Adjust: 6V (full clockwise)

I was surprised to be so close, to max gain of the Amp, which I believe was due to the very low level of the Bose Sub Signal.

All the needed wires are available on the Bose Sub Harness.
Power, Ground, Speaker(+), Speaker(-), Line-In(+), Line-In(-), Remote.

The Remote Signal was too weak to turn on the Rockford Amp.
Therefore I had to add a relay.
I also found that the Remote Signal was too weak to trigger most relays.
I lucked out and found a relay with a very low coil draw that worked.
(The part number for this relay is listed above and you can see it in the pics below.)
It is important to set the HL Adjust, as mentioned above, or the Amp might latch on and not turn off, with the remote signal.
That is part of Rockfords signal-sensing-turn-on for people who connect to speaker level outputs and are not using a Remote wire.

Also, there was an unused RCA Input [Right], that made the amp hum when I touched it. I plugged a 75ohm Video Terminator into that RCA to stop that problem. It probably would not have hummed in normal operation (w/o me touching it) but I did not want to take a chance.

That is pretty much it for install.
Any questions, just ask.

Let's see if I can leave the system alone now.
So far I am still under $1100 in parts to upgrade the Bose, as the amp was

I recently did this upgrade. What a difference! My wife even commented on how much better it sounds than the Bose. You can actually crank the volume up now.
I ordered the parts from Sunset and it took four or five weeks to get them. After taking everything apart on the driver's side to release the closest speaker cover clip I decided for the passenger side I would use my interior trim tools to simply pop it out like the other two. It worked fine. Removing the trim and vent wasn't a big deal, but it saved me 10-15 minutes and I liked not taking more dash components apart.
Love the upgrade, thanks for figuring this out Lunarx. I need to stop reading this thread for fear of following you down the slippery slope.

Wow, great thread! After seeing all the great photos, I've decided to take plunge.

One question, can these parts be ordered at any Porsche dealer? Wouldn't prices all be the same?

Lunarx..I noticed you live in So Cal, but purchased from Sunset in OR? May I ask why?

Thanks again for all these great pix & posts.

Glad to hear you guys are doing these mods and liking the results.

I figure with the 991.1 being about the sonic experience of NA & PSE, we also need great sounding tunes to round out the ear candy.

cdelrosario, about the parts;
I buy from Sunset, because my local SoCal dealers want 20% over list, for parts.
Sunset goes a little under list.
Also, Luke is great to deal with.

Thanks Lunarx!

20% over list? Ridiculous!....but I guess someone's keeping them business! Sad :surr:

Do the Burmester door woofers fit behind the base system grills, or do the Burmester door grills need to be ordered too?

I don't know, but would guess they fit.
Connectors would likely be different though.
I think there was a guy , in this thread, who sold a set of Burmester door speakers.

The Burmester Door Grilles are not orderable seperately, as they are part of the door panel.
That is accirding to what I saw in PET.

I will say that I was rather impressed with what I heard from both the Base & Bose door woofers.
They put out remarkable levels of bass.

I feel ya' Pete! Some of these posts reinforce my feelings of inadequacy :surr:

Has anyone done this with a GT3 yet?

Tweeter upgrade is now added to my to do list :-)

Anyone know if there is somewhere to get this done in South Florida?
I'm technically competent but always seem to screw something up the first time I give it a try.

I did the tweeter upgrade using the instructions here. As others have said, there is a big improvement in quality. Had a little trouble getting the connector to release - trick is to use a small screwdriver to hold the pin down and gently push it out.

Thanks for posting this info.

Excuse the dumb question - but do you keep or discard the piece of foam on the inside of the Burmester grill?

I kept the foam.
I figured it was there for apperance and that it's acoustically transparent.

So did I.

OK, Foam will stay! Got all my parts on Friday ($388 shipped). Thanks to lunarx & mtony for the absolutely superb step-by-step with photos - a DIY instructional tour de force! My nerves should be sufficiently calm to start the install on Monday...(any last minute hints or "gotchas" to avoid are appreciated)

This mod is also on my to-do list too. Thanks guys for the detail write up & photos. :thumbup:

Great thread. I had a few questions:

1) Where is the OEM Burmester subwoofer located? I've heard that it's in the drivers side dash and is difficult to get to. True? I'm surprised it's not in the back.

2) Can the base "Sound Plus" amp (not the Bose) drive the Burmester dash tweeters? (anybody try this?)

THANK YOU Lunarx for initially posting this. I just did the install today. Super painless, took about 1 hour for both side. The improvement in sounds is by far more than the $388 in parts!

The sound stage sounds more raised and the mid highs and highs sound so much more life like.

The Sub will be next, but I might just have a shop do it for me.

Done!!!
 

I installed the tweeters as detailed by Lunarx and augmented with Mtony’s DYI photos and am pleased to report that I now have a system that sounds “crisp & dimensional”- very much worth the $388 investment.
However, unlike others who, on average, took two hours to install, it took me close to five hours…A time, I could’ve shortened, had I proper tools. So here are some recommendations from the tool front:

1. A four piece (3 shown) “Leegoal Car Door Clip Panel Audio Video Dashboard Dismantle Kits Installer Pry Tool” set is perfect for prying lose the grills and dash components. $5.58 from Amazon.

2. The Kobalt 10 piece ratcheting Offset Screwdriver set is perfect for screwing in the tweeters beneath the confined and sloping windshield area. $8.26 from Lowe’s.

3. The Irwin long reach plier set is absolutely indispensable for releasing those pesky grille rear clip prongs. $21.00 from Lowe’s.

The most difficult and vexing problem for me, was removing the speaker wire connector from the old Bose tweeters.

Put in the order for the speakers but they need to be shipped from Germany as so many people have been ordering them :-)

Quick question for those who recently installed the Bur tweeters -- did you remove the vent or force the grill out as Ski Porsche suggested in post #126? Seems as if all the clips are the same on all sides of the grill, so if two come out without that much fuss, shouldn't the third one come out fairly easily too?

:thumbsup:
Glad to hear so many of you are getting this done.
It amazes me that the stereo has shaped up to be one of my favorite parts of the car.

Well, I forced out my 1st Grille, because I did not know any better :banghead:
All the clips are not the same.
The rear clip has expanding prongs that need to be released from under the dash.
Otherwise, the grille has to be pried hard enough to dislodge the clip from the grille, because that clip won't release from the dash.
I think Porsche was trying to keep us from removing the grilles.

If you anticipate removing a grille again someday, you can steal a front clip from the Bose Grille to replace the pronged clip on the Burmester Grille.
You can expand the clips with pliers to remove them from the grille posts, then they just press back on.

1.) The pics in Post 6 & Post 55 show where the Sub is located.

Once you get an eye and a hand on it, it becomes apparent what you need to do.
PDK leaves that area fairly open (not sure if you have a clutch pedal).
Post 57 has a link to, robbieracers Thread on Sub Removal, which describes the process fairly well.

If you have a Base System, then you will need to add an Amp, to drive the newly installed Sub.
You can use the same Amp & Amp Bracket as I used (see Post 125), except you will feed it from speaker level (tapped off Door Woofers).
You could catch those wires at the grommet pass-thru, in each kick panel.
You should be able to find power in the kick-panel fuse box, right near where the amp installs.

2.) This is just a guess, but I would wager that the Base Amp will drive the Burmester tweeters, just fine.

Mech33, you might be the first one posting about upgrading a Base Stereo, so please let us know how it goes.


To All, Hope to hear about more successful upgrades as more of you complete the project. :rockon:

Door speakers
 

Have folks tried just updating the door speakers? I'd guess there would be a huge change.

The tweeters are interesting, and on my list to order, I'm trying to figure out if the door speakers make a big difference.

I think the only way to know would be to try them.
I was thinking I might try the Burmester door woofers.
Only because I am finding out that the Bose door woofers are bass heavy, which may have been intentional, to compensate for the weak Bose Sub.
It seems like their deep bass emphasis makes them less able to reproduce accurate mid-bass.

Perhaps the Burmester Door Woofers could do better with mid-bass :confused:
There is only one way to find out :banghead:

^^^
Lunarx! Let the adventure begin...:rockon:

Agree that the mid bass is what's lacking now, but mostly because to get any mid-bass you have to turn the volume up enough that the subs then become too intrusive. I wish the subs could be attenuated somehow. The head unit really needs more than just a base and treble control.

Try Linear Mode ON.
That thins out the bass.
However, it did not really improve the mid-bass, but it did make the system sound less muddy, when played at loud volume.
I equate Linear Mode ON to the opposite of Bass Boost ON.

I ran with Linear Mode ON, when I had Burmester Sub and Bose Amp.
Now with the Rockford Amp (set to 60Hz Low Pass) I turned Linear OFF.

Thanks! I'll give that a shot although I'm fairly sure I've tried it before. Might have been before adding the new tweeters though...

I know you guys are probably not the biggest supporter or this in terms of factory integrations, BUT I found this to be a the best value for adding REAL bass and depth to our systems with the minimal amount of additional NON oem equipment.

I installed one of these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_161LC2I....html?tp=61671

To drive this 8" JL powered enclosure.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_1369333...v3.html?tp=114

With a bass knob installed at the front of the car.

The bass is nice, tight and controlled and the unit fits nicely on the top of the rear shelf. Also power connectors are installed with a nice quick disconnect for ease of removal on track days. The carpet perfectly matches the black OEM carpet, so you barely notice it back there. I will have pics posted soon.

Also the prices is super reasonable. I tapped the signal from the factory bose amp underneath the passenger seat.

Adds nice bass and depth, especially after the tweet upgrades.

Did the tweeter upgrade. Thanks lunarx, assist to mtony.

Those speaker connector clips got me nuts!

Luke at Sunset was great; by now he's got the package down pat.

do you have the wire colors for the bose amp for the signals? where did you hook up your power from (the battery upfront?)

I didn't do the install, but my installer used one of these: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3BANRpq...=DST&XVVER=G09

and it's mounted under my passenger seat, grabbing the signal directly at the Bose Amp underneath the seat. Power was run directly from the battery at the front of the car and run along the driver's side to the amp in the trunk area.

JR Electronics in Miami will do this for you at $75/hr.

Thanks Trucheli will get in touch with them when I get back from vacation.

I will do mine too. Keep me posted. Ask for their best installer. I forgot his name now.

how the hell do you get the wire connector out of the bose...mine is not giving...arrrrgggghhh

I just kept working them side to side and the magic and INVISIBLE retaining clip finally released. The biggest frustration to me for the mod. D

That was brutal. I had to man handle the drivers side wire connector way too much and did some damage to the clip on the wires prying it out with a small computer screw driver. It just did not want to give. Finally got it but was ugly. I have some doubts if I clipped it into the new speaker correctly as I feel like the passenger side when testing if it worked seemed much more obvious but seems to be ok once listening with both in. Hoping I don't have it in upside down or something on the driver side so direction of wires messed up..

Anyone that wants to feel better about this do the passenger side first. Seemed to go in much easier. With the sunset package I found the U clips a little big in width to get the speaker down in so I had to turn them 90 degrees from the obvious way they look like they want to go so the U facing you on the two closest to you and away from you with the far one rather than to the left or right that they seem to clip on and stay easiest. They wanted to pop off but luckily none feel into the dash trying to pop off.

On the passenger side I didn't even use the needle nose through the vent even though I did remove the vent. I was able to just work it up enough with the wider trim tool then used the needle nose from the top front to pull it up with leverage on the dash (used a credit card to protect the leather. Did same when doubting my driver side install to pull off the new grill still from the top. It will give but not easily.

Anyway now done. Got duck and new sport design bumper on this past week, did speakers just now and about to walk out and put wind deflectors on the triangle at the top of the doors to stop the window down buffeting. Then officially done screwing with the car for a bit.

When I got mine I took them to the same place that put in my Escort. The had it done in 30 minutes and charged me $50. No frustration at all!!

I'm with you on that one!

Glad you got it done. You'll enjoy. D

Bose capacitor
 

Bose has its own small capacitor on board. As I understand it is a high pass filter (simple crossover network).

Burmester Tweeter has none (at least outside). How to solve the problem with crossovers during the swap? Or may be Burmester tweeter has its own crossover inside?

Whatever the Bose had wasn't working very well.

The question is to add or not to add the capacitor in the line with the Burmester. If Not - will it damage the driver?

I don't think any of us have added a cap to the Burmester tweeters and I haven't heard of any damage to them either.

not capacitor here and it's been working great for the last 5 months.

I just did the Bose to Burmester tweeter swap with the help of the info in this thread and want to give a shout out to Lunarx and all the other contributors. What an improvement! After driving around a few hours actually being entertained by the car's sound system, was in such an appreciative mood that I paid my Rennlist membership.

Not much to add to the DIY advice here. It was a about a three hour job, fairly easy and tantrum-free since I knew what to expect thanks to the detailed info and pics already posted. A couple things might be worth mentioning:

- did the passenger side first, easier no steering wheel
- the speaker cover clip that is accessed from inside the dash releases more easily if windshield end of cover is pried up (used a plastic spatula) while squeezing the clip
- to release Bose speaker from wiring, pop speaker retainer clip or remove rubber plug on top of clip to expose tiny access hole and push connector apart w/small screw driver(see pic)
- if using factory screws and speed nuts, expect to file or grind speed nuts as Lunarx mentioned to allow Burmester tweeter to fit correctly on dash mount tabs (pic of clip w/ edges to be filed marked in black). Metal is soft and easy to work but this is where I spent some time.
- a 1/8 hex wrench can be used to tighten the factory Torx screws if you don't have an offset T25.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0934e70fa4.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07d1b81f9d.jpg



This is a not very difficult DIY that significantly improves the sound of the Bose system for less than $400. Not bad.

Zonian, thanks for the post and contribution. Will be useful. Nice job. Nice to hear your kind words about appreciating the forum as well.

Anyone have anymore info on the speed nut issue? Are there other ones available rather than having to do the grinding? Would be better to avoid that PIA.

So the new speaker covers fit nice and flush too?

See post 112 where @mtony details hardware needed.

Definitely one of the best mod posts - ever.

Thanks!!

Called Luke Rogers @ Sunset 503-641-8600

He's sold like over 25 sets he said and picking up steam. Guys starting to do it on the Boxsters too now.

Anyway, he has everything you need. Just mention Burmester tweeter upgrade and color of dash.

Ordered parts for a future winter/spring project. Like $380 or so plus shipping.

Thanks for the suggestion LexVan who sent me a message asking about it today. An XMAS present for the 991.

Thanks to Lunarx as well for pioneering this upgrade for the clueless guys like myself.

BUMP, my first DIY on my 991. It was huge improvements, and I could probably do a swap in under an hour after doing it once. As for speedclips, I didn't use OEM ones, I found some at my local Lowes that worked great and didn't need grinding.

Dude, I'm there! I'll provide the Colectivo coffee in the morning, hold the flashlight, and buy all the IPA when we finish.

Does that price include the Burmester replacement grills?

When do I drive up? Get Parnelli to show, too. He probably owes me money.

I ordered mine from Sunset too. Luke has it down - knows all the parts required. About $380 speakers, grills and hardware included. Grills fit perfectly. The Lowe's washers will work too but I used the factory stuff because I had them. Really not much trouble filing them and you get a nice tight fit, no rattles.
Have fun and enjoy the much improved sound.

I'm going to do this mod some day soon, and do a sound check with Little Big Town's song Girl Crush; for 2 reasons, the song is hawt, and Karen Fairchild is even hawter.

Sounds good! Haven't seen Parnelli in person for while. Will do.

Yes- includes the grills

Thanks for the tips everyone. Def going to to try this one.

Joec500: can you post the part # or a pic of the package of the speedclips from Lowes you used? I will most likely go that route as well.

I didn't have to do anything to the clips that came with the set from Sunset. You need to not put them on straight like you feel like you should but rather turn them till they fit right...it has been a few months but I turned them I think 90 degrees so they are sideways on the tabs they go on.

Zonian - what hardware? I thought all that was needed were the speakers and the grills.

You can see the speed nuts in my post:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8519...l#post12100574

Porsche_nuts - hardware is just 6 screws and 6 speed nuts included in kit from Sunset.

Amazing. This is my next project for the new year. Thanks lunarx for trailblazing this and giving us all happy motoring w/ sweet tunes! Merry Christmas!

Part 3b - Punch Eq for Sub Woofer Amp
 

Merry Christmas Renlisters! :thumbsup:

It's cool so many of you are sharing how the Bose Upgrades went for you.
Perhaps that means I should do the same...

For those of you doing upgrades, I wonder how many have gone past the tweeters and upgraded the Sub [Stage 2] or Sub-Amp [Stage 3]?
I know some have gone far beyond, like Money2536 with his amazing Dynaudio system. :bowdown:

My latest upgrade is not really worth mentioning, but I thought I'd still put it out there, for those looking at ways to further optimize the Bose System.
We can call it Stage 3B.

I was initially so impressed, with just the Sub Amp upgrade, that I never bothered to install the Punch Eq. This is a 45Hz +18db Parametric EQ.
It's actually a dangerous device, for a 5" woofer, but I decided to try it out anyways.
I was hoping it could let me direct more low bass to the sub, as opposed to the door speakers.
It seemed like Linear Mode OFF and/or raising Bass on the PCM added bass to the Door Woofers as much as (if not more than to the sub).

So I put the Punch Eq in and resisted installing it in the Storage Cubby, because that would surely have resulted in demise of my Sub.
Instead I put it behind the fuse door and opted to set-it & forget-it.

I set it to a conservative setting (+6db estimated) and then arrived at the following audio settings:
Bass: -2, Treble: -2, Surround: OFF, Linear: OFF, Fader: +2.

These settings reflect my goals of a clean mid-range sound, with bass and highs that appear, when the content calls for them.

Fading +2, to the front, seems like it added headroom, to the main Bose Amp, by reducing the current drain of the useless rear speakers.

It's only because of the Peq that I can run such low Bass Settings and keep Linear Mode ON.
I'm sure Bass Heads will prefer Linear Mode OFF (which does sound good), but I found it leads to muddiness, when content with a heavy Bass Mix is played.
I just use Volume to regulate bass and occasional tap PCM Bass up or down from a -3 to -1 range.

To me, the system has strong bass now, but it's still not going to be like an aftermarket 8" or 10" enclosure would yield.

Well that's as far as I went, but am still thinking about swapping in the Burmester Door Woofers.
It's possible they could have better mid-bass or they could be no different.
Won't know unless I try...


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...048fadbb8e.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f3e0337bc7.jpg

Nice! Whats the hookup on the punch eq?

New to this forum. I just bought a 2013 911 C2S and the one thing I really noticed was how deficient the audio system was, especially when I compare it to the aftermarket custom system I had in my 2005 Boxster S. I'm hesitating going the full aftermarket route this time around as I'm not sure it was worth the $$$. I'm intrigued by the simple improvements shown on this thread. Can anyone comment on how much more improvement there is if you swapped out all the speakers as apposed to just the front tweeters and one sub? Pardon my ignorance but Do you know if the current Bose system amp can handle a swap out to better speakers?

Has anyone done this in a Macan? Looked for a thread on the Macan Forum, but didn't find one.

Thanks

Slightly off-topic but related. From my early and short audiophile days, one of the first lessons I learned was the output is only as good as the input. Garbage in = garbage out. So what is the preferred input source listed from best to worst? My guess would be USB w/ HD audio is best but then how does it rank from there? How good are the DACs in our cars?

Thanks again for the excellent posts. Seems like a big bang for little buck.

I did this a month ago and is great. I put the old clips from the front ones (that are easy to pop off) so I could take off again without the drama if needed. It sounds much better than stock.

Is it possible to do this to Cayman's as well (apologize if it has been already asked)?

Thanks Luke @ Sunset. A project for later this winter or spring. Didn't know what to expect from the tweeters.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...58ef6b0c3.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1c1869a2e.jpeg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9fa11aade.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0c9b70683.jpeg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c6b8ddcd7.jpeg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6f416b1ba.jpeg

Lunarx- I've just ordered everything to follow in your footsteps, tweeters, subwoofer, subamp, punch eq..... looking forward to improving the audio in my car!

novaman, That's Awesome!!
I look forward to your impressions as you perform each stage of the upgrade.

You are correct.
As for digital files, 24bit Studio Masters at 192kHz are among the best you can get (without too much effort).
However, they need to be down converted to 48kHz wav files, to play on our Bose systems (because we can't play FLAC).
Since wav files are very inconvenient, you are better off converting to 48kHz mp3 at 320kbps.
I stopped using comercially ripped mp3 and will rip my own from CD or convert from master files.
I use a good software and choose 320kbps, CBR, Joint Stereo & Bit Reservoir.
With CD ripping use 44kHz sample rate.
With Master converting use 48kHz or 44kHz, depending which divides evenly from the source masters sample rate.
Good mp3 files, can sound real nice.
I think mp3 (and our Bose systems) got a bad rap from all the poor quality mp3 encodings being distributed.

I stuck with full size WAV files and use a 256 GB memory stick (I've posted this elsewhere), here are some things I learned.

When dealing with hundreds of albums (thousands of tracks) navigation through your library is key. The default options provided by PCM were pretty weak, however you can get around that. I organized the memory stick using the folder structure itself. The first level is Genre (I'm currently using 4; Classical, Jazz, Pop, and Rock), the second level is the Artist, the third level is the Album, and the fourth level are the tracks.

While playing music from your USB port, simply press Options, roll down and select Select Tracks, and then press the Return Arrow - this will put you in folder view so you can navigate through your folder structure. Very easy to do, even while driving.

Finally, PCM will not take a spinning hard drive, at least mine didn't when I tried it. I tried a 1 TB spinner that uses USB power, PCM saw it but would never catalog the music. Note to self - I need to try this again now that I've seen how long it takes to catalog 256 GB (a couple of minutes), I need to try the spinner again and give it more time.

Specs
 

Excellent thread! You may all find this info interesting in regard to the speaker specs. I have a base system in my 981 and I'm upgrading to the AMT tweeters for sure. I was considering replacing the door woofers, but see they are only 1 ohm with Bose / Burmester and may have fried my puny 2x25w built in amp!

Hi Lunarx, What software do you use to convert to MP3s? I also use 320kbps, but sometimes the end of the song is truncated (using ITunes to convert). I agree that good MP3's are very good, with a lot of detail.

I use MediaMonkey Gold.
It's has tons of cool features.

Testing the base quality of your pre-amp signals is pretty straightforward. A CD is uncompressed and there is no possible variance in encoding. The only way to get sub-optimal sound with CD is if your D/A converter is bad. In that case you can cross-testing with the line-in when feeding with a high quality 3.5" analog out device (lists available, some iphones are good, some ipods, some mp3 players). You could also use a home system to test the car in your garage.

Blutooth is always problematic. Although is does have a lossless option you practically never have enough control to force it to use it, or even to tell what you are currently using. Not a fan.

USB cable audio. Well it will go through the same D/A converter as CD (hopefully), so for testing purposes CD will do.

Was anyone able to verify if the Burmester AMT Tweeter does indeed have an in-line capacitor? I haven't received mine yet and wondering if someone can pop the housing open to check?

After reviewing the speaker specs and wiring diagrams, it appears that only Burmester has a dedicated channel for the tweeters. So I'm concerned that dedicated channel may have an active crossover in the amp... I haven't seen the rear Burmester tweeters or Mid's in person, but assume they have an in-line capacitor like the Bose and base (ASK) tweeters have? Can anyone confirm?

I'm in the process of upgrading the base system on my 981C, so that I too can start "Loving my Base" - thanks to this thread!

Cheers!

I have not seen any wiring diagrams of the Bose & Burmester Systems.
It would be interesting to see the ones you are referring to.

If you want to confirm, if the Tweeter is getting All-Pass or High-Pass, you could connect a small full-range speaker to the leads and feel if it is getting any Low Frequencies (that is unless you have a scope).
It would be an interesting test.

Anyone replace or thinking of replacing the midrange speaker by the chrono clock? Will Burmeister speaker fit there?

I bought the Burmester Center, but did not put it in.
It fits, but will need a harness adapter, because the connector will not plug in directly.
There is a pic posted of it, earlier in this thread.
I might try it, if I ever feel like popping off the Chrono Cover again.
I kind of wonder if it would sound better or worse.

Is it a PITA to pop the Chrono cover?

Why do you think it would sound worse?

The Chrono Cover pops off easy enough.
The DC Resistance of the Burmester is lower @ 2.5ohm vs 3.6ohm, but that alone is not a determining factor.
Since sound quality is subjective, you never know with speakers, until you try them.

I wonder how much sound is even sent to the center, outside of Surround Mode.
Considering I don't like Surround Mode, it might mean I have little to loose trying a different center.

Here is a link to the audio wiring diagrams thanks to Loren over at Renntech:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...iagram-no-pcm/

Looking at the diagrams and spec chart I posted above, you can see that both the Base (SPP) and Bose do not have separate channels being amplified to the tweeters (note there is no Power/Watts shown going to the F or R tweets in above chart), where Burmester has 25W/each listed. The former have the midrange and tweeters in both front & rear (wired in parallel) on the same channel.

Also note that Burmester uses more 2 ohm speakers, sans the AMT, rear tweeter, and woofer which are 6, 4, and 1 respectively. The 2 ohms speaker will obviously play louder, but will put more stain on the amp if you switch anything out from Bose or Base which are rated at 4 ohm. You would possibly need to attenuate the speaker down by a few db to match the others.

I suppose we can only bank on a passive HPF at Midrange levels.
Hard to say if there is a safety cap, somewhere in the tweeter housing.
I can't say I heard any low frequency break-up, from the tweeters, they sound real clear.
AMT can extend lower than a traditional tweeter, so I would not want to choke them off.

Interestingly, the Burmester website states: "Crossover technology has been carried over more or less unmodified from the home audio sector. Analogue and digital filters have been optimally defined for their new installation location and finely tuned after extensive in-car audio testing."...Now their home audio AMT is crossed over at 2.700 Hz...so since they said "more or less" we can't say for certain which channels use active and passive crossovers, but I'd assume there is a cap in the AMT tweeter housing like the one used in the Bose tweeter from what you're hearing ~ I sent them an email to see if they can verify...will keep everyone posted.....

And sorry, I meant if you installed the Bur Center you may want to lower the db since it's 2 ohms... Thanks again for inspiring me to do this upgrade...can't wait to get my set!

I don't believe there's a good amount of accurate information on the Burmester system in the 991. I'll be performing a full system analysis on one in the next 30 days. I'll be sure to share the results here.

If any of you are around Boston, I have a project to collect recordings of stereo systems in some cars so that there will be a reference in the future. I would greatly appreciate if I could do before/after recordings when speaker replacements like this are done. Contact me for details. The car owner will get measurements out of it that can be used to adjust EQ to actually be more linear. No commercial interest, just bored/OCDing/annoyed at lack of information from manufacturers.

Let's flip a wrecked 991 with Bur :D

There's definitely some value to be gained in that for someone looking to perform an upgrade like this, however, there's only so much an RTA can tell you about thew characteristics of the sound. For instance, you can tell if a speaker replacement took care of a non-linearity, but it can't tell you if that sound has warmth or presence.

In my professional opinion, speaker replacement in the 991 can make the sound more tolerable, but there are different directions I would take for a more accurate result.

So I did the Burmester tweeter upgrade and a major upgrade in sound for less than $400. Upon opening up the package, I was a little shocked at how heavy and sturdy the tweeter is compared to the cheap Bose. That thing is solid! As others have already stated, thanks to Lunarx and all the many other contributors who have provided tips and have made this mod less frightful.

While the mod is simple, it is not necessarily easy (at least for me). The grills were harder to take off than I thought. The clips on the windshield side are easy to take out, but the clip closest to the A pillars are a real dozy. Lunarx is right, Porsche made it that way to prevent easy removal -- there are pins in the clip that spread out as you pull up. I started on the passenger side and not knowing about the pins, I tried to remove the grill without taking out the air vents. While I got the grill out, the A pillar clip fell into the vent area hole, and I wound up having to remove the vent anyway. I actually managed to find and retrieve the clip, as it lodged itself behind the vent duct, but it took some doing. On the driver side, I started by taking out the vent - all I had to do was pull it out after removing the trim. Getting a needle nose plier in the tight space and squeezing the clip while pulling up on the grill was not easy as the angle is tight and the steering wheel is in the way. My suggestion - instead of squeezing the clip as you pull up on the grill, use the plier to hold the clip and pull hard on the cover. The cover will release but the clip will not get lost in the vent as the plier holds it in place.

Also, the speaker connection is hard to remove. There is not a lot of space to work and not a lot of wire length to position the speaker. To get more room and leverage, you should remove the speaker from the grill. Use a screwdriver to release the tab on the metal cross member. Once the metal is released, remove the speaker. Use a needle nose plier to pull the connector from the speaker.

The clips for the screws to hold the Burmesters in place are too big. You have to grind them down. I don't understand why Porsche cannot make clips specifically for the Burmester. Grinding down six clips about 1/8 inch each on both sides is not my idea of fun.

All in all, still well worth it. Great sound. Very crisp.

Burmester reply to crossover question
 

As I mentioned I sent an email to Burmester last week and I just got a repy...

I asked:
'Can you confirm if the Burmester AMT tweeter used in Porsche vehicles utilizes an active crossover (in the amplifier or elsewhere) or a passive filter installed in the AMT unit itself? Also, is the crossover frequency around 2.700 Hz?'

Reply:
'thank you for your mail and your interest in Burmester sound systems. Sorry for the late repy!

The AMT tweeter used in Porsche vehicles utilize an active filter in the amplifier and the crossover frequency is around 4.000 Hz.

We hope this info helps you out!'

Since I assume this information is accurate, then people doing this mod should really be using a passive filter (bass blocker) to cross-over the ATM at around 4.000 Hz. This could be part of the reason people report the sounds being much better as the tweeter is basically getting a full range...something like this would work great as it would block from 4.200 Hz down on the 6 ohm AMT tweeter.

Now the Bose system may have an active crossover for the midrange channel (which the tweeter is also connected to), but that would be a much lower frequency than that used for a tweeter...In either case the Bose tweeter removed has a cap on it for a reason.

This is why, IMHO, I believe this mod is a waste of money. Most of the aubible change comes from the crossover frequency being shifted without the series capacitor inline. Although, I'm extremely surprised the tweeters aren't blowing left and right(pun intended) seeing as this is the electrical signal being delivered by the Bose amplifier. Definitely a bit below 4khz...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4a0d789c49.jpg

So I just ordered the "kit" for nothing:(

Not 100% smoked, I just think it requires a different approach. Looking at the response curve, there's definitely some "push" above 10khz that a more mellow tweeter could help control. That being said, playing it without a crossover is a bit dangerous to the longevity of the driver.

If I were you, I would source a pair of aftermarket passive crossover networks for a mid/tweeter that would allow you to take the lower tones out of the tweeter while at the same time taking the higher frequencies out of the midrange. Sounds like a win/win to me.

I just finished installed the tweeters and I can report that it makes a big difference in the sound. There may be a better solution and they may not last but they sure sound better for now.

Like others I had a little trouble getting the grill removed and grinding the speed nuts but it was worth it. However, the biggest problem for me is that I received two driver-side grills and no passenger side. The PN on the bags were different but the grills were the same. I had to remove the Bose tweeter and then use my Dremel tool to trim off the plastic bracket on the back of the existing grill and re-install it for now - frustrating!

The point is --the existing Bose grills will fit over the Burmeister tweeters if you are willing to do a little work on them.

Go get the passenger grill, as now you have the driver grill that says Burmester and the passenger side grill that is blank. You paid for a driver and passenger grill, so that's what you should get. Bad part is, now you have to pull that grill off again!

Chad996Pgh, that is some interesting information from Burmester.
Perhaps we should ask Bose the same question.
I know we saw the 981 Cayman Wiring Diagrams, but who knows if they also apply to a 991.

The Amazon Bass Blocker, from your Amazon link, calcs out as a 7uf Capacitor.
In which case, it should provide a 1st order HPF at 3.8Khz, on a 6 ohm driver.
It seems like a good cap to go with, if your target is around 4Khz.
A 6.8uf (standard value) would put you at 3.9khz.


12v Nick, it's cool of you to take measurements.
Are you measuring;
Electrical Signal, from the Tweeter Lead?
or
Frequency Response (with a Mic)?

Also, what were your sound settings, while measuring?


After people brought this up for discussion, I listened real close to the tweeters.
To me, they sound clear and clean.
Where I do hear some harshness, is from the mids, in their upper frequency range.

For those who want to try a cap on the tweeter, it seems like it could be done at the red lead, between the connector and tweeter.
Un-solder the red lead from connector, solder red lead to one end of cap, solder other end of cap back to connector.
Alternatively, you could splice the cap into the factory harness, or make a harness adapter.

They could still have a passive first order high pass filter inside the unit - to protect from precisely this. Active systems could still send lower frequencies like pops, noise, on power fluctuations. A 3 db filter at a lower frequency than the intended active crossover frequency would protect the tweeter and not do much damage to the sound.

This was the "electrical" measurement with the tone controls flat on the PCM. This signal was present at the tweeter and the midrange(seeing as they share an output channel from the Bose amplifier).

I have the electrical measurements from the rest of the outputs in that system as well, though they aren't relevant to this discussion.

Though the email reply Chad996Pgh received from Burmester was vague, there are saying there is no passive and that the crossover is controlled actively at the amplifier. I'm going to assume the reason the tweeters are not blowing up is the fact that an AMT design has a much lower resonant frequency than a smaller dome tweeter. Because of this, the lower notes are not as immediately detrimental as there long term use will eventually reveal.

12v Nick ~ thanks for confirming. This has been a fun project to figure out these specs and I've spent a good amount of time researching, so I appreciate all of the testing!

I sourced a used Bose tweeter and Mid. The Bose tweeter indeed has a passive first order high pass filter on it @ 4.7 uF, which is filtering out below around 8.500 Hz. The mid doesn't have filter.

For those doing this mod, to be safe - the cheapest solution is to just use the Amazon bass blocker and install as lunarx described. If you don't want to cut any wires I can assist with making a harness adapter as I just made one for this exact application (see below).

I plan to use a JL Audio 2-way crossover for optimal results. Their C5 series XO allows you to adjust both the mid presence and the tweeter level which is ideal. At the fuse panels on each side footwell you can access the speaker wire connectors (that run to the doors) and make an adapter (using VW housings and wire repair kits). You could then route a new wire to run up to the tweeter using a new connector (TE connector # 1-1718333-1, available @ Mouser electronics). This way you won't have to cut any factory wires and can return to stock easily.

While I wait for my Burmester tweeter, I'm trying out a couple of different options and will post my findings. Since I have the base system, I have a lot of flexibility. I just hooked up a 4-channel Focal FD amp and I'm still experimenting. This a a great project for winter...
Cheers!

Play by play and pics for the uninitiated would be helpful when you get your Burs and install. :bowdown:

After all this talk of crossovers, I thought I should check my In Car Frequency Response.

10 db/div on graph, Mic Pick-Up placed 3" forward of Driver Headrest.
Audio Settings: Treble: -3, Bass: -3, Linear: ON, Surround: OFF, Fader: +2
These are the settings I gravitated to, based on listening preference.
I will occasional raise Bass and/or Treble, but usually end up with them back at -3.

The crazy peak at 80Hz, is the Door Woofers, as my sub is LPF at 50Hz.
Not saying this is a Trophy Response Curve, but it was easy to obtain.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7fb8b9f3ad.jpg

Lunarx that's relatively close the desired response curve I shoot for in the aftermarket world. The peak at 80 wouldn't be so bad if the response below that could keep up. What is your setup?

Well, I would love if the 5" Burmester Sub had more low end extension.
I left myself some headroom, so it's not all the way maxed out.
Perhaps, if I can tame that 80hz peak, I could raise the head unit bass, which would let the door woofers help more, to extend the low frequency range.

My set-up, is as detailed in the thread.
Factory Bose w/
Burmester Tweeters (No Cap, but probably should put one).
Burmester Sub.
Rockford Fosgate PBR300X2 Sub Amp (Bridge, 50Hz LP, 25Hz SS).
Rockford Fosgate Punch EQ (45Hz set to +6db).

To clarify, there is a risk of too much power going to the Burmester tweeters with the upgrade?? Chance of blowing them?

Trying to follow here, as I'm not a car audio expert. Thanks

The short answer is yes. By not cutting off lower frequency signals, the speaker cone could exceed design limits and fail.

I still have mine in the boxes and have not installed. I will be following here with any updates.

So if you don't put in crossovers, would a possible solution be to turn down the bass to -3 ?

All the guys that have done the upgrade and mod, have you played the system loud and worked the Burmester tweeters hard??

We've not seen any blow tweeters yet.

Are the sound improvements this mod is providing because the Burmesters tweeters are now playing some mid range frequencies??

Did anyone consider upgrading bose amp to burmester? I wonder what the cost would be to just upgrade all the speakers and amp to burmester.

This is my theory. Next couple weeks I'll have more data to confirm/disconfirm.

Most factory premium sound amplifiers for European cars are in the range of $1200-$2200. No one should EVER pay that make for a factory amplifier. Not to mention the pinout and harness are likely to differ.

Unfortunately, that is not a viable solution. The purpose of a crossover is to send the correct signals to the speakers to play within their intended frequency range. In this case - to block out the low range frequencies to the tweeters so they aren't receiving the full signal (which is output from the Bose amp). The typical crossover point for tweeters is around 4.500 Hz...The "bass blockers" I recommended above is a cheap and effective solution.

The amps are pricey, Bose is $1K & Burmester is $1,500. But even if you did source one used with the wire harness (which isn't sold separately as it's part of the main wire loom in the car), you'd still have to run additional wires to the speakers....and with all of that work (and cost), you'd be better off to use a signal summing processor which are somewhat new that even work with Bose systems., then an aftermarket amp to really tune things up!

That's how I'd do it, too (if I were to mess with this at all), with a signal processor to return the signal to something usable by an aftermarket amp. Use something like this: http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=49


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68d627122c.png

Or this: http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=42


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5a2a6aa9c.png

Looking forward to updates. Nick says he's figuring out some upgrade options :thumbup:

@12VNick

What are you guys developing for the 991? I had a complete MusicarNW system in my E92 335i and it was such a beautifully designed kit, especially the subwoofer.

Every piece/wire/etc was so perfect and the sound was spectacular. I am excited to see what you guys develop.

Also Ken had amazing service. I am super stoked

I'm ready and waiting too!

I finally received my Burmester AMT tweeters... I busted out my grandfathers old school Ohm meter, then measured the DC resistance which was around 5 ohms as expected. So this pretty much confirms my theory that there is not a cap/filter on these like the Bose tweeter has....

To confirm I measured the Bose tweeter and there is NO resistance (due to the cap), then I got the same result when I measured across the PAC bass blocker...so the fact that I got a reading of 5 ohms on the AMT tweeter confirms there is no cap inside is my theory.

I tested these out (actively crossed over @ 4K) and they do sound really, really good...But again, I would just suggest to use the bass blockers or an appropriate cap on these if you're just replacing the tweeter!

After all this research, I decided on using the Audison AP8.9 Bit amp/dsp to upgrade my base system. It has 8 channels and SO much flexibility with the ability to change all of the crossover points, set time delay, etc. all via a laptop! More to come......

Glad you liked the kit from your E92. There will be a similar approach to the 991 systems. The information will definitely hit here first, so stay tuned.

Tweeter polarity
 

Did anyone notice if the tweeter polarity was correct when replacing the tweeters? Did the black striped (-) wire line up with the Burmester black wire? What's interesting, is the Bose tweeter and all the oem speakers I've been testing have the + terminal on the R side (which is the side with the cap), but for the connector to work on the Burmester you'd need to flip the connector over for it to work. So maybe the Bose were wired out of phase? I also noted the Burmester rear tweeters do not have a cap...

The cap has to be on the positive side of the feed or it is essentially bypassed. Also, tweeters being out of phase is a tough think to notice audibly due to the frequency range they're playing.

PM sent.

I thought I read it doesn't matter which side the cap is on as its AC voltage and I didn't hear a difference changing terminals. My confusion if the + wire was on the L (not feeding to the cap), the connector had to be flipped over to work with the Burmester....from the picture on page #1, it appears the grey wire with the black stripe (-) is going to the negative (black) as appropriate....but hard to tell from the picture.

Finally decided to do the mod kit from Luke @ Sunset today after being in the box almost a month. Love it. Can better hear mid/highs, feels like sound is being "projected" a bit more from windshield. (imho) Was it worth it? For me, I like it but not enough to add anything else. Just gonna leave it and enjoy :rockon:

Here are a few pics of the Bose tweeter compared to the Burmester Rear Tweeter...note there is NO cap on the rear tweeter either (but an empty space for it)..Also it's 1" vs. 3/4" on Bose and different material...I'm going to test it out today and hear how it sounds..

Also note the 4" Bose vs. Burmester Mid...since the Bose is getting a full signal the magnet is bigger...note how small the magnet is on the Burmester....this by design should confirm the use of all active crossovers.

The size of the magnet has nothing to do with the frequency range it's designed to play. The Burmester midrange is more thank likely a "Neodymium" construction. This rare earth material is over 10X more powerful than ferrite. So, by the looks of it, the Burmester midrange is actually more powerful than the Bose.

Whatever material they are made out of - they sound amazing! While they play lower in volume compared to the Bose, they sound much more natural and smooth. Their DC resistance measure around 2.5V vs Bose @ 1.8V. They also have different connectors.

The Burmester rear tweeters are also a noticeable improvement over the Bose tweeters. But they don't quite hit the higher sounds as well as the AMT Burmester does. But if on a budget, the rear Burmester with an inline cap would be an easy drop in replacement for the front and/or rear Bose...but the connector is also different, but easy to replace.

This has been a great thread. Can't wait to start working on improvements without working too hard on the custom install.

Has anyone thought of using something like the HELIX P SIX DSP to replace the current amp? Without changing too much, I figured I might be able to add the Focal or Burmester sub and give it some additional power while combining the DSP functionality. Hopefully also small enough to still hide under the passenger seat.

Basically trying to use as many Porsche parts as possible, while maybe updating the amp with something substantial.

I did run a polarity check w/ an NTI Meter & Signal Generator.
I put the mic right next to the tweeter, and did a full forward fade with balance all the way left/right.
I checked all door speakers, as well, just for reference.

I'm jealous of you guys with Base systems, doing processors and amps :rockon:
I wonder if the Bose signal is fiber only or if it also has an analog feed, from the head unit (which I assume the Base does).
Any one able to confirm if Base is analog and Bose lacks analog?

Did you notice if the black-striped wire was going to the black wire of the tweeter (pin #2) during the install? It appears so from your pic...
Appears Bose is digital with analog being sent back to the head unit to drive the front and rear channels maybe. Probably not worth it to updgrade to a processor and amp if you have Bose. http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/47706-cdr31-wiring-output-or-back-picturediagram-no-pcm/

Could you do me a favor? And measure the DC resistance of the Woofers? Specs show they are 1 ohm, but I'm skeptical. The specs show 2 for the Mids, but they measure higher. I'm really curious what the Burmester Woofers DC resistance is as I have a set in order!

Chad,
I don't recall the wire colors and all I can do is refer to the pics (as you are already doing).
From the pics, it looks like the black striped wire went to tweeter black (assumed neg).
It did not seem possible to insert it differently.

Sorry, but I have not had my door panels off, to get any DC Resistance measurements on door woofers or mids.
I had been thinking of changing them, but I'm now holding-off on any further changes, until I can decide on what makes the most sense.
Kind of thinking of adding a HPF on the door woofers and a LPF on the mids, to clean them up.

For you experienced car stereo installers,
I wonder if stuffing the dash cavity will help the Burmester Sub?
If so, what material would work best?


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3a56cfd5be.jpg

Sorry- I meant the door mid/woofer ohms....or is that what you meant?

Looks like I totally missed what you meant.
I edited my post, since you were not asking about the Sub Woofers. :o

is the consensus now that the burmester tweeter should have a high pass filter connected?
Are the people that have done this mod having any problems with the burmester tweeter without a high pass filter?

thanks

I've not noticed any problems. What sort of problems would likely manifest?

blown tweeters ?

Yes, and clipping at higher volumes and at more bass-y frequency inputs.

I'd highly suggest one... Without the filter, a loudspeaker driver such as a tweeter can be overdriven which can lead to distortion and eventual failure. Think of a tweeter trying to produce bass frequencies. It can’t do so efficiently (or mechanically!) so we employ a HPF to block those frequencies... This is a cheap fix and protection for this mod. You can even buy the male & female connectors to make an adapter so no cutting of factory wires would be involved.

Anyone performing this mod notice any of these problems?

No.

Slight side-track: is there any forum where people discuss sound quality of car stereo components in detail?

I could find some car hifi forums but they are mostly concerned with getting their bluetooth to work and getting flashy head units.

I didn't find anything like this thread. Sound quality. Speakers. This thread is awesome but the 991 focus limits the audience.

Anyway, keep up the good work. Feel free to pm instead of followup if you think it's derailing.

So my tweeters are finally arriving Monday after a month long wait. Btw the cost seems to have increased as it was $430 shipped for the speakers, grills and hardware.

Now the question is what to do about these bass blockers. No one thus far has reported a single issue after installation. If these little tweeters can reproduce some of the mids and that's what makes them sound so good compared to the Bose perhaps using a different bass blocker of maybe 0-500hz would be better than blocking everything below 5.6khz or 2.8khz that the tweeter specific bass blockers do.

What ohm do these speakers run?

Not sure if I want to just run them bare or get the bass blockers...no failures to date and could cut down on speaker range for added unnecessary protection. Hmmm...

So far so good, been couple weeks and sound is improved. Might be that I don't listen as loud as others:bigbye:

I have made a wiring harness to bridge the bose connector to the burmester
and soldered a 8 mfd capacitor within the harness

testing it out in the car, demonstrates that it acts as a high pass filter. ( i hooked up a full range speaker to the wiring harness and no low frequencies were audible)

For the speed nuts, is it totally necessary to trim them down to fit? Someone had posted a pic of them cut down below.

I know some guys got other fasteners, but I'd like to use the OEM's. Also, 6 come in a pack. Need all of them?

Thanks

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...601aa9eb1.jpeg
One that was posted which was trimmed on the sides


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f6d81f493.jpeg
Pictured as new

Here's the reverse side. I can't see how the others were trimmed without cutting off the "u" shape clip part??


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93fd7e1e3.jpeg

Yes, you have to trim them - all of them. Speaker will not fit in without trimming. The "U" gets thinner, but retains its shape.

I was looking to do this. Can you share the parts you used and where you got them?

:thumbup:

To the OP - what year/model us your car?

I did not taper - that would have been a real PITA. I trimmed straight across.

Right, Since the tweeter body is rectangular, you need to trim the speed-nuts straight across.

Not sure if you meant me?
13 C2S w/ Bose


Nice Work!
Very interested to hear how you feel about the sound after installing.

So guys, trim straight across and take off like half the width of the hinge?

What did you use to trim it?

Trim like this? Just the top face? No need to trim the bottom clip or vertical clip face?

Just want to get these done ahead of time so I don't have to worry about them day of install.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1e0bf2909.jpeg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...db1688cf9.jpeg

^ You need to trim the (2) sides, just like you marked it.
The U gets thinned down to about 1/2 it's current width.
You do both surfaces of the clip (upper and lower).

I used this disc sander (way overkill),
http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-1...&blockType=G13

A file and bench-vise would work also.

This pic might show the interference areas, that you are trying to trim away.
Those circles should be the whole length of the clip though (not just the u-part).

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6657e469be.jpg

Gotcha. There's not much width to that clip as is! Thanks for the detailed response.

So when you're grinding, obviously you're going through that clip all the way through to the bottom as well? I have it marked with a sharpie on the left side


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6248bf7be.jpeg

I used a dremel

Dremel tool here.

[QUOTE=STG991;13039083]Gotcha. There's not much width to that clip as is! Thanks for the detailed response.

So when you're grinding, obviously you're going through that clip all the way through to the bottom as well? I have it marked with a sharpie on the left side


Yes, the whole side.

Installed the tweeters today. Thanks again to all the contributors that helped make this seem possible for a DIY'er like myself.

A few things I learned while installing them:
I started with the passenger side as it is easier to work with without having the steering wheel in the way. Once I popped off the silver plastic trim (held in place by 2 tabs - just pull forcefully straight out) I was able to get the vent off. It was difficult for me to grip the vent in order to get it to slide out initially. I found by placing a plastic prybar between the upper leather covering and the vent I could start to work it straight out. Once you get about a centimeter out then it is easier to grip and pull the rest of the way out. There is a wire connecting to the vent but I just let the vent dangle as it provided enough clearance.

Instead of popping the edges of the speaker cover near the window first I actually went with the clip furthest from the windshield first. This clip is designed differently than the other two and make it much more difficult to remove by just prying upward. Long needle-nose pliers were crucial for this step. I just pinched the clip from below and was able to use my fingers to gently lift the speaker cover up and pop it out of the hole. Then the other two clips were easy to remove by just pulling the speaker cover upward.

Disconnecting the bose tweeter can be made very easy. Pop off the metal clip holding the tweeter to the grill and then set the grill aside. There is a small hole in the middle of the connector - stick a small flathead screwdriver in that slot and then the clip will disconnect easily with a little wiggling.

There has been a lot of discussion about grinding down the speednuts. As someone earlier suggested, if you just rotate them 90 degrees then they fit fine without any grinding and secure like normal. I'm sure this saved a lot of time because grinding down both sides of 6 clips would be very time consuming. Once you push the speednuts onto the tabs, connect the new tweeter and screw it down. I used a ratcheting screw driver that can be turned 90 degrees. Having the right tools definitely makes all the difference. I also swapped out that difficult to remove clip with a regular clip from the stock speaker grill so in case I have to take it apart again I won't have to remove the vent.

Drivers side can be done with the exact same steps. I'd say it took about 30 minutes for the passenger side and 15 for the drivers side.

Attachment 1202370
Attachment 1202371
Attachment 1202372
Attachment 1202373

I DD my car about 15k miles per year and while I definitely enjoy the sounds of sport + PSE, sometimes it is nice to listen to music too. Just playing with the setting in the car I'm blown away with how much better it sounds.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...fast-cap-400v/

with help from lunarx

cross over should be about 3.3 kHz

soldered on the positive wire

so the harness you made in your post 269 did not work?

PM sent. Thanks!:)

I haven't had the time to install it yet

but I have "bench tested" it outside the car. Hooked it up to an amplifier
and it definitely acts as a high pass filter

I don't expect any problems but

The capacitor is rather large (about the size of a 1/3 roll of those lifesaver candies)
so I hope there is enough room in the dash around the tweeter site to fit the capacitor.

that is probably the only thing i'm concerned about with this install

There should be plenty of room below the tweeter mount for that cap. I would recommend wrapping it in a strip of foam tape just so that it doesn't try to rattle against any plastic under the surface.

I replaced those crap Bose tweeters with Ciare CT250. Sounds 10 times better, and I don't really think that Burmester sounds that great to begin with. They fit right into the existing hole with existing metal bracket and bare end wires are plugged into the Bose connector. Electric tape is applied to hold them into place just in case. No soldering needed. Also, I just yanked the grills out leaving that stubborn clip to drop. Picked them up with shallow magnet and never bothered to put them back on. Grills hold with two clips just fine.

Anyone in the Atlanta area that has done this? I'm clueless when it comes to messing with audio.

Appreciate this is a Bose thread that already has a sub, but has anyone installed a sub in the designated location either R or L to upgrade a standard stereo installation to include a sub ?

I would assume the captive nuts to hold the sub in place are installed on all cars ?

Appreciate the amp requirements etc, but does there seem to be any other physical features in the sub box area that may not be in a standard car ?

The provisions for the factory subwoofer do not exist in the ASK base system. I just did a full analysis on one yesterday.

Your best opportunity for adding a subwoofer to that platform is aftermarket.

Wow thanks 12vNick ........... that is very interesting, I would have thought that in manufacturing it would have been easier just to include the sound box area, I even thought it looked like just part of the body structure that they then used for the sub sound box. ...... back to the drawing board it would seem.

Really didn't like the thought of a footwell sub.

No problem, happy to help.

If you have a coupe, a good custom shop can build an OE-looking enclosure in the rear package tray.

What are your goals for the performance? I might be able to help with some suggestions.

12VNick,

Any luck on putting together those upgrade packages?

They're in the works. With anything we do there's a epic amount of R&D involved. Just finished all of the in-depth research on the base stereo model yesterday. Schedule to finish the Bose system analysis in a couple weeks. If everything falls in place the way we hope we'll be taking pre-orders in the next two months.

Installed today by my audio guys. First time for them. Like 1.5hrs. They can do it in like 1hr next time.

For the clips, they just snipped the top of the clip a bit. Worked great, without all that filing. Put the capacitors on as well. They were a tight fit under the tweeters. The new grill covers are very hard to snap into place too.

Still can't believe what a piece of junk the Bose tweeters are. Quarter sized junk that cost no more than $5.00 to make.

Tony, thanks for all the pics and step by step and Lunarx for starting this.

I am glad I did not attempt to do this myself!


:confused: What are the most up to date preferred settings now??


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...369f9cceb.jpeg
Cut clip on the left ^^


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93dfbe1a9.jpeg
Cut clips in place ^^

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...fast-cap-400v/

All parts from Luke at Sunset Porsche in OR

STG991 told me earlier today, that it sounds like Taylor Swift is riding shotgun and Justin Bieber is in the rear.

Ok, that came out weird. :)

Really doesn't count if you did not do the install yourself -- having an installer do it for you is just plain cheating!!!

Is the capacitor required?

I'm a good idea guy, but not always the best DIY on some things. I'm no "Plenum" on here.

Washing a car?? Nobody can touch me.

Most guys haven't done them so far. Good insurance I suppose? I guess filters out the bass which shouldn't be going to the tweeters anyway I've gathered?

Sorry that I am late to this thread. Why rip your CD to MP3? If your system can play back ALAC, you can rip your CD to 44.1kHz/16-bit and get CD quality vs. 320kps? If you use ALAC, your file size will be larger but you will get closer to 800-900kps and the sound quality is much better. If your system cannot play ALAC, you can buy an iPod Classic and use a simple iPod cable to interface with your Bose stereo and that will play ALAC at 48/24. I am not sure the Bose can interface with FLAC players but, if it can, that would be the best way to get 192/24 Hi-Rez files played on your system. Playing back Hi-Rez files is one of the reasons I opted to go aftermarket on my player head, amps, and subswoofer. However, I know this thread is about maximizing the sound of your Bose stereo so one way to improve sound is to improve the music source. Garbage in, garbage out. The higher the resolution of the song, the better it will sound.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ff2c2d1a91.png

Audison Prima 8.9 which has built in DSP, can hook up with PC and customized. 35w X 8 with sub pre-out.
Looks like a good Bose replacement which can be installed under the passenger seat.

DrCGuerra, unfortunately the Bose does not play ALAC.
I have some 24bit WAV files (converted from FLAC), for my HQ Content, but I found a 24bit FLAC to 320k mp3 conversion sounds plenty good also.

What head unit did you use for your full aftermarket install?
Someday I hope to ditch the Factory PCM.

Master John, this product looks incredible.
Seems like it would be an easy retrofit (if ditching the PCM).

Audison Prima 8.9 accepts high level inputs, so speaker outs from Bose amp can be plugged into this unit direct, then rerouted to speakers. No need to change PCM 3.1. You will have active channels/speakers tailored to your liking. I will do this upgrade and post shortly. Audison unit is about $750 shipped from Italy.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bd71fa6168.jpg

Its small enough to fit right next to the Bose amp, under the seat.

That's odd. A friend of mine took my advice and burned all his CD to ALAC 44.1/16 and he says Led Zeppelin never sounded so good. He has a 2015 GTS and I do not know if the PCM changed from your model year. Also, did you rip your files to 24-bit from CD or did you purchase them from HDTracks or similar and converted them to WAV 24-bit? If from CD, you are adding extra information when you artificially increase the bit rate from 16-bit to 24-bit. I am guess that your Bose will integrate with an iPod. If it does, rip your CD to 44.1/16 ALAC and your FLAC files to 48/24 and play them back on an iPod Classic (I think the largest one they make is 160 GB). As for the digital processor, my custom installer can install one for around $2,500 (that includes processor, installation, and tuning). For not much more, you can get a new head and amp. Mine plays FLAC, ALAC, etc. It also has CarPlay. I am running 600 watts to the main speakers and 600 watts to the sub. It sounds fantastic and I am still using the stock speakers. For all that believe the stock stereo sucks because of the speakers and head unit, it's not the speakers. It is the head unit and, mostly, the amp. It will probably even sound better with the Bose and/or Burmester speakers. I will probably swap out my speakers for MB Quartz, Hertz, or Morel around Christmas but, right now, they still sound awesome so I am still debating on it. My custom installer does not believe I will really get that much better sound if I went with aftermarket speakers. He was really impressed with the sound of the stock speaker. If you want to see pictures and my entire system, below is my thread. It also included a custom V1 and ALP jammer install. The sub fits behind the rear seat on that shelf space.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/9208...o-upgrade.html

The best I could get out of the PCM unit (Bose) was 16:44 WAV. I tried several variants of FLAC and WAV, 16:44 was all that works - of course I didn't expect DSD to work, and it didn't :)

My car is a 2013, PCM is at 2.74 (I think)

That is the maximum you can get from a CD so you, at least, get CD quality and that usually is between 600-800kbs vs. 320kbs. So your quality will be nearly 2-2.5 times the resolution. Some would argue that you will not be able to tell that much of a difference between 320 vs. 600+ but you can. It's not like doubling HP in a car but it will make a difference, IMO.

I just finished upgrading to all Burmester speakers in my 981 (I didn't add the dash sub as the 8" door woofers now put out a ton of clean bass)! To drive everything, I installed the Audison Prima 8.9, running all 8 channels active. It's 35W x 8 @ 4 ohms, but puts out 65W x 8 @ 2 ohms - which is what Burmester & Bose speakers are... so needless to say - it's plenty of power and sounds amazing! Note that I have the base radio (CDR31) which doesn't have an outboard amp, so I simply used the high level signal out of the oem head unit into the amp. It's is an amazing amp/dsp, with a ton of flexibility. There is def a learning curve as some of the crossover settings aren't intuitive unless you do your homework, otherwise you'll have phase issues, etc. I've been tweaking these setting for a week, which honestly is a lot of fun!

MasterJohn - I'd be really curious what crossover points and settings you chose and I'd be more than happy to share my results as these changes make a huge impact on the sound!

Thanks, Chad996. I will definitely share DSP settings once I get them all hooked up, Active! Did you use low level or high level input to your Audison? I would have to get to the Bose amp to find out to see if there is identifiable low level from PCM.

I owned a 981 GTS and I used the same system that I put in my 991 GTS but I was able to get away with the same 600 watt JL Audio amp to drive my speakers and 6'sub. JL Audio make a great 6" sub with kit that fits in the back hatch corner so it doesn't take up any room and makes a huge difference. I have the 6" sub and box and do not know what to do with it. If interested, DM me and I will see about selling it.

PM sent

The only option on the CDR 31 is high level / speaker outputs (as it has a 25W x 2 internal amp x 4 for those with SPP)...The input calibration on the Audison showed about 3v input which seems to be level-matched well. You'll want to use the high level output from the Bose amp for sure (others have tried the low-level with poor results). The Audison is made for high level and can accept from 2v to 15v input...and it will sum the channels and De Eq., but honestly - you only need to tap into the Front L & R channels as your main input as they have been confirmed to be full signal (as they drive the front Mid & Tweets from the same channels). That's the only input you need, the AMP/DSP will copy the signal and do the rest...

See post #12 for wiring diagram:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...iagram-no-pcm/

I just realized that you tried many different variants of FLAC and WAV and the best you could record at was 44/16 WAV. Did you ever try ALAC? If your source is a CD, the best you are going to do is 44.1/16. However, if you download from HDTracks or similar, you can burn them at 48/24.

Bose... what Bose? :D

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a1b6834abc.jpg

How do you like your Dynaudio? I had MB Quartz in my M3s and loved the sound. My custom installer offers Dynaudio, Hertz, MB Quartz, and Morel. I have heard them all but Dynaudio. Have you listened to the others and, if you have, how do they compare?

Oops, MB Quart.

This is the best that I found the Bose can play:
WAV 24bit 44.1k
MP3 320kbps 48k

As DrCGuerra said, no point using 48k MP3 or 24bit WAV from CD.
48k MP3 & 24bit WAV is for when you convert a 24bit 96K Master (or better) to play on your Bose.
Both above sound good, but it's a trade-off on WAV quality vs MP3 metadata.


Waiting to hear about this... :corn:

That's awesome.
How did you wire your speakers?
Did you separate the Dash-Tweeters, Door-Mids & Door-Woofers?
Did you run a Center Channel?
Did you delete the Rear Speakers?

If that's true that your Bose system can only play WAV or MP3, your only other solution is to use an iPod Classic & rip to ALAC. That's not a bad solution because you can rip to 48/24. 24-bit depth is much more important in fidelity than sample rate, IMO.

Sorry, let me try this again. I have a lot of digital files in different formats. I saved a variety to a USB stick to see what PCM would accept. The upper limit was 16:44 in the WAV format. Fortunately it does accept WAV files with ID3 tagging so the album artwork shows up on the display.

Also, (I've posted this elsewhere) I'm using a 256GB USB stick to hold my music. This works well though it does take about 60 seconds to index all the songs every time I start the car. I tried a 1TB USB powered spinner, it would power the drive but it never indexed it - so 256GB it is. :D

Since I had the base system, I only had the 2 door woofer (turns out they were only 6.5" inside 8" surrounds) & dash tweeters. These were wired together like the mids & tweets are on Bose. As a result, I had to run new wires to everything. The additional wire through the door grommets were almost impossible as they are sealed at the top inside the doors! If I did it again, I'd buy a Bose door wire harness to make my life easier (note, one could tap into the door midrange at the connectors in the side fuse panels going to the doors as the wire split occurs inside the cabin) .

I like the addition of the rear speakers in my 981's cabin as they provide a nice rear fill, without pulling away from the front sound stage as I decreased their output. I'm wondering now if I should have added the center channel... Although I'm out of channels on the amp, I could drive it from my receiver or rearrange and drive the rears from it. Not sure if bridging it from the front mids would work...

Do you guys notice the center channel much in non-surround mode? Do you think it's worth adding it? Going from 4 speakers, to now 8 is a huge improvement, especially with the AMT tweeters., but I'm wondering if the center channel will make things even better?? Thoughts?

My installer disconnected it. He told me he disconnects all center channels in the 981 and 991. He says the center channel is garbage and cause more distortion than actually give off good sound. Plus, not easy to replace.

Which car was this base system in? All of the "Base Stereo" cars I've tested lately have the 8" 3-Way system.

So, regardless of odd impedence of terrible boomy, muddy sound of Bose system on 991, I just swapped out the speakers with 4 ohm component set. Focal IS200 at $200 bucks on ebay, comes with 8 inch woofers and tweeters. Note 8 inch woofers, unlike most set comes with 6.5 inch woofers, why not utilize that huge almost 9 inch whole on both doors, right?

Woofer Change: 1 ohm Bose 8 inch woofers to 4 ohm 8 inch Focals. Finally, the cheap boomy base cleared up with tight mid-base. Plenty of volume considering 1 ohm to 4 ohm.

Tweeter Change: 4 ohm Bose to 4 ohm Focals. Much less fatigue from cheap highs, and way clearer vocals.

Cost: $280. $200 for Focal IS200. $80 for custom adapters on woofers.

Installation: tweeters slide right in, and you can use the existing metal bracket to hold them down, perfect! Woofers are bit challenging since the Bose has some weird mounting hardwares, so just get with local shop to make some custom baffles.

Result: Now you can enjoy music in 991. It is not sonic nirvana, but it is acceptably enjoyable without straining your ears. Afterall, it was the most cost effective solution with minimal modification/installation.

I have a '14 981 Cayman with the base radio (2 x 25W), the Sound Package Plus adds the 4" mid for the 3-way, at least in the 981. The Macan apparently uses the smaller 6.5" in the 8" surround as well. The difference is huge!

Back side...

Thanks for the pictures Chad996Pgh, I wasn't even aware they had a version like that. BMW did this back in 2010 to save money on base model imports. Horrible sound.

Sure thing! I was surprised to find that after I took the door panels off..No wonder I couldn't get a good sound out of them..when I was testing out different crossover setting, nothing sounded good except some a little midbass as vocals were pretty hollow.

Given I have the 8" Burmesters in the doors, band-passed at 40-250 (and sounding good) do you think adding a custom corner-loaded 6.5" JL 6w3V3 Sub would add any benefit?

Thoughts on adding a center?

The 6W3 is a phenomenal-sounding little sub that would definitely help the sound — just put one in an R8 and loved it.

I wouldn't bother with the center, waste of time in a car. There are other more rewarding upgrades.

Don't want to veer too much off topic though - PM me if you have more questions.

Hey 12vNick. Any more info on the Dynaudio for the 991? Which speakers actually fit in the front door?

The front door houses an 8" Woofer and a 4" Midrange. The speakers used in that build were the Esotar E650 and E430. I'll post up a build log soon.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...601b3a7484.jpg

What speakers are in the back quarter panels and did you replace them with Esotar speakers?

Rear speakers? Who needs those?