Supersprint-Evolve

Depends which graph you mean, some show wheel and estimated crank etc

The ECU only really needs adjusting when you remove cats. Even then its not a necessity but is good to take advantage.

Many manufacturers quote HP gains for mufflers, or cat-backs where in reality there is barely any, as the exhaust gases have already done their work by the time they get there.

YellowPMan

I'm sorry to disagree..but in the real world with any exhaust upgrade be it your system,capristo,miltek..with just a replacement system and no ecu re-map from a 6cyl 3.8 rwd manual the best bhp you could hope for would be in the area of 5-8bhp at the wheel...

If you really are achieving 29bhp..I suggest you start supplying porsche Germany to make these an option ...way cheaper than the x51 power upgrade...which only gives 30bhp..Porsche R&D must be worried..

To gain 5-10 bhp feeling I think I'll go on a diet ,shed 30lb and get the same feeling...saving money 2 fold..exhaust and take-outs..

Supersprint-Evolve

For the 991 setup as you rightly pointed out we haven't quoted BHP gains. On cat-back systems there are rarely gains to be had (where did 29hp come from?)

But when you replace the cats, or improve the headers, you can gain significantly without the need for a tune.

Many examples from the F10 M5 to the GT3 below. Here are the notes and dyno's of our system gaining near on 20hp without a tune on a GT3 3.8:

OEM data:
Horsepower 446,0 Hp @ 8005 rpm
Torque 425,1 Nm @ 5390

Supersprint:
- Step-Design Manifold R.-L. 245801
- Metallic kat R.-L. WRC 245802
- Rear Exhaust OO 90 244526

Actual data:
Horsepower 465,7 @ 8185
Torque 437,4 @ 6640

+19.7 hp with a full catted system – no tune.



The reason these parts work so well is due to the stepped design. Supersprint now build these into a range of headers for their BMW M3 E46, Audi S4/S5 3.0TFSI, Nissan 370Z, Ferrari F430, Lotus Elise/Exige SC applications.

The stepped design is ideal on cars with small exhaust ports and wide rev ranges.

Of course this doesn't cover the same for each application. But as I mentioned originally, its the cats that withhold the power and replacing these with racing versions on top of well designed headers allows more power without an ECU tune.

YellowPMan

[QUOTE=Supersprint-Evolve;10382116]For the 991 setup as you rightly pointed out we haven't quoted BHP gains. On cat-back systems there are rarely gains to be had (where did 29hp come from?)

But when you replace the cats, or improve the headers, you can gain significantly without the need for a tune.

Many examples from the F10 M5 to the GT3 below. Here are the notes and dyno's of our system gaining near on 20hp without a tune on a GT3 3.8:

OEM data:
Horsepower 446,0 Hp @ 8005 rpm
Torque 425,1 Nm @ 5390

Supersprint:
- Step-Design Manifold R.-L. 245801
- Metallic kat R.-L. WRC 245802
- Rear Exhaust OO 90 244526

Actual data:
Horsepower 465,7 @ 8185
Torque 437,4 @ 6640

+19.7 hp with a full catted system – no tune.



The reason these parts work so well is due to the stepped design. Supersprint now build these into a range of headers for their BMW M3 E46, Audi S4/S5 3.0TFSI, Nissan 370Z, Ferrari F430, Lotus Elise/Exige SC applications.

The stepped design is ideal on cars with small exhaust ports and wide rev ranges.

Of course this doesn't cover the same for each application. But as I mentioned originally, its the cats that withhold the power and replacing these with racing versions on top of well designed headers allows more power without an ECU tune.[/QUOTE

The OP stated the figures on another supplier ...think it was fabspeed exhaust.
I did point out and defended that you guys were not making any bhp gains claim. Sorry if you think this is an attack on your product..but as you know there are many fantastic claims of bhp gains by many well established suppliers.

Are your outputs quoted at the crank or wheel?
And how much low end torque did you lose?

Supersprint-Evolve

Your absolutely right. To be brutally honest, it seems to be more prevalent in the Porsche market than anything else we are in. BMW there is a small amount of 'exaggeration' but we've not come across these fantastic claims before.

The issue from our point of (being a distributor) is that Supersprint both are conservative with their figures as they have a 50+ year reputation to consider, and their dyno is a MAHA which is very conservative too, but as a testing machine is one of the best due to the accuracy/consistency. We do ask our customers to test on machines such as Dynojets - which is what the industry has become used to, as its a high reading machine - but its not always possible as you can imagine.

The GT3 is a perfect example. What they did with the design is brilliant and took an age to get perfect. To get 20 'real' horsepower from it was a challenge even for them. But then you are up against claims of imaginary gains you know aren't real... what's a distributor to do

For the above they are crank - as you can see on the graph there's a dip right at 1900k RPM but gathers it back a bit later. Our customers who have tried all the other systems tell us it retains the most torque out of anything they've tried as well as giving actual gains they can feel. As you rightly pointed out also - with an ECU tune it really takes advantage of the added flow.

YellowPMan

Thank you for your total honesty..and it's refreshing to hear you are not just box shifters..and care about your customers and the quality of your products. A rare thing in this day and age..

I always feel the R&D budgets of the performance car manufacturers are huge, and if any simple bolt on item can extract more bhp without putting extra load on engines they would be available as options at hugely profitable margins..I agree comparing options like PSE against aftermarket exhausts that provide better quality, lighter, and in the ears of many better sound is a fair purchase. I've done this with a capristo system..only for the nice sound over stock exhaust..took no notice of claimed bhp gains..

Thank you for you response..keep up the good service

Supersprint-Evolve

SM_ATL

Thanks a lot to YellowPman and Paul to put all this in perspective.

I'd like to share some personal experience and an article found in "911 & Porsche World" (not the same car, not the same systems, but a couple of reference points):

Fabspeed Performance package (Maxflo mufflers, headers, X-Pipe sportcats, tips, ECU upgrade, Competition Intake) on my 2003 996 C2:





The results were satisfactory with a gain of 24hp at the wheels and 21 ft.lbs of torque. The dyno shows a max power of 312 hp at the wheels at 7,100 rpm and 270 ft.lbs of torque at 4,500 rpm (not too far from what Fabspeed claimed)

The significant increase in torque around 3,500 rpm is clearly noticeable and given the performance improvement and the nice sound of the exhaust, I would recommend this type of upgrade.

Fabspeed headers with sportcats on my first 991S:



No dyno data here. Fabspeed claims +17hp and +14 ft.lbs of torque to the wheels at 6500 RPM (does not mention if it is for the catless or sportcats headers though). This is probably a bit optimistic.

My subjective feedback is that it made the throttle feel a bit more responsive and there was a bit more sound (in both PSE mode). Hard to put a number on this. I liked those headers as they made the 991S feel different (read 'personalized').
I had also installed BMC air filters, but I think that the hp gain there was mostly psychological

Article about a Full Capristo Exhaust on a Cayman R:

I found the following article interesting as it underlines a few of the points that have been made in this thread:
-Porsche naturally aspirated engines (and their exhausts) are already optimized to perform close to their maximum potential (if anything, only emission & sound regulations as well as reported mpg are the limiting factors)
-Numbers claims by exhaust manufacturers are probably on the (very) optimistic side. In the case of this article, a remap was required to come close to the performance improvement claimed by Capristo WITHOUT an ECU tune...





Back to my original idea of doing something on my new 991S exhaust, here's where I stand:

-I have a (very) hard time believing the performance claims of the manufacturers (especially Agency Power)
-I am not ready to go for an ECU on the 991S (and no reputable tuner has a product on the market anyhow)
-I may go once again for the Fabspeed headers as I had a positive (though qualitative only) experience with them
-If I want more sound/less weight, I may then go for another valved exhaust that would be close to PSE in quiet mode and straight pipes in loud mode.
-I have seen nices pics of 'blue flame' tips and I liked them... OK, this brings zero performance improvement.