Why a new Power Steering option?
01-29-2013, 02:50 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
If this is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't), I think it's mildly scandalous that Porsche is charging $270 as an "option" for a 5 minute software tweak.
01-29-2013, 02:50 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
All I can say is that coming from a 997 GTS, I test drove a 991 S cab and remarked how overly-light the new car's steering was. I thought it was just the characteristic of the new 991 steering. I didn't like it at all. Then, when I came back to the dealership and looked at the window sticker, I noticed that it had PSP. I subsequently test drove one without it and preferred it much more. I also have a Panamera GTS without it and love the steering. My wife drives it mainly and she likes it too, but then she is a hardcore Porsche girl. I plan to buy a 991C4S very soon, and it will definitely be without it.
No, I don't feel that way at all. I wouldn't even agree that steering is lighter than the same car without it until you get into the lowest speed ranges. And nothing is unpredictable about the transition. In fact, I can't feel the transition. As I say, it doesn't get lighter, it just doesn't let the steering grow heavy as fast as a car without the feature.
I read those original complaints about the new "electric steering" and you have to read those comments with the understanding that the writers were full of what we spread on the fields every year. We've discussed it at length in other threads, but briefly -- and skipping the very long list of things it is not, like 'fly-by-wire' -- it is simply using an electric motor to assist instead of a hydraulic one. This has the advantage of permitting computer control that is much more refined than hydraulic techniques. (I'm talking about all the current cars, not just the PSP option.)
The big difference in feel to me in driving this and a 997 back to back is the change in the chassis, not the change in the steering assist. I can feel the road surface through the steering, and the work being done by the tires, just as easily. Possibly even a little better, because the 997 has some chassis effects going on that distract from the essential information about the tires.
ChuckPDC has a good description of the older feel that I haven't time to dig out just now. Besides, we've talked it to death already. Bottom line: certainly no problem with omitting the Power Steering Plus if you don't need it, but if a car you like has it installed, it won't detract from your enjoyment. And if you need it, it is wonderful.
[Forgot to answer this: Without knowing their motives, I'd say no. We have been complaining of the compromises caused by this issue for decades. It is notorious in muscle cars with all that engine weight on the tires that do the steering. Make it easy to park one and you have a dangerous light steering feel at higher speeds. Hydraulic systems just do not have good solutions that are cost effective. Computer control makes them feasible but it's awfully expensive to do it with this precision in a hydraulic system. It is feasible with an electrical assist motor. At least on a car with a manufacturing cost roll-up that's already as high as the Carrera.]
Gary
I read those original complaints about the new "electric steering" and you have to read those comments with the understanding that the writers were full of what we spread on the fields every year. We've discussed it at length in other threads, but briefly -- and skipping the very long list of things it is not, like 'fly-by-wire' -- it is simply using an electric motor to assist instead of a hydraulic one. This has the advantage of permitting computer control that is much more refined than hydraulic techniques. (I'm talking about all the current cars, not just the PSP option.)
The big difference in feel to me in driving this and a 997 back to back is the change in the chassis, not the change in the steering assist. I can feel the road surface through the steering, and the work being done by the tires, just as easily. Possibly even a little better, because the 997 has some chassis effects going on that distract from the essential information about the tires.
ChuckPDC has a good description of the older feel that I haven't time to dig out just now. Besides, we've talked it to death already. Bottom line: certainly no problem with omitting the Power Steering Plus if you don't need it, but if a car you like has it installed, it won't detract from your enjoyment. And if you need it, it is wonderful.
[Forgot to answer this: Without knowing their motives, I'd say no. We have been complaining of the compromises caused by this issue for decades. It is notorious in muscle cars with all that engine weight on the tires that do the steering. Make it easy to park one and you have a dangerous light steering feel at higher speeds. Hydraulic systems just do not have good solutions that are cost effective. Computer control makes them feasible but it's awfully expensive to do it with this precision in a hydraulic system. It is feasible with an electrical assist motor. At least on a car with a manufacturing cost roll-up that's already as high as the Carrera.]
Gary
01-29-2013, 03:11 PM
#18
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Not as scandalous as electrically detuning the 3.4L Boxster S motor to make 10% less power than the mechanically identical 991 Carrera 3.4L motor...
01-29-2013, 05:06 PM
#19
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I think what you've done is make a "probably harmless" change to your configuration.
Gary
01-29-2013, 05:20 PM
#20
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That's another reason for doubting the 'tweak' is all it takes. Porsche includes coding that makes every software installation specific to your VIN number when the software is a revenue item. Viz: the sport mode software on a 997 which I ordered and installed for about a grand. If PSP were only software, I'm pretty confident it would be VIN-coded and encrypted like all their other products.
Gary
01-29-2013, 06:16 PM
#22
Race Car
01-29-2013, 06:47 PM
#23
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01-29-2013, 08:31 PM
#24
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I recall it was an answer from a factory rep when asked the question in an interview in some auto mag, but I went looking and still can't find a link. Might have been something actually on paper!
PS- on planet 9 a few months ago we explored the same subject. At the time my post was:
"I believe I read that the engines differ mainly in the intake manifold- due to "room" advantages in the 991 compared to the 981.
But I'd bet it is in the room for product merchandising more than anything that could not be accommodated."
PS- on planet 9 a few months ago we explored the same subject. At the time my post was:
"I believe I read that the engines differ mainly in the intake manifold- due to "room" advantages in the 991 compared to the 981.
But I'd bet it is in the room for product merchandising more than anything that could not be accommodated."
01-29-2013, 09:16 PM
#25
You have shown that the system has no way to check whether the hypothetical additional hardware is actually installed, and that the steering will work with the a mismatch of software and hardware. Mind you, I don't assert that PSP entails additional hardware. I just say that it's entirely plausible that rpilot is right and all you managed to do was install the software map without installing the corresponding hardware.
Gary
Gary
http://sonnenporscheoemparts.com/par...ow=1&maxRow=10
I chose 991 instead of S, because I did not want to figure out which was the 997 and which one was for 991 since 2012 is the latest part catalog they have. With the 3.4 it is obvious it is the 991. Anyways, they do have 2 different steering racks even though the line diagram for ordering is very similar. If you go through the 3 pages of parts for the 991, note the part where the steering assembly that lists for $1,9xx.xx. Apparently there are 2 different flavors of these even though Porsche is charging the same price for parts. (which in itself is not unusual for a manufacturer).
While this does not definitively prove that there is some kind of gear assembly inside the PSP, it is reasonable to assume that there are 2 different kinds of steering hardware for the 991.
01-29-2013, 10:55 PM
#26
Furthermore...
From Porsche on 991 chassis..
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...etail/chassis/
On page 2 of the steering section...
"Power steering Plus
Power steering Plus, the comfort-enhancing power-steering system, is available as an option for the 911 Carrera models. At high speeds, the steering is as firm extreme precision while steering comfort remains as high. At low speeds, the steering ratio of Power steering Plus adjusts for much easier maneuvering and parking. "
Of course, it could be miniature space aliens instead of a planetary gear box changing the ratio...
And Also .. Servotronic is simply a marketing name for the Variable Assist part as well as the PSP as far as Porsche is concerned (although a bit muddled and confusing)..
From Porsche on Panamera Hybrid...
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/pa...etail/chassis/
In the "Steering and Servotronic" section...
" "Precise" and "direct" describe a Porsche steering system with variable-steering ratio. Around the straight-ahead position, such as during motorway driving, the ratio is less direct with no loss of agility or feedback from the road. When the steering wheel is turned further, the ratio becomes more direct, allowing easier cornering and parking.
Standard on the Panamera S Hybrid and Panamera Turbo S and optional for all other Panamera models is Servotronic, a speed-sensitive power-steering system. At high speeds, the steering is firm and responds with extreme precision while steering comfort remains as high as you would expect. At low speeds, Power Steering Plus, ratio adjusts for easy maneuvering and parking "
And... as far as BMW is concerned (since boxy brought up the BMW connection), Servotronic is their name for the Variable assist technology and they call their Variable Ratio technology, " Active Steering" and they actually talk about planetary gears in there.
---
So, in conclusion, there are two steering racks for the 991 and PSP has variable ratios (albeit it is quite possible miniature space aliens who eat ball bearing grease and respond to electronic stimuli may be changing the ratios instead of planetary gears
)
From Porsche on 991 chassis..
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...etail/chassis/
On page 2 of the steering section...
"Power steering Plus
Power steering Plus, the comfort-enhancing power-steering system, is available as an option for the 911 Carrera models. At high speeds, the steering is as firm extreme precision while steering comfort remains as high. At low speeds, the steering ratio of Power steering Plus adjusts for much easier maneuvering and parking. "
Of course, it could be miniature space aliens instead of a planetary gear box changing the ratio...
And Also .. Servotronic is simply a marketing name for the Variable Assist part as well as the PSP as far as Porsche is concerned (although a bit muddled and confusing)..
From Porsche on Panamera Hybrid...
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/pa...etail/chassis/
In the "Steering and Servotronic" section...
" "Precise" and "direct" describe a Porsche steering system with variable-steering ratio. Around the straight-ahead position, such as during motorway driving, the ratio is less direct with no loss of agility or feedback from the road. When the steering wheel is turned further, the ratio becomes more direct, allowing easier cornering and parking.
Standard on the Panamera S Hybrid and Panamera Turbo S and optional for all other Panamera models is Servotronic, a speed-sensitive power-steering system. At high speeds, the steering is firm and responds with extreme precision while steering comfort remains as high as you would expect. At low speeds, Power Steering Plus, ratio adjusts for easy maneuvering and parking "
And... as far as BMW is concerned (since boxy brought up the BMW connection), Servotronic is their name for the Variable assist technology and they call their Variable Ratio technology, " Active Steering" and they actually talk about planetary gears in there.
---
So, in conclusion, there are two steering racks for the 991 and PSP has variable ratios (albeit it is quite possible miniature space aliens who eat ball bearing grease and respond to electronic stimuli may be changing the ratios instead of planetary gears
)
01-29-2013, 11:48 PM
#27
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Furthermore...[...]
So, in conclusion, there are two steering racks for the 991 and PSP has variable ratios (albeit it is quite possible miniature space aliens who eat ball bearing grease and respond to electronic stimuli may be changing the ratios instead of planetary gears )
So, in conclusion, there are two steering racks for the 991 and PSP has variable ratios (albeit it is quite possible miniature space aliens who eat ball bearing grease and respond to electronic stimuli may be changing the ratios instead of planetary gears
)
Gary
01-30-2013, 01:17 AM
#28
In all seriousness though, if Porsche is using a different way to change steering ratios instead of planetary gears, I would love to know. But since these steering racks all come from the usual suspects.. ZF, Thyssen Krups, etc (with Porsche tuned software of course) and AFAIK, these companies use planetary gears for VGR (variable gear ratio) steering assemblies.
01-30-2013, 03:45 AM
#29
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IF Power Steering Plus can be enabled via software what about
voice control
bluetooth
navi
and so on ?
voice control
bluetooth
navi
and so on ?
01-30-2013, 04:26 AM
#30
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So at best, enabling something that has no supporting hardware does precisely nothing at all and at worst, fools related equipment to modify its behaviour in anticipation of the missing support (This can cause all sorts of undesirable behaviour including software lockups).
Yes, you could well have features that are entirely coded in software that do not require any form of additional hardware (or different hardware) installed. When a manufacturer does this they will not allow the dealers to be able to simply check a tickbox in a configuration program to enable the unpaid for feature. Unless somebody goofed up of course...
I'm with Gary on this one...
Rainier