3K mi break in period? is it really necessary with today's manufacturing tolerances?
#31
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
If someone wants to believe motoman says, that is their prerogative. Out of curiosity, I clicked that link. After quickly skimming the page where he states to change the engine oil after 20 miles and to substitute synthetic for regular oil, thats where I decided to close that window. I did not need to read anymore.
And for the record, whether you want to believe it or not, Porsche engineers do know more about the engines they build than some random yahoo somewhere !
#32
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
15 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
You said nothing about conspiracy theories, nor use the argument "Porsche knows best".
My argument is based on personal experience, and I am always open to new ideas rather than being afraid of change. I want to learn new things everyday, and that why I said if someone can offer technical information as a basis for their argument, I am happy to listen.
My argument is based on personal experience, and I am always open to new ideas rather than being afraid of change. I want to learn new things everyday, and that why I said if someone can offer technical information as a basis for their argument, I am happy to listen.
I don't really mean to offend, because I'm sure you don't realize how silly and worn-out your position is. We get this constantly. People say "I think such and such. Why won't you spend time showing me why I'm wrong?" Because I don't care. That's why. Go look on the back shelves of a bookstore, or these days just google the subject. You'll find somebody willing to spend weeks typing in a long-winded justification of your very own preconceived notions. Why should you change your mind? Pick a notion you don't care about and test that technique. See if I'm wrong. You can do whatever you prefer and feel justified because somebody with a smoking keyboard agrees with you.
Typing is easy. Actually knowing the answer to a question requires
- a good reason to bother;
- the training and tools to inquire;
- expensive research and time to do it.
Are you starting to understand our position?
It isn't really just engine break-in. It's any topic where the untrained intuition says it should be one way and people who spend years researching the question learn the answer is something else. Like... no!
![ooops](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon501.gif)
You already have the technical basis for my answer: I said so.
If you want to discuss that conclusion, enroll in engineering school and come back in six years when we can debate from the same foundation of knowledge and mathematical tools. Meanwhile, don't expect an argument from me or any other engineer. Until you pony up a fee, we really don't give a hoot how you take care of your car. And not much then. I've had more than one client pay a quarter million for advice and then do something else. Technical reasons don't always matter most. I hate to be trite, but Cindy laughed all the way to the bank when I told her. That really happens.
If it pleases you to drive your car hard and put it away wet, then go for it.
We don't care.
Gary
#33
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I can give you the phone number for my school of engineering. They keep an entire faculty on hand for that purpose. Rather pricey, but scholarships are available.
I don't really mean to offend, because I'm sure you don't realize how silly and worn-out your position is. We get this constantly. People say "I think such and such. Why won't you spend time showing me why I'm wrong?" Because I don't care. That's why. Go look on the back shelves of a bookstore, or these days just google the subject. You'll find somebody willing to spend weeks typing in a long-winded justification of your very own preconceived notions. Why should you change your mind? Pick a notion you don't care about and test that technique. See if I'm wrong. You can do whatever you prefer and feel justified because somebody with a smoking keyboard agrees with you.
Typing is easy. Actually knowing the answer to a question requires
Are you starting to understand our position?
It isn't really just engine break-in. It's any topic where the untrained intuition says it should be one way and people who spend years researching the question learn the answer is something else. Like... no!
[I started to list other topics, but God knows we have enough silliness arising from this one without poking another bear.]
You already have the technical basis for my answer: I said so.
If you want to discuss that conclusion, enroll in engineering school and come back in six years when we can debate from the same foundation of knowledge and mathematical tools. Meanwhile, don't expect an argument from me or any other engineer. Until you pony up a fee, we really don't give a hoot how you take care of your car. And not much then. I've had more than one client pay a quarter million for advice and then do something else. Technical reasons don't always matter most. I hate to be trite, but Cindy laughed all the way to the bank when I told her. That really happens.
If it pleases you to drive your car hard and put it away wet, then go for it.
We don't care.
Gary
I don't really mean to offend, because I'm sure you don't realize how silly and worn-out your position is. We get this constantly. People say "I think such and such. Why won't you spend time showing me why I'm wrong?" Because I don't care. That's why. Go look on the back shelves of a bookstore, or these days just google the subject. You'll find somebody willing to spend weeks typing in a long-winded justification of your very own preconceived notions. Why should you change your mind? Pick a notion you don't care about and test that technique. See if I'm wrong. You can do whatever you prefer and feel justified because somebody with a smoking keyboard agrees with you.
Typing is easy. Actually knowing the answer to a question requires
- a good reason to bother;
- the training and tools to inquire;
- expensive research and time to do it.
Are you starting to understand our position?
It isn't really just engine break-in. It's any topic where the untrained intuition says it should be one way and people who spend years researching the question learn the answer is something else. Like... no!
![ooops](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon501.gif)
You already have the technical basis for my answer: I said so.
If you want to discuss that conclusion, enroll in engineering school and come back in six years when we can debate from the same foundation of knowledge and mathematical tools. Meanwhile, don't expect an argument from me or any other engineer. Until you pony up a fee, we really don't give a hoot how you take care of your car. And not much then. I've had more than one client pay a quarter million for advice and then do something else. Technical reasons don't always matter most. I hate to be trite, but Cindy laughed all the way to the bank when I told her. That really happens.
If it pleases you to drive your car hard and put it away wet, then go for it.
We don't care.
Gary
As I said, I have based my theories strictly from my personal experiences. If someone asks for advice, I will tell them what I have found in real world applications. If someone wants to argue about it and call it a conspiracy theory, he better be able to back it up. If not, then he shouldnt say anything to the contrary.
I take the scientific approach to everything. I dont test one theory and form a final conclusion about what works and what doesnt, I see each scenario or method and use comparative analysis.
As I said before, you didnt give input one way or the other on the subject, so I wasnt trying to argue with you. Im saying anyone who tries to sway someone one way or another should offer helpful input. The topic of this thread was help with the best engine break in method. I believe the OP is looking for factual information so he can make the decision based on what sounds most logical to me (OP, correct me if I am wrong on that point).
I dont care how someone else drives their car, has no bearing on my life. When someone asks for advice and I have knowledge to share, Im always willing to help.
#34
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Yes, some people dont want to follow the manual and would prefer to drive their cars out of the box. Some do and just enjoy it, while others want to find others who have technical explanations for doing the same. I have a step in the first group, but I continue to run engines in fairly hard because personal experience shows me it works and following the break in procedures isnt really necessary.
If you are referring to me as the "mate of a mate" you arent seeing the entire picture. The engine builders I trust all have 10+ years working with race engines, and average 1-2 engines per week, top to bottom assembly. No Porsche engineer has time to design parts as well as hand assemble that many engines in the same time frame, no doubt about it. When it comes to physically machining and assembling an engine I put my faith in guys who have built 1500+hp engines for race teams, I dont leave it up to an engineer who designs parts (yes, engineers design individual parts and small systems, not 1 engineer designing and engine from the bottom up).
Rather than blaming this on conspiracy theories, why dont you offer up some evidence and experience to back up your thoughts. "Porsche knows best" isnt much to stand on in a technical arena.
Thats why I give solid information on my experiences. I dont care what others do, Im just saying what I have done and what works and what doesnt. If someone drives like a grandmother for 5000 miles it makes no difference to me. I offer technical advice, take it or leave it.
I always drive more aggressively than that, but you arent babying it very much which can account for the noticeable power you have compared with most others. Proof is in the pudding.
If you are referring to me as the "mate of a mate" you arent seeing the entire picture. The engine builders I trust all have 10+ years working with race engines, and average 1-2 engines per week, top to bottom assembly. No Porsche engineer has time to design parts as well as hand assemble that many engines in the same time frame, no doubt about it. When it comes to physically machining and assembling an engine I put my faith in guys who have built 1500+hp engines for race teams, I dont leave it up to an engineer who designs parts (yes, engineers design individual parts and small systems, not 1 engineer designing and engine from the bottom up).
Rather than blaming this on conspiracy theories, why dont you offer up some evidence and experience to back up your thoughts. "Porsche knows best" isnt much to stand on in a technical arena.
Thats why I give solid information on my experiences. I dont care what others do, Im just saying what I have done and what works and what doesnt. If someone drives like a grandmother for 5000 miles it makes no difference to me. I offer technical advice, take it or leave it.
I always drive more aggressively than that, but you arent babying it very much which can account for the noticeable power you have compared with most others. Proof is in the pudding.
Um, don't mean to be rude but exactly what technical arena are you referring to? Motomans, yours? Please. Enough already....lol
I would however concede offering further technical explanation on this matter and/or explaining my profession would be a complete utter waste of time. I've offered my take on this subject too many times previously and i'm getting tired. These days I prefer the entertainment side to it only.
jmct's account is 100% correct. It says it all.
And, frankly I really don't care how you or anyone else chooses to drive your car......which is another reason why i always prefer to buy new.
![popcorn](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)
Last edited by speed21; 12-28-2012 at 08:32 PM.
#35
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Best possible attitude is reaching for the corn. I never argue politics, religion, or break-in policy because people invest their self-worth in their views and really don't want "an answer" because they already chose one. I've been listening to emotional debates on all three for nearly seven decades now.
What puzzles me is how "engine break-in" ever got shuffled into the deck with those other two. Fascinating. And the content hasn't changed since they were discussing the '57 Ford!![popcorn](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)
Gary
What puzzles me is how "engine break-in" ever got shuffled into the deck with those other two. Fascinating. And the content hasn't changed since they were discussing the '57 Ford!
![popcorn](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)
Gary
And it's sure puzzling alright. Possibly just an anything goes approach in a bid to get some form of a toehold in on the subject...?...can only be that.
Popcorn is definitely the best way to go on this one for sure.
#36
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
In this case, nobody should ever buy a 991 off the lot that has more than a few miles on it? I'm sure atleast a few people rev'ed it to redline on their test drive with a car that has 200miles on it.
#37
#38
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
15 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Unless you have a few quarts of first-press virgin olive oil on hand. Then visit Olimotoman.com for his advice..
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
Gary, who definitely prefers new cars to used ones but we don't always get a choice, and please don't let's get started on how to choose a good used car
#39
Burning Brakes
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Interestingly, I wrote that before even reading simsgw's post.
#40
Race Car
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
HA, I am in luck. Why just the other week I purchased the very first VIRGIN pressing of Olive Oil according to the girl at the grocery store... Surely the virgin pressing will be the best for the longevity of my engine. The Porsche gods will no doubt appreciate it.
Interestingly, I wrote that before even reading simsgw's post.
Interestingly, I wrote that before even reading simsgw's post.
#41
Burning Brakes
#43
Instructor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
SB - I just thought of one other thing I'm not sure has been discussed yet as it is relatively new. I will disable the auto start-stop feature during the first couple/few hundred miles. This is a new feature to the 911 and I don't know if the break-in instructions address it, but frequent start-stops are not considered good for break-in because of the slight decrease in uniform heat distribution. The impact of this is hard to know but another way to think about it is before auto start-stop was a feature, no one was advising turning on and off your engine at every red light.
One other thing I forgot to mention in my other post is that if you saw the references to the mototuneusa.com website, the reason I wasn't pursuaded by his argument is primarily because he shows 2-cycle engine pistons and they have such a different combustion cycle and process than a 4-cycle that it didn't make sense to give his evidence a lot of weight in connection with a Porsche 911 engine and its engineers' advice. He states that his evidence should be considered universal but that is not a sensible comment in my opinion for the same reason I wrote in the preceding sentence. Possibly others in the forum have already pointed this out. Reading the Wikipedia pages for 2-and 4-cycle engines gives a pretty good example of how different the combustion is and why I am concluding that mototuneusa's information is not too compelling for our purposes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_engine).
One other thing I forgot to mention in my other post is that if you saw the references to the mototuneusa.com website, the reason I wasn't pursuaded by his argument is primarily because he shows 2-cycle engine pistons and they have such a different combustion cycle and process than a 4-cycle that it didn't make sense to give his evidence a lot of weight in connection with a Porsche 911 engine and its engineers' advice. He states that his evidence should be considered universal but that is not a sensible comment in my opinion for the same reason I wrote in the preceding sentence. Possibly others in the forum have already pointed this out. Reading the Wikipedia pages for 2-and 4-cycle engines gives a pretty good example of how different the combustion is and why I am concluding that mototuneusa's information is not too compelling for our purposes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_engine).
Last edited by jmct; 12-30-2012 at 03:17 AM.
#44
Instructor
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Having myself spent some dozen or more hours on this "beaten to death" subject what I've noticed is there are some interesting claims made, and one beautifully metaphorical philosophical view, but nothing that actually addresses any of the very clear points raised here
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_engine
I did not see much from mototuneusa.com to support his assertion that his results should be viewed universally - would you mind commenting on why you feel so strongly about its applicability to 911 break-in?
Thanks
#45
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
![popcorn](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)
I think he dug the hole deep enough putting it up in the first place. Something tells me that trying to explain it will only make that hole deeper.
PS. From my understanding RL is supposed to be more of a technical forum free of this silly tripe. If only Olimotoman's story was posted up at 6bling they would have lapped it up, and with rep points.