Why use electric power steering?
10-06-2011, 09:45 AM
#61
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Alex it's not cost cutting. It's political correctness and sucking up to enviros. Electric power steering theoretically reduces gas consumption 1/4 mpg! Save the planet!
10-08-2011, 09:57 AM
#62
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Rohrl specifically mentioned using the system as part of the safety suite, allowing the vehicle to correct through steering application and not just braking. Electric steering is, apparently, superior in anything but feel. That's good enough for most cars, but not for the 911.
My fear is that they are going to really neutralize the car and take its edge off in order to appeal to a broader market. The 911 is becoming more digital, less analogue, and that's a shame. I don't think we need more grip, more speed or safer handling than what's already offered by the 997.2, but I might be mistaken. We'll wait for the first reviews and know for certain. I already predict the tone these reviews will have - that the 991 is less exciting, but a better car overall than before. Just like the new, V8 F10 M5 compared to the outgoing V10 E60 (although there the culprit in the lack of excitement lies with the engine, not the handling).
My fear is that they are going to really neutralize the car and take its edge off in order to appeal to a broader market. The 911 is becoming more digital, less analogue, and that's a shame. I don't think we need more grip, more speed or safer handling than what's already offered by the 997.2, but I might be mistaken. We'll wait for the first reviews and know for certain. I already predict the tone these reviews will have - that the 991 is less exciting, but a better car overall than before. Just like the new, V8 F10 M5 compared to the outgoing V10 E60 (although there the culprit in the lack of excitement lies with the engine, not the handling).
10-08-2011, 06:42 PM
#64
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It is lighter, don't worry (around 40kg less, model-for-model, from what I've seen). But as for grip... it is already terrifically safe and capable. With more grip, you are nearly universally making the car more difficult to control at the limit (less progressive and predictable), and require more speed to get to those limits. Maybe I'm the minority, but I'd take an exploitable, progressive, predictable on-limit handling over outright grip any day. These cars are already way, way too capable to be fully utilized on public roads, making them grip harder would just make it worse.
The issue is that I'm essentially the minority, and most people who buy them for the badge or to be seen in one would probably prefer more grip and traction. So I guess that's what we'll get with the 991.
The issue is that I'm essentially the minority, and most people who buy them for the badge or to be seen in one would probably prefer more grip and traction. So I guess that's what we'll get with the 991.
10-11-2011, 12:16 AM
#65
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Okay let us all take a deep breath and relax a little. Porsche knows how important the 911 is to it's product line and brand identity and how loyal it's owners are to a true 911.
Roee,
Do you really believe that the 997.2 is such a pure 911 feel? The 991 has many changes but do you think the changes are so much greater than the changes from the 1960, 1970, 1980 911s to the 997.2 vs the changes from the 997.2 to the 991?
I for one remember the words you didn't lift in a corner with the older 911s. The 997.2 you can do anything you like and it really doesn't get unsettled. The very first 911 I drove / owned was a 1988 911 and I can tell you if you lifted in a corner or even worse decided to brake because you lost the courage you were going to get an education in 911 handling. How many remember the number of accidents 930 turbo owners had with their cars because they didn't understand how to drive them?
The handling of the 997 is miles different from the rear weight biased 911 sports car some of us grew up driving.
Cheers,
Roee,
Do you really believe that the 997.2 is such a pure 911 feel? The 991 has many changes but do you think the changes are so much greater than the changes from the 1960, 1970, 1980 911s to the 997.2 vs the changes from the 997.2 to the 991?
I for one remember the words you didn't lift in a corner with the older 911s. The 997.2 you can do anything you like and it really doesn't get unsettled. The very first 911 I drove / owned was a 1988 911 and I can tell you if you lifted in a corner or even worse decided to brake because you lost the courage you were going to get an education in 911 handling. How many remember the number of accidents 930 turbo owners had with their cars because they didn't understand how to drive them?
The handling of the 997 is miles different from the rear weight biased 911 sports car some of us grew up driving.
Cheers,
11-14-2011, 10:01 PM
#66
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In reading the various first drive reviews, there has been mixed reaction to Porsche adopting elecromechanical power steering for the 991. Thus far, I think Autocar's review might capture best how the new steering system feels relative to previous hydraulic setup:
A big surprise are the unfamiliarly subtle messages – or is the lack of them – being relayed back from the newly designed steering wheel. Over the years we’ve become accustomed to the joggling inherent in all 911s up until now. Anyone who has driven one will know what I mean. This inherent on centre movement of the steering wheel at the straight ahead, a measure of liveliness and feedback many consider part and parceled of the driving experience, has been eliminated entirely through the adoption of a new electro-mechanical steering system.
It is certainly a big change in character, making the car feel almost anaesthetized on first acquaintance – if only because it’s so unfamiliar to drive a 911 whose steering wheel does not constantly fidget, even at moderate speeds. But it seems the further you drive the more you come to appreciate the added calmness through the steering wheel.
A big surprise are the unfamiliarly subtle messages – or is the lack of them – being relayed back from the newly designed steering wheel. Over the years we’ve become accustomed to the joggling inherent in all 911s up until now. Anyone who has driven one will know what I mean. This inherent on centre movement of the steering wheel at the straight ahead, a measure of liveliness and feedback many consider part and parceled of the driving experience, has been eliminated entirely through the adoption of a new electro-mechanical steering system.
It is certainly a big change in character, making the car feel almost anaesthetized on first acquaintance – if only because it’s so unfamiliar to drive a 911 whose steering wheel does not constantly fidget, even at moderate speeds. But it seems the further you drive the more you come to appreciate the added calmness through the steering wheel.
11-14-2011, 10:27 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
Rohrl specifically mentioned using the system as part of the safety suite, allowing the vehicle to correct through steering application and not just braking. Electric steering is, apparently, superior in anything but feel. That's good enough for most cars, but not for the 911.
My fear is that they are going to really neutralize the car and take its edge off in order to appeal to a broader market. The 911 is becoming more digital, less analogue, and that's a shame. I don't think we need more grip, more speed or safer handling than what's already offered by the 997.2, but I might be mistaken. We'll wait for the first reviews and know for certain. I already predict the tone these reviews will have - that the 991 is less exciting, but a better car overall than before. Just like the new, V8 F10 M5 compared to the outgoing V10 E60 (although there the culprit in the lack of excitement lies with the engine, not the handling).
My fear is that they are going to really neutralize the car and take its edge off in order to appeal to a broader market. The 911 is becoming more digital, less analogue, and that's a shame. I don't think we need more grip, more speed or safer handling than what's already offered by the 997.2, but I might be mistaken. We'll wait for the first reviews and know for certain. I already predict the tone these reviews will have - that the 991 is less exciting, but a better car overall than before. Just like the new, V8 F10 M5 compared to the outgoing V10 E60 (although there the culprit in the lack of excitement lies with the engine, not the handling).
The mag reviews are out there and they confirm this. Many reviews are still warmly favorable, because magazines cannot bite their feeding hand... but the comments on suspension suppleness, cabin quietness, steering feel, handling are all there. The car is still fantastic, but different from the classic 911 design, but we all know new buyers won't tell the difference, heck many love GTRs
. The 997 already is less edgy... but the 991 leap is astronomical. Those with a technical background long knew that when they heard 100mm longer WB, 20" rims, electrically-assisted PS, auto start/shutoff, electrical e-brake, and so on.
11-15-2011, 03:54 AM
#68
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real reason for electric power steering
I don't don't the real reason for the switch to electric power steering is fuel economy. I think closer to the truth is complaints from drivers about the instability of the car, especially at high speeds, compared to cars like the R8.
For example, from Automobile Mag's excellent article:
Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz1dl56V1RL
For example, from Automobile Mag's excellent article:
Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz1dl56V1RL
11-15-2011, 10:26 AM
#69
Race Car
You guys may think that the 911 is moving towards the GT class, but that's where Porsche has always thought the 911 belonged. Its always been a gentleman's sports car, that's why they insist on having rear seats.
11-15-2011, 10:57 AM
#70
Race Director
I don't don't the real reason for the switch to electric power steering is fuel economy. I think closer to the truth is complaints from drivers about the instability of the car, especially at high speeds, compared to cars like the R8.
For example, from Automobile Mag's excellent article:
Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz1dl56V1RL
For example, from Automobile Mag's excellent article:
Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz1dl56V1RL
the steering in the both R8's are rubbish compared to the 997s. IMO of course. I personally like the feedback as i want to feel most of it. Its kinda the same reason i play forged blades vs fat cavity backed irons in golf. I guess it boils down to a drivers personal preference.
11-15-2011, 12:55 PM
#71
I think the automobile mag review was an excellent explanation. Couple that with the wide range of 911 variants Porsche always produces and I think you'll be able to find a 991 model that suits you. Maybe they'll offer variations in the steering depending on model.
11-15-2011, 03:31 PM
#72
Race Director
that automobile review was very good indeed.
Separately I wonder if P will offer any type of user selectable power steering boost? For example, pushing the Sport button reduces the boost (kinda like my 02 m5) and pushing the sport + button further reduces boost.
Separately I wonder if P will offer any type of user selectable power steering boost? For example, pushing the Sport button reduces the boost (kinda like my 02 m5) and pushing the sport + button further reduces boost.
11-17-2011, 04:40 PM
#73
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Some 991 drawings from the last PET..
You can see the power steering on the steering gear.
The column with the control units and the PDCC with the pump and the container.
All completely new parts.
You can see the power steering on the steering gear.
The column with the control units and the PDCC with the pump and the container.
All completely new parts.
