"911 has become the BMW 5 Series of sports cars"
12-19-2010, 09:16 PM
#31
Drifting
If Porsche does nothing to change the 911 you hear the chorus of negative comments about anachronistic styling, aging platform, lazy design (see JC on Top Gear), etc. If Porsche does make changes you hear the howls from the purists that they are straying from the historic ideal. When a car becomes iconic like the 911, everyone becomes hyper-critical, and Porsche are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
If the pics above are a close representation of the new 991 I'm not displeased. It appears they have walked a reasonable line between tradition and modernization, something they have to do to keep the model viable. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, the car will eventually be available in enough flavors that you will be able to own a high performance DD, a track monster, or something in between.
I've owned several iterations of 911 and this one is certainly readily identifiable as part of the line styling-wise, despite the tweaks. How it drives, of course is cruicial, but if I had to bet money it would be that they get that part right too.
If the pics above are a close representation of the new 991 I'm not displeased. It appears they have walked a reasonable line between tradition and modernization, something they have to do to keep the model viable. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, the car will eventually be available in enough flavors that you will be able to own a high performance DD, a track monster, or something in between.
I've owned several iterations of 911 and this one is certainly readily identifiable as part of the line styling-wise, despite the tweaks. How it drives, of course is cruicial, but if I had to bet money it would be that they get that part right too.
12-19-2010, 09:28 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
The feeling of a good mid-engine Boxster is terrific, but the feeling of an-all-in-te-rear 911 is special and perhaps not appreciated by all, which is just fine.
12-20-2010, 02:09 AM
#33
Has the 911 ever been a pure sports car? Hasn't it always been a uniquely designed 2+2 sports coupe? It may have grown in size quite substantially over the years, but it's always been larger, more powerful and better appointed than the "pure" sports cars of the day.
12-20-2010, 02:25 AM
#34
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Once upon a time the 911 was a GT car--a GRAND TOURING car. Now, it is QUITE the tour! Plush. But that's what the new 911 buyers want. That's why Porsche is building it. Many of you guys who were excited about the 911 growing up, really want that older car. But this is what they are making today. Not all of it is Porsche's fault. The EPA and DOT and E.U. dictate much of what we are seeing today. Someday all cars will look pretty much like well worn bars of soap.
12-20-2010, 06:44 AM
#35
Drifting
It's interesting that you appear to put down the 911. I love Boxsters and Caymans but the 911 is no less pure sports car at least in its current version when compared w/ same gen Boxster/Cayman. Try a lighter S (w/o Bose/Nav/electric seats) on a good track, or even better a GT3 or GT3 RS and report back.
12-20-2010, 07:44 AM
#36
Pro
I don't mean to put down the 911, it's a great car and has incredible performance and has been king of the hill for decades, and 997 is the culmination of that. The track packages are superb. But Porsche has made certain design choices on the 991 that are questionable from a performance standpoint (and not easily reversed for the track) but make absolutely perfect sense for the luxury performance segment.
Engines? Drivetrain? Chassis? Body? Suspension? Getting rid of the manual ebrake (guess only those folks rallying and drifting would care)?
(and FTFW btw...)
12-20-2010, 10:12 AM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Once upon a time the 911 was a GT car--a GRAND TOURING car. Now, it is QUITE the tour! Plush. But that's what the new 911 buyers want. That's why Porsche is building it. Many of you guys who were excited about the 911 growing up, really want that older car. But this is what they are making today. Not all of it is Porsche's fault. The EPA and DOT and E.U. dictate much of what we are seeing today. Someday all cars will look pretty much like well worn bars of soap.
Last edited by CWhaley; 12-20-2010 at 12:23 PM.
12-20-2010, 10:29 AM
#39
I think the engineers are happy to make a bigger 911. Marketing benefits aside, remember where the engine is in the 911. Audi never had the rear-engine engineering hurdle that plagues Porsche. Don't you think Porsche love to unleash their engineers on an affordable R8 killer? Except perhaps they can't, otherwise the Cayman would outperform the 911.
I'm no engineer, but sitting the engine on the rear wheels must affect looks (like how the rear seat headroom affected the looks of the Panamera), suspension geometry, engine size potential, positioning other parts for weight distribution, etc. Maybe a bigger Carrera not only suits the market but also lessons these restrictions.
I'm no engineer, but sitting the engine on the rear wheels must affect looks (like how the rear seat headroom affected the looks of the Panamera), suspension geometry, engine size potential, positioning other parts for weight distribution, etc. Maybe a bigger Carrera not only suits the market but also lessons these restrictions.
12-20-2010, 11:07 AM
#40
Drifting
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Fatter and Softer because of the U.S.A!
It is the mother-effing 2020 CAFE, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, requirements driving the dimensions of cars up. If a vehicle has a larger footprint then it does not need to get as high an average MPG! And it is literally the US calling the shots on this one.
It is the mother-effing 2020 CAFE, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, requirements driving the dimensions of cars up. If a vehicle has a larger footprint then it does not need to get as high an average MPG! And it is literally the US calling the shots on this one.
12-20-2010, 11:26 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
The last 911 is the one where you personally have drawn the line. Many say it was the 3.2 Carrera, others the 993...
In the end, it all depends on what makes you smile when you drive it.
In the end, it all depends on what makes you smile when you drive it.
12-20-2010, 12:24 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Porsche still sells ultimate sport cars if one decides to get one - GT3 RS, GT3 cups. what they do to 997 line and its successor just reflects their primary target audience - an older 65-ish years old chap who still wants to feel 'sporty' but needs all the cushions he can get.
reality is the simple fact that most mid-class 30-40 year old folks move to f-ing honda accords these days to maintain mortgage payments and still save at least something on savings accounts to avoid bankruptcy in case if primary source of income suddenly goes kaput. whole country goes to hell as a one big happy rollacoaster.
reality is the simple fact that most mid-class 30-40 year old folks move to f-ing honda accords these days to maintain mortgage payments and still save at least something on savings accounts to avoid bankruptcy in case if primary source of income suddenly goes kaput. whole country goes to hell as a one big happy rollacoaster.
12-20-2010, 01:19 PM
#43
Porsche still sells ultimate sport cars if one decides to get one - GT3 RS, GT3 cups. what they do to 997 line and its successor just reflects their primary target audience - an older 65-ish years old chap who still wants to feel 'sporty' but needs all the cushions he can get.
reality is the simple fact that most mid-class 30-40 year old folks move to f-ing honda accords these days to maintain mortgage payments and still save at least something on savings accounts to avoid bankruptcy in case if primary source of income suddenly goes kaput. whole country goes to hell as a one big happy rollacoaster.
reality is the simple fact that most mid-class 30-40 year old folks move to f-ing honda accords these days to maintain mortgage payments and still save at least something on savings accounts to avoid bankruptcy in case if primary source of income suddenly goes kaput. whole country goes to hell as a one big happy rollacoaster.
12-20-2010, 02:04 PM
#44
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Interesting to read everyone's responses.
I'm in my mid 30's and I'll be in the market for a new fun car next year. Yeah there are far fewer people my age that are into cars and it seems with every new generation the desire for fun sporty cars further declines.
Having said that I'm leanings towards a Boxster or a Miata at the moment. The Spyder is my preference as it embodies everything I would want in a pure sports car. Enough power (not too much), great handling, minimized excess and beautiful. Price and depreciation are the only two downsides. The Miata doesn't have quite enough power but more than makes up for it in the handling and shifting. It's not nearly as beautiful but for less than half the price and half the overall depreciation it remains a consideration.
I did consider the 911 briefly and it does have a few advantages including back seats for the kids and better resale over the long term but the reality is that my kids hardly ever go on drives with me and I really don't need the extra space. I haven't drive an modern 911 so I can't comment how its handling compares to a current Boxster but judging by what others here and elsewhere have said, the Boxster isn't as lively as the 911 but it is very connected to your inputs.
I think the Cayman is what the older 911 used to be and it's hard to argue that when you look at the overall dimensions of the car. Now if they would restyle the back so it looked nicer I think it would be a huge hit!
I'm in my mid 30's and I'll be in the market for a new fun car next year. Yeah there are far fewer people my age that are into cars and it seems with every new generation the desire for fun sporty cars further declines.
Having said that I'm leanings towards a Boxster or a Miata at the moment. The Spyder is my preference as it embodies everything I would want in a pure sports car. Enough power (not too much), great handling, minimized excess and beautiful. Price and depreciation are the only two downsides. The Miata doesn't have quite enough power but more than makes up for it in the handling and shifting. It's not nearly as beautiful but for less than half the price and half the overall depreciation it remains a consideration.
I did consider the 911 briefly and it does have a few advantages including back seats for the kids and better resale over the long term but the reality is that my kids hardly ever go on drives with me and I really don't need the extra space. I haven't drive an modern 911 so I can't comment how its handling compares to a current Boxster but judging by what others here and elsewhere have said, the Boxster isn't as lively as the 911 but it is very connected to your inputs.
I think the Cayman is what the older 911 used to be and it's hard to argue that when you look at the overall dimensions of the car. Now if they would restyle the back so it looked nicer I think it would be a huge hit!
12-20-2010, 02:33 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Curious to know/understand what are the design choices you are referring to on the 991 that might be questionable for a track oriented vehicle?
Engines? Drivetrain? Chassis? Body? Suspension? Getting rid of the manual ebrake (guess only those folks rallying and drifting would care)?
Engines? Drivetrain? Chassis? Body? Suspension? Getting rid of the manual ebrake (guess only those folks rallying and drifting would care)?
I think the engineers are happy to make a bigger 911. Marketing benefits aside, remember where the engine is in the 911. Audi never had the rear-engine engineering hurdle that plagues Porsche. Don't you think Porsche love to unleash their engineers on an affordable R8 killer? Except perhaps they can't, otherwise the Cayman would outperform the 911.
I'm no engineer, but sitting the engine on the rear wheels must affect looks (like how the rear seat headroom affected the looks of the Panamera), suspension geometry, engine size potential, positioning other parts for weight distribution, etc. Maybe a bigger Carrera not only suits the market but also lessons these restrictions.
I'm no engineer, but sitting the engine on the rear wheels must affect looks (like how the rear seat headroom affected the looks of the Panamera), suspension geometry, engine size potential, positioning other parts for weight distribution, etc. Maybe a bigger Carrera not only suits the market but also lessons these restrictions.