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Also @JRitt@essex - When switching pads between street & track, let’s say for example DS2500 & DS1.10, do you have to re-bed(burnish) the new (or reused) pads since you are changing compounds? Or are the compounds similar/close enough where the bedding in process is mostly done if the same pads have already been bed in once on the same rotors?
I can answer that one, no bedding in required when you switch as the compounds are similar. I went from DS1.11 to the 2500 and vice versa with no issue. Of course new out of the box pads do need to be bedded when installed.
I've used virtually ever pad out there over the many years I've been doing this, and gotta say, I love the 2500, 1.11, 3.12 progression that Ferodo offers. No need to overthink this one. Just go back and look at my threshold braking example on the 1.11 going into T7 at Sebring. If you can't do the same, its you and not the pad! LOL
I have discovered a bit of a flaw on the Road Kit, however. The calipers use a brake pad retaining pin and we've discovered is prone to failure on cars that swap out pads frequently. We've spotted cases of the pins partially backing out, and even completely falling out while on track. Also, when reinstalling old pins, some of them have been VERY difficult to reinstall and seat correctly. The compression sleeve on the end of the pin wears out over time and make them prone to shaking out on track, especially if you are taking curbs at 115mph. Bottom line, these pins should probably be considered a single use item and we've begun stocking up on spares so we can replace when needed.
Another data point on this, I have a McLaren 12C that uses AP calipers and pads as stock from the factory. When you buy new pads from McLaren, the box comes with new retaining pins. Clearly McLaren wants you to replace the pins when you change pads, so I am not the only one who has reached this opinion.
Still love the kit, but IMO it requires a little extra maintenance and care then previously known.
I've used virtually ever pad out there over the many years I've been doing this, and gotta say, I love the 2500, 1.11, 3.12 progression that Ferodo offers. No need to overthink this one. Just go back and look at my threshold braking example on the 1.11 going into T7 at Sebring. If you can't do the same, its you and not the pad! LOL
I have discovered a bit of a flaw on the Road Kit, however. The calipers use a brake pad retaining pin and we've discovered is prone to failure on cars that swap out pads frequently. We've spotted cases of the pins partially backing out, and even completely falling out while on track. Also, when reinstalling old pins, some of them have been VERY difficult to reinstall and seat correctly. The compression sleeve on the end of the pin wears out over time and make them prone to shaking out on track, especially if you are taking curbs at 115mph. Bottom line, these pins should probably be considered a single use item and we've begun stocking up on spares so we can replace when needed.
Another data point on this, I have a McLaren 12C that uses AP calipers and pads as stock from the factory. When you buy new pads from McLaren, the box comes with new retaining pins. Clearly McLaren wants you to replace the pins when you change pads, so I am not the only one who has reached this opinion.
Still love the kit, but IMO it requires a little extra maintenance and care then previously known.
This is a new issue that was just brought to our attention within the past couple weeks, and we haven't seen this with other Road Kit cusotmers in the past. That said, we do have extra pins on-hand at Essex in Charlotte, NC if anyone needs them at some point. As noted, Jakermc has some at his shop in FL as well if you need them. Another option with these pins would be to drill a tiny hole through them an safety wire/cotter pin them for added security. Again though, our Competition Kits are our recommended solution for people who are constantly swapping pads and tracking their cars heavily/constantly. The Road Kits were designed more for the casual track day enthusiast. Thanks for your continued support jakermc.
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
This is a new issue that was just brought to our attention within the past couple weeks, and we haven't seen this with other Road Kit cusotmers in the past. That said, we do have extra pins on-hand at Essex in Charlotte, NC if anyone needs them at some point. As noted, Jakermc has some at his shop in FL as well if you need them. Another option with these pins would be to drill a tiny hole through them an safety wire/cotter pin them for added security. Again though, our Competition Kits are our recommended solution for people who are constantly swapping pads and tracking their cars heavily/constantly. The Road Kits were designed more for the casual track day enthusiast. Thanks for your continued support jakermc.
I don't think it's possible to safety wire the pin, because the end of the pin that goes into the caliper does not extend out the other side. Ideally it would, and we would then put a cotter pin there to hold it.
On my car, our test mule, I did run safety wire through the ears of the pad and through the mounting pin holes in the caliper, and this worked well. Of course it does add a bit more effort to pad changes, negating some of the advantages of the quick change caliper.
I do want to say, the team at Essex took great care of me when we first identified the issue, which happened on track. They went above and beyond to rectify the issue and it's one of the many reasons I've chosen to partner with them on the AP Racing product. As mentioned earlier, it's not just the product that is important but also the level of service behind it. In this sport we all eventually run into an issue. Getting that issue resolved correctly and quickly is invaluable.
I don't think it's possible to safety wire the pin, because the end of the pin that goes into the caliper does not extend out the other side. Ideally it would, and we would then put a cotter pin there to hold it.
On my car, our test mule, I did run safety wire through the ears of the pad and through the mounting pin holes in the caliper, and this worked well. Of course it does add a bit more effort to pad changes, negating some of the advantages of the quick change caliper.
I do want to say, the team at Essex took great care of me when we first identified the issue, which happened on track. They went above and beyond to rectify the issue and it's one of the many reasons I've chosen to partner with them on the AP Racing product. As mentioned earlier, it's not just the product that is important but also the level of service behind it. In this sport we all eventually run into an issue. Getting that issue resolved correctly and quickly is invaluable.
This will be a bit tough to explain...I just looked at a caliper and believe it might be possible to wire it on the inside of the protruding ear in which you insert the pin, on the back side of the pad. There's a little step at the base of that ear that creates a little gap. Not a ton of room to work there, but I think it is possible. See pic below.
Thank you very much for the kind words. We appreciate it and will be here to support you and everyone else running our products. Thank you for your faith and confidence in us!
This will be a bit tough to explain...I just looked at a caliper and believe it might be possible to wire it on the inside of the protruding ear in which you insert the pin, on the back side of the pad. There's a little step at the base of that ear that creates a little gap. Not a ton of room to work there, but I think it is possible. See pic below.
Thank you very much for the kind words. We appreciate it and will be here to support you and everyone else running our products. Thank you for your faith and confidence in us!
This makes sense, yes! I may have to experiment with a couple of pins and try this.
The pin replacement has been common knowledge and accepted practice for track guys for years. It’s not a big deal. Its good track maintenance.
I have no dog in the fight. I am not paid by anyone and I don’t sell anything. I’m not in the industry at all. I’m just an enthusiast and track rat. I do not even get a discount on anything. I pay full price for everything. So I can speak my mind with zero bios.
Endless also have a 3 stage matching setup.
MX72, ME20, N35S.
Ferodo FM1000 (OEM Pad for Brembo) Is Very similar to DS2500.
Whilst many noobs (me included when i was a noob) have run FM1000/DS2500 and MX72 at the track, as soon as they get a little confidence the wear rate goes vertical on these 3.
ME20 in my opinion is still the unicorn pad that does it all well. Until you are highly skilled, it can withstand a beating at the track. The only reason I ever shifted from them was because my car became way more powerful, way more capable and I git far more experienced and faster.
The N35S truely is Endless at the track. Its the first pad I have ever run that I am not pitting because the pads have gone off. There is also a steep downhill straight into a hairpin at one of my tracks. You never feel like you are going to pull up in time. N35S is the first pad that says, we got this. *However such an epic track pad is harder on the rotors than ME20. At the end of the day, its a balancing act between pad longevity and rotor longevity and personal use. When you’re tracking more than streeting, you can out up with having to push the pedal a little harder on the first cold application, cause RaceCar. But if you are mainly street, ME20 will be far gentler on rotors and still give you an awesome track experience.
I haven’t tried 1.11 but I would think 3.12 would be more my style.
Currently still evaluating RE10. They are better first application on street. So more street friendly than N35S.
They are lasting forever. And they do seem friendlier on the rotors. So all good so far. But they are twice the price of everything else. So there’s that.
4 Point 0 ... what am I seeing in the top photo of your post showing the old Brembo caliper
and your AP Racing disc? Is that heat checking?
They were Brembo Type III rotors, and Brembo GTS calipers. A fresh set compared to the set i cooked.
Showing what colour they started out as black and cooked to pink
The type III rotors i can fully wear the face off them like in the pic and they still have not cracked.
This is what I have now after cooking the second set of front GTS calipers. It was only the fronts, as I run full traction control off always. The rear were perfectly fine both times.
A deeper annulus (swept area) thicker rotors amd more mass to dissipate the heat faster.
The theory of going with lower unsprung weight is debunked unless you are a race team. They have brake ducting constantly cooling the rotors and they replace them after every race
Us mere mortals without 3 dimensional wallets need something that will last a little longer.
Both the rotors above and these are 380. But the above ones couldn’t get rid of the heat fast enough.
So, you need to think twice about going for less unsprung mass. Unless you can afford to replace them and the Calipers far more frequently.
Also @JRitt@essex - When switching pads between street & track, let’s say for example DS2500 & DS1.10, do you have to re-bed(burnish) the new (or reused) pads since you are changing compounds? Or are the compounds similar/close enough where the bedding in process is mostly done if the same pads have already been bed in once on the same rotors?
The Ferodo pads all play nice together on the disc face since they're made from the same core materials. All you would need to do when going from the DS2500 tot he DS1.11 for example, would be to complete a few hard stops on the pads you just swapped into the calipers. They will get them seated on the disc face.
Mixing pad brands or compounds can get messy however. Materials are not always compatible, and when they are heated to track temps they melt together, glob up, and create high spots and judder. Here's a video I shot many years ago on how to manage pad swaps with differing pad materials:
07-15-2024, 01:35 PM
