snake eyes

Cup 2s or equivalent tires from another OEM.
you got the wrong tires one the car….
no alignment is going to save your tires

DR911s

I guess I'm driving my 2017 C2S too conservatively on track because I have at least 10 track days on my set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires and over 16k total miles and all of them still have about 6/32nds remaining tread and the wear patterns on all four positions are very even across the tread -- I measure each groove on each tire and multiple times around the circumference of each tire. [In an earlier life I was a tire R&D engineer at Goodyear.] I don't know what the suspension settings are. They are whatever the factory set or whatever the dealership set before I purchased the car as a CPO vehicle over 4 years ago. My setup is also a little different from most people because my car has RWD, and instead of the OEM wheels, I bought a full set of OZ Racing wheels and tires via Tire Rack for my fun driving which is more highways and back roads than track oriented. The OZ wheels are 9" x 20" front with 255/35ZR20 tires, and the rears are 11" x 20" with 305/30ZR20 tires. The tracks I have mainly driven on are Mid-Ohio and Grattan.

In contrast to my experience in my Porsche, on the same tracks in my 2011 Audi S4 on 8x18 wheels with 245/40ZR18 Pirelli and P4s tires and my 1993/1995 BMW M3 sedan with the same P4s tires, I have experienced chunking or more accurately, tearing out of tread elements, mostly on the front wheel positions. On the OEM Pirellis, I experienced tread separation on the left front during my first ever session with that car on Mid-Ohio when the tires and car had about 15k miles total on them. Fortunately for me, that tread stayed on the tire, although it was separated about half way across from the outside shoulder and about half way around the circumference of the tire. That Audi is hopelessly front end heavy and greatly overloads and overworks its front tires and brakes if they are OEM; I upgraded them to StopTech ST-60 calipers and larger rotors. The BMW had a full coil over suspension and minus 3+ degrees negative camber in the front positions; the wheels were OZ 8x17 with 235 section width tires... but chunking or tearing occurred at Mid-Ohio with almost new tires. The "solution" was to drive more conservatively, or have the new tires treads shaved to reduce their thickness. The longer the tread elements, the more heat buildup and the more squirm and tearing leverage on them. Also, I've learned that P4s tires will definitely pass through an optimum temperature range when track driving, and if pushed past that temperature, they will get "greasy" and the only effective "solution" is to back off a bit if you want to continue to run on the track, or just come in for them to rest and cool. I've run one hour track sessions at Mid-Ohio on them in my BMW and found there's a sweet spot in which I can run consistent lap times but if I push harder, the tires get greasy and my lap times soon increase.

Chunking or tearing of tire tread elements is much more likely with a new full-tread-depth street tire. Michelin molds the P4s to have slightly less tread thickness than touring type tires which helps, but not always enough. Cup 2s have less tread depth as molded, which greatly helps reduce tearing and chunking.

In the photos posted by assellus, one shows a tire that is definitely rolling over too much, which could be due to the amount of camber, and/or inflation pressure as well as suspension design [camber gain as cornering load increases]. I'm guessing that is a front tire; one that has been majorly worked [overworked]. The other photo posted by him shows a tire that is not rolling over nearly as much, and arguably may not be achieving maximum cornering power; I'm guessing that is a rear tire. Remember that too much heat can quickly destroy a tire, and track time produces much more heat in a tire than typical highway driving.

I agree that the P4s is not a true track tire, but in my experiences with that model tire on several different vehicles I have driven on tracks, It's a very good all around tire. I find it fun to see how long I can stay with or even catch and pass a few people who are on track tires in the top run group / instructors.

asellus

You lost me here, this is an absolutely bonkers number of miles for 6/32.

CT_Peter

As others have said, MP4S tires do not hold up to serious track use. They are amazingly sporty tires for street tires but, especially on OEM alignment, Michelin’s weird layered compound just falls apart. FWIW, I had the same issue with SC2s as well.

Nankang CR-S (for me!) have been drastically better for wear, measurably quicker than SC2s, and (weirdly!) as good or better than MP4S in the wet. That last part makes zero sense to me looking at the minimal tread, but I’ve been blown away. They also cost less than Michelin.

That said, please don’t buy them as availability is already constrained! 🤣

asellus

Better wet traction, faster lap times, lower price, harder wearing...

why is this the first I'm hearing of these tires? Usually objectively better performance, especially at a lower price, can overcome the Michelin fanboy fanaticism.

cbredesen

Do these come in the 20" sizes? TR lists the brand but shows no availability in the 245/305-20 sizes. Where'd you not get them so I can not go look at them and also not buy them because supply is constrained? They aren't even on the main Nankang site, which is odd. Maybe they're discontinued? The tread looks really cool but I have no idea how those could move water in any appreciable way!

CT_Peter

I think it's as simple as they're not too readily available and don't come in an infinite variety of sizes. Beyond that, I suspect there's some bias against them due to them being made in Taiwan. That said, there's a small but vocal group of people talking about them here on RL - which is how I found out about them.

As far as the wet performance goes, take it with a grain of salt as I don't daily the car and do try to avoid driving it in the rain (not because I think it will melt - just because I'm lazy and don't like washing cars). That said, I've driven it on the track in wet conditions (not standing water) and was just shocked at how well they stuck as compared to SC2s that (for me) seem to want to break lose if you drive past a billboard that has water on it. I assumed there was no way they could possibly handle any amount of standing water and then drove the car up to LRP in the crazy flooding we had here a couple of weeks ago. There was enough flooding that LRP couldn't open that day. Now, granted on this day, I'd just had brand new tires mounted, but they managed to deal with copious water (on public roads driven at conservative speeds) without any hint of hydroplaning. I don't get how that works given the tread pattern (or lack thereof) and still think MP4S would have to be better in truly heavy rain on the track. But for all that, and again for me, these tires far exceed my experiences after quite a few sets of Michelins.

CT_Peter

Phil's Tire Service (out of Long Island, NY I think). No affiliation with them but they've been fantastic to work with. Obviously nowhere near as big as TR but from my experience they treat their customers exceptionally well.

And yes, they are available in various 20" sizes. Nankang as already refreshed the compound for the CR-S for 2023 so that's a big part of the reason for the availability issues. Per my other post, I haven't had the 2023 version out on track yet but will in a week. (obligatory pitch for people to come out to Porsches at the Rock at LRP on Aug 5th!!!)

I can't justify why I think they are so good in the wet (it makes no sense at all with that tread pattern!!) and don't really expect or want anyone to believe something so ridiculous just from reading something random on the internet. I just know that for me, in my car, I am much happier in the wet with them than I ever was on MP4Ss and especially SC2s.

cbredesen

Very nice. Thanks for the reply! Wish I had more time for track weekends! Fingers crossed on OEM P-Zeros but I think I'll be back on Cup2s next year, or maybe Nankangs!

CT_Peter

Haven’t you read all the posts on RL? P-zeroes will make your car explode. 🤣

cbredesen

OEM brakes and rotors, too. I will literally slide off the track into the void!

asellus

real talk though, the pzeros are comparably bad tires. pirelli has not impressed me with their passenger car tires in a very, very long time.

sport bike tires, on the other hand..

cbredesen

The Scorpions on my wife's Explorer ST had that PNCS foam in it. Holy hell what a **** feature that is. The stuff gets dislodged from the inside of the tire and throws it out of balance. The Ford TSB says to dismount and remove the foam from all tires, at the customer's charge. ****ty tech, ****ty tire and ****ty dealer experience. Some dealers did better by their customers but not mine!

CT_Peter

I’m probably in the minority, but I have had good experience with the N0 Scorpions on my Macan since 2016. I run different tires on it in the winter, but the Scorpions have been absolutely fine on that car. I know others have absolutely hated them however.

cbredesen

The tires are actually good; it's the PNCS "feature" that is utter ****. All the marque forums (Ford, Tesla, others) which use them as OEM are filled with people complaining about un-balanceable tires which were ultimately caused by the PNCS foam letting go and becoming loose inside the mounted tire. Once removed they're fine actually; decent traction wet and dry and not horrible tread wear.