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This is great, but unfortunately, we probably will not know this for a number of years at least.
Well, I don't intend to put it on the charger every night, so at the very least you'll get a report on how it does "left alone"...
> Asellus: so yeah, I left the dash cam connected to the footwell ( I left in a hurry for a funeral abroad so I had other things on my mind like PCR tests) - the footwell cig lighter socket which *supposedly* turns itself off after 30 minutes... But apparently does not, or was prevented from doing so somehow, maybe by the USB adapter ? No idea, that is all I can think of. I came back to an "open" car, it self unlocked the frunk and doors at some point (under a cover thankfully) and was dead as a doornail. The key wouldn;t even come out of the ignition without the special tool! The battery took 48 hours to recharge properly but even then it lacked 200CCA and discharged faster than normal, where it needed Ctek every day to be full.
So clearly that battery is on me... but... prior to that, my 991.1 has always loved to suck at the teet of the Ctek since the day I got it... I've always peeked at the voltage on the dash before turning it on (or measured at the pigtails coming out of the frunk), and it was always low like 12.2-12.4V on the old Porsche battery, got better with new one, but back down to 12.4 again on the battery I just damaged by draining it too much. Mostly the loss of 25%+ of my CCA and a "bad battery" indication on the Solar tester was my cue to replace it. That and the 4th of july sale.
>Rich Jenkins: Nicely done, I need to do the same as you !
But doesn’t taking the weight away from the front trunk area shift the balance of the weight distribution even more biased to the rear? 😆
Technically yes, but not pound for pound. In fact, the biggest benefit in addition to losing physical weight, is it lowers your center of gravity. The battery was very wisely placed very close to the center of the car with a forward bias, but also in a relatively high position. By removing weight from this location only, you slightly increase rear bias, but you impact the lowering of your car's center of gravity by a much higher proportion. This lowering of the car's center of gravity is a huge benefit to the car's handling. The preceding was a long winded way of saying, "do the mod"!
I took advantage of the 4th of July sale and got a 40Amp hr 991 battery with the ctek charger. After breaking my back removing the 50lbs old one with barely 600cca left, I could lift this one with one finger (and it’s one of the heaviest with 40Amp hrs) and it’s got 1500cca!!
It fits fine though it is much smaller in length so you need to move the battery locking plate forward (there’s a hole for it). The metal strap doesn’t interfere despite the smaller size. I added the ctek pigtails and we’re in business. I got a low voltage warning in the car after the install despite 13.x measured at the posts prior to installing, but that was just after shipping. It’s on the charger for the night now...
35 lbs saved ! Emergency start remote in the door pocket. I like this new tech!
Hey Greg thanks for choosing us. A few things to state being I would like to answer you statement and other who might read this thead. Also I will go on answering a number of other statements or questions I see on this thread. So bear/bare with my sometimes lengthy comments. And always feel free to ask questions, we are a sponsor of Rennlist and here to educate on the pros and cons of lithium and be objective.
1- As Greg has said, the battery he got was shorter in length than his original, This is the H6 size he is using, and we also make the larger H7 and H8 sizes, but the H6 size is the most most compact version of the battery that is a drop-in fit for Porsches as the OEM size. How this works is that the H Series Group sizes in Lead/Acid Batteries Case sizing standards is that they are all the exact same height and width and vary only in length... But you can put any of these H Group Sizes in your Porsche being the 991 Battery Tray has a moveable cleat that accepts each size by moving the cleat. So they all fit. The H6 is most compact, H7 is 1.5" longer , and H8 is 1.5" long than H7. So they simply get progressively larger. For our Antigravity Lithium Battery the exterior Case size does not matter since we use exactly the same Lithium Battery Pack inside each case, for example, you are buying our Battery based on how many Amp Hours it has, not by the size of the exterior plastic case. But the H6 size is the most popular size and is the typical size used in most the 911 varients, with the H7 being the second most used case size. But again it doesn't matter which you choose but the H6 is more compact which give a little more room in the battery area, may save a few ounces, and is the most popular size used in European Cars.
2- When installing a new battery into a Porsche after taking out the older battery you will sometimes get a low voltage warning upon starting the car up again. This is not because the battery is actually low voltage, it is because the cars voltage went to zero when you take out the older battery, so the cars system logs it was in a low state of voltage (because it saw zero volts on the battery change out) and you have to drive around a little with the new battery, then turn the car off again after a little driving, take the key out... then just start it again and drive around and that flag should go away.
3- If Greg D, or anyone who buys are products is not fully satisfied, or has any issues or whatever you can return the battery for a full refund and paid shipping back to us within the first 2 months. No questions asked. Also if you not familiar with us we are in thousands of Porsches alone at this point in time, not to mention other brands. We started on Rennlist 3 years ago and in the GT3 threads you can find a lot of long threads with us in them discussing the technology and stuff about lithium. We were actually selling the first edditions of the batteries call the RS30 3 years ago here, and they are still going strong and you won't find posts about failures or such, and since then we have done several new technological upgrades to reach what is being put out now. But prior to our Automotive Batteries we had done Motorcycle and Powersport Batteries since 2010, and are the most used Lithium Battery in those segment and in Cars at this time. My point being we are not a new company in Lithium Batteries if you were not aware.
4- Another Factor you may want to be aware of is that the 991 actually has a very good Battery Management system in the car that will shut down all the Cars electronics very well and create a relatively low parasitic drain on a STOCK 991 without any aftermarket gadgets/accessories such as Camera, Radar detectors, USB plug-ins, or other items like aftermarket stereos and such. So be aware once you put devices like this on the car that they can create a much higher level of parasitic drain on any battery in the car. So be careful to connect them correctly or you will find no matter what battery you use these items will draw more energy and you will not have as long of storage time from any battery. If you connect some devices correctly they are then on fuses that manage the cars battery management well, you connect them wrong they will drain a battery faster. And last is that some items like Cameras are designed to stay on and record so can draw down a battery fast... so look out for things like that.
Last edited by Antigravity; 07-11-2021 at 04:33 PM.
Hey Greg thanks for choosing us. A few things to state being I would like to answer you statement and other who might read this thead. Also I will go on answering a number of other statements or questions I see on this thread. So bear/bare with my sometimes lengthy comments. And always feel free to ask questions, we are a sponsor of Rennlist and here to educated on the pros and cons of lithium and be objective.
1- As Greg has said, the battery he got was shorter in length than his original, This is the H6 size he is using, and we also make the larger H7 and H8 sizes, but the H6 size is the most most compact version of the battery that is a drop-in fit for Porsches as the OEM size. How this works is that the H Series Group sizes in Lead/Acid Batteries Case sizing standards is that they are all the exact same height and width and vary only in length... But you can put any of these H Group Sizes in your Porsche being the 991 Battery Tray has a moveable cleat that accepts each size by moving the cleat. So they all fit. The H6 is most compact, H7 is 1.5" longer , and H8 is 1.5" long than H7. So they simply get progressively larger. For our Antigravity Lithium Battery the exterior Case size does not matter since we use exactly the same Lithium Battery Pack inside each case, for example, you are buying our Battery based on how many Amp Hours it has, not by the size of the exterior plastic case. But the H6 size is the most popular size and is the typical size used in most the 911 varients, with the H7 being the second most used case size. But again it doesn't matter which you choose but the H6 is more compact which give a little more room in the battery area, may save a few ounces, and is the most popular size used in European Cars.
2- When installing a new battery into a Porsche after taking out the older battery you will sometimes get a low voltage warning upon starting the car up again. This is not because the battery is actually low voltage, it is because the cars voltage went to zero when you take out the older battery, so the cars system logs it was in a low state of voltage (because it saw zero volts on the battery change out) and you have to drive around a little with the new battery, then turn the car off again after a little driving, take the key out... then just start it again and drive around and that flag should go away.
3- If Greg D, or anyone who buys are products is not fully satisfied, or has any issues or whatever you can return the battery for a full refund and paid shipping back to us within the first 2 months. No questions asked. Also if you not familiar with us we are in thousands of Porsches alone at this point in time, not to mention other brands. We started on Rennlist 3 years ago and in the GT3 threads you can find a lot of long threads with us in them discussing the technology and stuff about lithium. We were actually selling the first edditions of the batteries call the RS30 3 years ago here, and they are still going strong and you won't find posts about failures or such, and since then we have done several new technological upgrades to reach what is being put out now. But prior to our Automotive Batteries we had done Motorcycle and Powersport Batteries since 2010, and are the most used Lithium Battery in those segment and in Cars at this time. My point being we are not a new company in Lithium Batteries if you were not aware.
4- Another Factor you may want to be aware of is that the 991 actually has a very good Battery Management system in the car that will shut down all the Cars electronics very well and create a relatively low parasitic drain on a STOCK 991 without any aftermarket gadgets/accessories such as Camera, Radar detectors, USB plug-ins, or other items like aftermarket stereos and such. So be aware once you put devices like this on the car that they can create a much higher level of parasitic drain on any battery in the car. So be careful to connect them correctly or you will find no matter what battery you use these items will draw more energy and you will not have as long of storage time from any battery. If you connect some devices correctly they are then on fuses that manage the cars battery management well, you connect them wrong they will drain a battery faster. And last is that some items like Cameras are designed to stay on and record so can draw down a battery fast... so look out for things like that.
Bad enough to where its recommended to keep a trickle charger on them and they have a built in emergency jump start! *runs*
But no, they should last about as long as a well cared for AGM -- that is, 5 to 10 years.
I was always under the impression that a Li battery should last longer than AGM. I am coming up on 7 yrs for the original Li ion battery they put in my M4 daily driver. BMW wants a little over $2K for an OEM replacement so I was planning on getting an Antigravity for this car. I am coming up on 6 yrs, however with my Porsche AGM and the weight savings alone would not make me want to switch. Porsche sits on a tender as it is a weekend driver. M4 has never been on a tender but gets driven almost daily.
I was always under the impression that a Li battery should last longer than AGM. I am coming up on 7 yrs for the original Li ion battery they put in my M4 daily driver. BMW wants a little over $2K for an OEM replacement so I was planning on getting an Antigravity for this car. I am coming up on 6 yrs, however with my Porsche AGM and the weight savings alone would not make me want to switch. Porsche sits on a tender as it is a weekend driver. M4 has never been on a tender but gets driven almost daily.
In lab conditions, yeah I believe a lithium battery has a longer functional life. Nothing groundbreaking, though, and for the price of four AGM batteries, I'll take the latter and buy some tires instead!
If you're seeing only 4 years from your AGM I'd honestly be shocked if you saw an appreciably longer life from the lithium, and certainly not a 2.5x longer life if we take price into consideration. I hope I'm wrong, but the cynic in me writes off the anecdotal evidence thus far of people seeing longer life from their battery as "that person just dropped four figures on a battery and is now actually caring for it this time" so.. yeah, my biases are clear here. There's definitely something to be said about the weight savings though, but that's a fairly subjective change in anything but the most hardcore of track duty.
With regards to the 14.3v charge, that's just how AGMs charge. Totally normal and nothing to be worried about -- there's a chart out there somewhere showing the relationship between temperature and charge+float voltage if you're interested.
At 40AH the lithium battery could easily be described as fragile when it comes to concerns about excess drain, which a lot of 991 owners seem to have problems with (I haven't had a single issue on mine, knock on wood). Overdraining a multicell lithium battery quite a bit worse than killing its flooded cell or AGM counterpart, what with the whole need to rebalance the cells in a lithium setup. Most manufacturers opt to just call the battery completely toasted, since half the time you can't revive a dead cell anyways -- ask the BMW lithium battery sitting on the floor in my garage I reckon this is the reason they push their customers so hard to buy the fancy trickle chargers.
Hi Asellus,
Thanks for bringing up your thoughts about lithium, it allows us to answer question other might have so that Lithium can be better understood being it is a newer technology. I want to clear up a few things you are stating that are important factors which should be considered. I'm a cynic also, so I have no problems with your thoughts on this. So I'll explain a few things, that are truly facts and I'm not just arguing smoke and mirrors.
4 years is the typical AGM life for a high quality lead/acid/AGM battery nowadays. That can vary by the heat/cold the battery is exposed to, if the battery was over discharged deeply, (which damages a lead/Acid battery), or if it is subjected to higher levels of vibration or shock. Another thing to mention is todays lead/acid manufacturers design built-in obsolescence to have a recurrent revenue stream since they don't want a battery lasting over 4 years. But, if we look at one of the more important aspects for the life of a any type of battery, the rated "Cycles" (a Cycle is the full discharge and recharge of a battery), then we find that a high quality lead acid battery is rated for 750 to 1000 cycles, and high quality Lifepo4 Lithium batteries are rated for 3000 to 5000 cycles, that is not my claim, that is just independent studies on Lithium cells in the industry. So all things being equal a Lithium battery should theoretically get about 3 times the lifespan if we consider only the performance of the battery based on the Cycles available from each battery. I personally don't trust the high-end numbers because they are done in a Lab under perfect conditions, but I do trust the general rated numbers and that high quality Lifpo4 Lithium Cells can deliver 3000 cycles. Being conservative that still puts a quality Lithium Battery at roughly at 2.5x the lifespan of Lead/Acid using this metric alone. But if you also consider the fact that our Battery Management System in the Battery does not allow the battery to ever be damaged by over-discharge, over-charge, short circuiting and other factors, then you see you can really get a much longer lifespan since the Lithium Battery has built-in protections from being damaged that can't be done with a lead acid battery. So those are basic facts that allow us to state that a Lithium battery will absolutely have a much longer lifespan than lead/acid by a significant margin.
As far are the price point concern as potentially outweighing the value of battery. That is a fair assessment, but there are some things you may not have incorporated into your opinion about value. First, as far as pricing, it is not inflated in terms of the actual cost of the battery from the materials and manufacturing perspective, that is a given cost, but lithium materials are higher than lead/Acid by quite a bit. Some people balk at Lithium because they think that any Car batteries should cost the same as a lead/acid Car battery, but that is not considering that fact that the material costs are higher and you get many more features and benefits beside just starting the Car. The other features that lead/acid can't compete against are a massive value to some and maybe not interesting to others. For example you won't find any products that will drop 35lbs just in 15 minutes of work, and that actually give you much better performance without spending thousands of dollars. Whether you choose Carbon Fiber dress up parts, Lightweight headers, or other components you won't really come close to a 35lbs weight loss for less than thousands of dollars. Then add the following aspects such as the fact that the Antigravity Lithium Battery can't be damaged ever by overdischarge, overcharge, short-circuiting, high vibrations, and it better at handling heat then that is very impressive. But now you can add that the Antigravity Battery will never leave you stranded by a dead battery again, you will never be locked out of your frunk with a dead battery, and if you wife or kids drive the car they don't need any special knowledge to jump start the car if they ever come back to a dead battery... simply press a keyfob start the car and drive away. Now these emergencies don't happen all the time, but they happen alot as you can see just doing a search on Rennlist for Batteries.
Anyway in no way am I saying that lead/Acid batteries are bad, or that our Antigravity Battery is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm just saying the value you get from the Antigravity Lithium Battery outweighs the initial buy-in by quite a bit over the lifespan of the battery "if" you desire or like those types of features that our battery offers.
If you're seeing only 4 years from your AGM I'd honestly be shocked if you saw an appreciably longer life from the lithium, and certainly not a 2.5x longer life if we take price into consideration. I hope I'm wrong, but the cynic in me writes off the anecdotal evidence thus far of people seeing longer life from their battery as "that person just dropped four figures on a battery and is now actually caring for it this time" so.. yeah, my biases are clear here. There's definitely something to be said about the weight savings though, but that's a fairly subjective change in anything but the most hardcore of track duty.
With regards to the 14.3v charge, that's just how AGMs charge. Totally normal and nothing to be worried about -- there's a chart out there somewhere showing the relationship between temperature and charge+float voltage if you're interested.
At 40AH the lithium battery could easily be described as fragile when it comes to concerns about excess drain, which a lot of 991 owners seem to have problems with (I haven't had a single issue on mine, knock on wood). Overdraining a multicell lithium battery quite a bit worse than killing its flooded cell or AGM counterpart, what with the whole need to rebalance the cells in a lithium setup. Most manufacturers opt to just call the battery completely toasted, since half the time you can't revive a dead cell anyways -- ask the BMW lithium battery sitting on the floor in my garage I reckon this is the reason they push their customers so hard to buy the fancy trickle chargers.
I agree and I am on 6.5 yrs with my OEM AGM battery on my 991.1 GTS.
We always recommend a maximum of "1C" Charging Rate for any Lithium Battery to be conservative and completely trouble free. 1C means you would charge at a maxium of 1 amp for every Amp Hour your lithium battery may have. For examples.... a 30Amp Hour Lithium Battery should be charged at a Maximum of 30Amps, a 40Amp Hour Lithium Battery at 40 Amps max.... and a Lithium Motorcycle battery that is say 6 Amp Hours should be charged at 6 Amps max.
But most todays Automotive Lithium Chargers are usually not offering higher amp charging and usually are in the 4 amp to 10 amp ranges. But even using a 10 Amp Charger you get exceptionally fast charging with a Lithium Batteries since our Antigravity Lithium battery is designed to accept a very fast charge and take in even lower amp chargers efficiently.
I was always under the impression that a Li battery should last longer than AGM. I am coming up on 7 yrs for the original Li ion battery they put in my M4 daily driver. BMW wants a little over $2K for an OEM replacement so I was planning on getting an Antigravity for this car. I am coming up on 6 yrs, however with my Porsche AGM and the weight savings alone would not make me want to switch. Porsche sits on a tender as it is a weekend driver. M4 has never been on a tender but gets driven almost daily.
We work with a company called European Auto Source who is a BMW specialist company who made a kit for the M4s to take our Lithium Battery, but I don't know if that applies only to the newer M4s or an older one like yours, I understand you car already has the Lithium Battery but BMWs Car BMS has some things that made it require their specific Lithium Battery which is twice the price of our Batteires so they made this kit to be able to use our battery to replace the M4s Battery. I'm not in the know on all the detail except they sell quite a few of these.. I can forward you their info if you email me at scott@antigravitybatteries.com
That is a great lifespan for your AGM on your Porsche.
Last edited by Antigravity; 07-11-2021 at 04:52 PM.
07-09-2021, 05:35 PM
I reckon this is the reason they push their customers so hard to buy the fancy trickle chargers.