Would you buy a "Punched" 991.2 Carrera as New?
11-03-2019, 08:35 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Would you buy a "Punched" 991.2 Carrera as New?
Not "punched" as in someone physically hit the car, but rather the dealer "punched out" (marked as sold) - meaning the warranty clock has already been running, and it has a few hundred miles on it. (See: https://blog.cargurus.com/2016/04/07...-little-secret). This car is being advertised and priced "as new". Apparently it has never been used a loaner or tracked, it has only been babied very carefully by the general manager 
It's a manual .2 base in a pretty desirable spec, but they don't seem to want to budge much more than ~10% discount from MSRP. The vehicle looks to be in good shape other than the brake calipers (not rotors) being covered in a mysterious white residue of some kind. Asking for a DME report.
Is this a pretty common practice? Are these red flags or nothing to worry about?
It's a manual .2 base in a pretty desirable spec, but they don't seem to want to budge much more than ~10% discount from MSRP. The vehicle looks to be in good shape other than the brake calipers (not rotors) being covered in a mysterious white residue of some kind. Asking for a DME report.
Is this a pretty common practice? Are these red flags or nothing to worry about?
11-03-2019, 08:41 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Not "punched" as in someone physically hit the car, but rather the dealer "punched out" (marked as sold) - meaning the warranty clock has already been running, and it has a few hundred miles on it. (See: https://blog.cargurus.com/2016/04/07...-little-secret). This car is being advertised and priced "as new". Apparently it has never been used a loaner or tracked, it has only been babied very carefully by the general manager
It's a manual .2 base in a pretty desirable spec, but they don't seem to want to budge much more than ~10% discount from MSRP. The vehicle looks to be in good shape other than the brake calipers (not rotors) being covered in a mysterious white residue of some kind. Asking for a DME report.
Is this a pretty common practice? Are these red flags or nothing to worry about?
It's a manual .2 base in a pretty desirable spec, but they don't seem to want to budge much more than ~10% discount from MSRP. The vehicle looks to be in good shape other than the brake calipers (not rotors) being covered in a mysterious white residue of some kind. Asking for a DME report.
Is this a pretty common practice? Are these red flags or nothing to worry about?
Flip side? If the DME report is good and there is no "extra paint" on the body, it's a 991.2 Carrera 7MT—which is one of the sweetest modern 911s imo.
11-03-2019, 08:43 PM
#3
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Tell them they need to CPO the car and discount closer to 20% and then you'll start writing checks.
11-03-2019, 08:49 PM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
@stout for sure, actually your write-ups on it here are one of the big reasons I got interested in chasing a new one down before the option of a new base Carrera with a manual is gone forever! 
it seems to have been punched a few months ago.
@LexVan it's been a weird conversation because they are insisting it's a "new" car and isn't eligible for CPO. I can't seem to get a clear answer from them as to whether that is technically accurate or if they mean "just like new". Surely if it's punched, it's technically and legally a used car? Or is there a gray area here?
it seems to have been punched a few months ago.@LexVan it's been a weird conversation because they are insisting it's a "new" car and isn't eligible for CPO. I can't seem to get a clear answer from them as to whether that is technically accurate or if they mean "just like new". Surely if it's punched, it's technically and legally a used car? Or is there a gray area here?
11-03-2019, 09:07 PM
#6
Find out what the "In Service Date Is" maybe used as a demo. Ask who it was registered too ?
20% discount maybe acquired pending on miles, but surely they should offer it CPO'd
20% discount maybe acquired pending on miles, but surely they should offer it CPO'd
11-03-2019, 09:25 PM
#7
Racer
Thread Starter
@mumbles - they swear it wasn't used as a demo but I'm not naive. There's even a suction cup marker on the windshield right where I would put a GoPro for a DE (or maybe more charitably, a radar detector).
They keep repeating it's a great deal for a new 911, but it doesn't sound like a great deal for a used car.
I'm guessing they figure "the right buyer" will come along so that they don't have to take a bath on the car. I just have to decide if I'm gonna be that guy!
They keep repeating it's a great deal for a new 911, but it doesn't sound like a great deal for a used car.
I'm guessing they figure "the right buyer" will come along so that they don't have to take a bath on the car. I just have to decide if I'm gonna be that guy!
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11-03-2019, 10:41 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
When dealerships are trying to hit their sales targets (which influences the next round of allocations), it certainly happens that they will report as "sold" cars that are sitting on the lot. This doesn't mean that they are registered (you can buy a car and never actually register it after all). That said, it's worth finding out if they put the miles on with dealer plates or if they did actually register it while "the GM was using it" as that will make it much easier to argue that, yes, it's used and they should CPO it. If it wasn't registered, it will likely be difficult to get them to CPO it, but conversely, they should be able to work with PCNA to fix the in service date to when you actually purchase it. They can't really have it both ways, IMO.
I've seen instances where the manufacturer (I haven't seen first hand PCNA do this) will specifically call and ask the sales manager to "punch" the inventory cars because the manufacture is trying to inflate their sales numbers for the quarter. I've further seen where the same manufacturer, has audited the dealership and massively dinged them for "fraudulently" claiming cars were sold when they weren't... even though they were the ones who asked it to be done.
Shockingly (sarcasm), the whole system is pretty stupid.
Keep in mind that they are also paying interest on this car that's sitting in their inventory for every month that they keep it. If you can find out when it was added to their inventory, that's another bit of ammo you can use when negotiating with them. As is the fact that it has the correct transmission in it. Sadly, I think the take rate on correct (manual) transmissions for 911s is only like 10%, so point out to them that they only have a 1 in 10 chance of the right buyer walking in to their store.
The flip side to all of this is... it's a 991.2 with a manual and it's pretty darn close to new. If it's spec'd the way you want, don't get too hung up on the % points of discount when you could be out enjoying it. I'm say this as the alternatives are truly used cars or a 992 (which, while nice, is just a completely different thing when it comes to that interior). Ensuring that it wasn't abused is certainly prudent though.
I've seen instances where the manufacturer (I haven't seen first hand PCNA do this) will specifically call and ask the sales manager to "punch" the inventory cars because the manufacture is trying to inflate their sales numbers for the quarter. I've further seen where the same manufacturer, has audited the dealership and massively dinged them for "fraudulently" claiming cars were sold when they weren't... even though they were the ones who asked it to be done.
Shockingly (sarcasm), the whole system is pretty stupid.
Keep in mind that they are also paying interest on this car that's sitting in their inventory for every month that they keep it. If you can find out when it was added to their inventory, that's another bit of ammo you can use when negotiating with them. As is the fact that it has the correct transmission in it. Sadly, I think the take rate on correct (manual) transmissions for 911s is only like 10%, so point out to them that they only have a 1 in 10 chance of the right buyer walking in to their store.
The flip side to all of this is... it's a 991.2 with a manual and it's pretty darn close to new. If it's spec'd the way you want, don't get too hung up on the % points of discount when you could be out enjoying it. I'm say this as the alternatives are truly used cars or a 992 (which, while nice, is just a completely different thing when it comes to that interior). Ensuring that it wasn't abused is certainly prudent though.
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11-03-2019, 10:42 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
OP- you are over thinking this. Do you like the car, and if you don't make a deal, are there others you can pursue?
I've seen a bunch of punched cars around, its their accounting gimmick to keep reporting good sales results. Not sure how they can fatally ruin a Carrera in a few hundred miles. It still has a long warranty.
These cars are not rare, but do a nationwide search on Autotrader on base MT Carreras. When you factor out the high mileage cars, there aren't too many to chose from. The base 991.2 is steal. Go on the Porsche Configurator and build a similar 992 and see if those numbers work for you. Good luck.
I've seen a bunch of punched cars around, its their accounting gimmick to keep reporting good sales results. Not sure how they can fatally ruin a Carrera in a few hundred miles. It still has a long warranty.
These cars are not rare, but do a nationwide search on Autotrader on base MT Carreras. When you factor out the high mileage cars, there aren't too many to chose from. The base 991.2 is steal. Go on the Porsche Configurator and build a similar 992 and see if those numbers work for you. Good luck.
11-03-2019, 11:47 PM
#11
When dealerships are trying to hit their sales targets (which influences the next round of allocations), it certainly happens that they will report as "sold" cars that are sitting on the lot. This doesn't mean that they are registered (you can buy a car and never actually register it after all). That said, it's worth finding out if they put the miles on with dealer plates or if they did actually register it while "the GM was using it" as that will make it much easier to argue that, yes, it's used and they should CPO it. If it wasn't registered, it will likely be difficult to get them to CPO it, but conversely, they should be able to work with PCNA to fix the in service date to when you actually purchase it. They can't really have it both ways, IMO.
I've seen instances where the manufacturer (I haven't seen first hand PCNA do this) will specifically call and ask the sales manager to "punch" the inventory cars because the manufacture is trying to inflate their sales numbers for the quarter. I've further seen where the same manufacturer, has audited the dealership and massively dinged them for "fraudulently" claiming cars were sold when they weren't... even though they were the ones who asked it to be done.
Shockingly (sarcasm), the whole system is pretty stupid.
Keep in mind that they are also paying interest on this car that's sitting in their inventory for every month that they keep it. If you can find out when it was added to their inventory, that's another bit of ammo you can use when negotiating with them. As is the fact that it has the correct transmission in it. Sadly, I think the take rate on correct (manual) transmissions for 911s is only like 10%, so point out to them that they only have a 1 in 10 chance of the right buyer walking in to their store.
The flip side to all of this is... it's a 991.2 with a manual and it's pretty darn close to new. If it's spec'd the way you want, don't get too hung up on the % points of discount when you could be out enjoying it. I'm say this as the alternatives are truly used cars or a 992 (which, while nice, is just a completely different thing when it comes to that interior). Ensuring that it wasn't abused is certainly prudent though.
I've seen instances where the manufacturer (I haven't seen first hand PCNA do this) will specifically call and ask the sales manager to "punch" the inventory cars because the manufacture is trying to inflate their sales numbers for the quarter. I've further seen where the same manufacturer, has audited the dealership and massively dinged them for "fraudulently" claiming cars were sold when they weren't... even though they were the ones who asked it to be done.
Shockingly (sarcasm), the whole system is pretty stupid.
Keep in mind that they are also paying interest on this car that's sitting in their inventory for every month that they keep it. If you can find out when it was added to their inventory, that's another bit of ammo you can use when negotiating with them. As is the fact that it has the correct transmission in it. Sadly, I think the take rate on correct (manual) transmissions for 911s is only like 10%, so point out to them that they only have a 1 in 10 chance of the right buyer walking in to their store.
The flip side to all of this is... it's a 991.2 with a manual and it's pretty darn close to new. If it's spec'd the way you want, don't get too hung up on the % points of discount when you could be out enjoying it. I'm say this as the alternatives are truly used cars or a 992 (which, while nice, is just a completely different thing when it comes to that interior). Ensuring that it wasn't abused is certainly prudent though.
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sr5959 (11-04-2019)
11-03-2019, 11:57 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
If the spec is desirable, I'd have a tough time passing it up. As long as the car hasn't been over-revved (per DME readout) or crashed/painted (per body shop), and so long as it drives/shifts nicely, I agree with PJ—who makes a good point about the base 991.2 7MT versus a 992 7MT, which is no base 992. Works out to $125k (skimping) or $140k (nice spec) for a 992 Carrera S 7MT.
Comps might be good to have as you work out the right price. And the comps I'd be looking at are Carrera and Carrera T 7MTs if they're still out there. While a few months less warranty wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, that and the miles are justification for a discount IMO, or a warranty extension or service package or? Perhaps this is a car to lease, then consider keeping if it proves to be a good one. I just hit 11,000 miles in my second 991.2, and it's been like my GT4: trouble-free, and just plain fabulous. I wouldn't mind driving this 911 for the next ten years…
Comps might be good to have as you work out the right price. And the comps I'd be looking at are Carrera and Carrera T 7MTs if they're still out there. While a few months less warranty wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, that and the miles are justification for a discount IMO, or a warranty extension or service package or? Perhaps this is a car to lease, then consider keeping if it proves to be a good one. I just hit 11,000 miles in my second 991.2, and it's been like my GT4: trouble-free, and just plain fabulous. I wouldn't mind driving this 911 for the next ten years…
Last edited by stout; 11-04-2019 at 12:34 AM.
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MJG911 (11-05-2019)
11-04-2019, 12:23 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
It is my understanding also that if a car was never registered with the DMV, then it is technically “new”. I once purchased a MB GL450 that was allegedly lightly used as the “manager’s car” which turned out to be a mechanical nightmare. I traded it in just after a year. 911s are pretty solid cars so I wouldn’t worry too much but I personally will never touch a demo/manager’s vehicle with a 6’ pole, even a M1 Abraham. If you’re in love with this car, make sure to score a major discount. JMHO
11-04-2019, 01:00 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Been there, well sort of, mine was my perfect build, had like 80 miles on it when I first saw it on a Saturday, then a couple come in and beat me to it and take it for a test drive, I like waiting for 40 minutes, figured they bought it and went home pissed. Monday my sales guy calls says it still there, now it’s got 110 miles. This car was a 12/16 build, sat in CO, until July when my dealer picked it up. I got 7+% off plus windows were tinted, planned to do it anyway. Not thrilled about the miles, but I confirmed the warranty was not punched. In the end I took it, as I was only getting 3% off a custom order from 3 of the local dealers I shopped, So to order the same car and have nobody touch it but me would have cost me about $5-6K, not worth it. Been loving it for a couple years now. If you like the spec and get the deal you like do it, well after a DME and I would get perhaps maintenance thrown in?
There are other used cars out there, right spec? Right miles? Etc, etc.
good luck
There are other used cars out there, right spec? Right miles? Etc, etc.
good luck
Last edited by titan7; 11-04-2019 at 11:46 PM.