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I was a data analyst by profession so A.) I love this stuff; and B). I've gleaned a few things sifting through a lot of track and straight-line acceleration times in fastestlaps.com. Of course you try to normalize for differences in PDK, Cup tires, weight, weather, driver and the data source (where known). For some reason the European magazines seen to post slower straight-line times generally (after converting kph/mph). I've found the most rigorous test methodology to be Car & Driver when they were publishing the .pdf of their hand-written 'Track Sheets' incl.weight-as-tested and wet-bulb/dry-bulb ambient temps..
But even after all that, there are still anomalies, a given car posting a faster-than-expected time at a given track. And human nature being what it is, we have a tendency (myself included) to cherry-pick the most impressive times for 'our car' and use these as the basis of comparison, at least in our heads, to all rivals. So a claim can rightfully be made, supported by (at least some selective) data, that 9xx.x is clearly objectively faster than should be expected for its power/weight, price, evolutionary step. Since these Pcars are all fast cars to begin with, broadly speaking, such claims can be made for any/all models. My reaction (hopefully) is not to be outraged or dismissive but to go back and re-sift the data.....
Having said that, my personal conclusion is that the 9A2 engine (in both B4 and B6 configurations) -- packaged together with .2 chassis (incl.tire) evolution -- tends to exceed expectations based on horsepower or 'just' a facelift/Mark II alone. This explains results like a 1:27:10 at https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs for the .2 CS, slightly ahead of .1 GT3 and Turbo S. Yes, I'm guilty of cherry-picking that one....
Last edited by ZuffenHouseRules; 08-21-2019 at 09:35 PM.
I was a data analyst by profession so A.) I love this stuff; and B). I've gleaned a few things sifting through a lot of track and straight-line acceleration times in fastestlaps.com. Of course you try to normalize for differences in PDK, Cup tires, weight, weather, driver and the data source (where known). For some reason the European magazines seen to post slower straight-line times generally (after converting kph/mph). I've found the most rigorous test methodology to be Car & Driver when they were publishing the .pdf of their hand-written 'Track Sheets' incl.weight-as-tested and wet-bulb/dry-bulb ambient temps..
But even after all that, there are still anomalies, a given car posting a faster-than-expected time at a given track. And human nature being what it is, we have a tendency (myself included) to cherry-pick the most impressive times for 'our car' and use these as the basis of comparison, at least in our heads, to all rivals. So a claim can rightfully be made, supported by (at least some selective) data, that 9xx.x is clearly objectively faster than should be expected for its power/weight, price, evolutionary step. Since these Pcars are all fast cars to begin with, broadly speaking, such claims can be made for any/all models. My reaction (hopefully) is not to be outraged or dismissive but to go back and re-sift the data.....
Having said that, my personal conclusion is that the 9A2 engine (in both B4 and B6 configurations) -- packaged together with .2 chassis (incl.tire) evolution -- tends to exceed expectations based on horsepower or 'just' a facelift/Mark II alone. This explains results like a 1:27:10 at https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs for the .2 CS, slightly ahead of .1 GT3 and Turbo S. Yes, I'm guilty of cherry-picking that one....
This is all true. Far too many variables.
My knowledge stems for hours and hours worth of seat time in the .2 (not as many in a .1) competing against several platform. Porsches always punch above their weight and from my experience the .2 does just that and some.
And the factory team was more than 2 seconds faster on the 'Ring' with the 991.2 GTS than the 991.1 Turbo S, while the new 992 Carrera S was 1 second faster than the 991.1 Turbo S.
Porsche is very good at tweaking newer models to go faster.
Here is a piece of my post in the 991 Technical info section on Porsche production car laps on the Nordschleife.
The 991.1 used the crappy previous generations Pirelli's... They were awful.
Interesting. So the 991.1 should be even closer, most likely, with equal tires.
The .2 is faster, no doubt, but based on data available, imo it's not such a "massive" leap. A relatively modest 3-4 MPH trap speed difference between the two (equal models) pretty much say it all. The 991.1 puts up considerably faster times than the 997.2 as well. Magazines that tested base 991.1's with PDK reported it was putting up faster times than the 997.2 GTS.
But then again, I'm not trolling around town lining up with Lambos and Civics, or doing 203 MPH on public roads, risking pink slips. If that's what it takes for someone to feel good about what they drive, then I'm far more content where I'm at. A car that never lines up to weave through traffic at insane speeds will always remain "undefeated."
Interesting. So the 991.1 should be even closer, most likely, with equal tires.
The .2 is faster, no doubt, but based on data available, imo it's not such a "massive" leap. A relatively modest 3-4 MPH trap speed difference between the two (equal models) pretty much say it all. The 991.1 puts up considerably faster times than the 997.2 as well. Magazines that tested base 991.1's with PDK reported it was putting up faster times than the 997.2 GTS.
But then again, I'm not trolling around town lining up with Lambos and Civics, or doing 203 MPH on public roads, risking pink slips. If that's what it takes for someone to feel good about what they drive, then I'm far more content where I'm at. A car that never lines up to weave through traffic at insane speeds will always remain "undefeated."
20 HP and more weight isn't a massive difference in performance. People talk about power "under the curve".... well, you control that by what gear you have the car in. The 2 have very different personalities but out of the box they aren't far in terms of all out performance in the real world. Also, the 991.1 gets better MPGs in the real world
On a shorter track with tight corners and hairpin turns the .2 will crush a .1. The torque and overall powerband is too strong in the .2 along with RWS if optioned.
On the 'ring, higher HP/low TQ cars don't suffer as much because these cars are typically sitting in prime powerband (higher RPM).
The .1 to .2 is not a step forward, it's a leap forward. This goes for all 911's in GT3, GT3RS, TT, TTS, and Carrera.
The .2 better crush a .1 performance-wise else what's the point of buying one?
Not all buyers focus on performance numbers, very few can attain the limits of either trim.
Use cases and preferences will decide.
If I were a professionally trained race driver and drove the Ring to work each day, I might have to put up with the farty turbo motor and get a .2.
Since the wife and I place a premium on sound and leisurely weekend drives, you won't pluck the .1 out of my incapable hands.
For the not-much-of-a-record, I turned an 11min lap at the Ring and I blame my bitchy better half for at least 2 of those 11 min. I also drove an E92 M3 and its glorious V8 finally made me buy one...
Make a thread about 991.2 performance being amazing, all the butthurt 991.1 fanbois try to defend their purchase.
Note I had a 991.1 S - I tracked it A LOT - it's a good car.
There is a reason people are paying 30-40k for an upgrade, again (upgrade to a 991.2)
Glad you're happy with your slower car, but its a slower car and was not the point of this post.
I can guarantee you, you have no chance keeping a 991.2 S insight with equal drivers on a track with 3+ Second gap time (track like laguna seca) .
Point of post is that 991.2 S driver can ""Beat" or keep up with a 991.1 GT3 or 991.1 Turbo S driver on the track. ( Something I know from first hand experience that a 991.1 S is not capable of doing. Unless the driver is not really trying).
Make a thread about 991.2 performance being amazing, all the butthurt 991.1 fanbois try to defend their purchase.
Note I had a 991.1 S - I tracked it A LOT - it's a good car.
There is a reason people are paying 30-40k for an upgrade, again (upgrade to a 991.2)
Glad you're happy with your slower car, but its a slower car and was not the point of this post.
I can guarantee you, you have no chance keeping a 991.2 S insight with equal drivers on a track with 3+ Second gap time (track like laguna seca) .
Point of post is that 991.2 S driver can ""Beat" or keep up with a 991.1 GT3 or 991.1 Turbo S driver on the track. ( Something I know from first hand experience that a 991.1 S is not capable of doing. Unless the driver is not really trying).
I don’t see why it’s taken that way. I think it’s impressive how close the .2 is to the .1 Turbo, as well impressive how extremely close (especially if tested with equal tires) the ring times between the .2 and .1 Carreras are. The Ring is generally cited as the end all be all as its multitudes of complex surfaces showcase a car in every field (not just subjecting it to courses that highlight its strengths) which is most accommodating to the real world.
Carreras are performance bargains within the 911 range. The 991.2 pushed that a bit further just as the 991.1 did from the 997.2.
Btw, from what I recall, the .1 and .2 differences on a short/tight track with equal drivers on some Euro magazine was roughly 1-1.5 seconds (again, .1 on inferior tires). I don’t track cars so not otherworldly to me. If getting every second out in competitive racing is imperative, then obviously it becomes more important.
Keep in mind that the 992 S’s ring time has a larger gap from the 991.2 S than the .2 did from the 991.1 S. The 992’s performance advantage from the 991.2 may prove to be more substantial than the 991 switchover. I would actually bet on the 992 S putting up a faster time than the 991.1 Turbo, perhaps? Not sure if that’s expecting too much.
08-21-2019, 09:18 PM
