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Is there much steering feel difference in a 4S vs. S

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Old 05-09-2019, 01:36 PM
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chekraze
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Default Is there much steering feel difference in a 4S vs. S

Am shopping for a 991.1 and I like a lot of aspects of the 4S however I wasn't totally happy with the steering sensations of my last AWD car ('15 S5). A Rennlister asked me to check out a local '15 C4 GTS he was buying and I drove it for about 8-10 min and on that short drive I thought the steering felt just fine but hardly a sample size to gauge much from. If any of you have had enough time in each to give me some feedback I'd appreciate it.
A salesman told me the 991 C4s steer pretty much the same as the RWD cars especially compared to the 997s and before.
Old 05-09-2019, 02:14 PM
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_BK
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I have driven both and can’t feel any significant difference in steering feel between a 991.1 CS versus C4S (or the C4 non-S that I drive regularly). I am far from an expert, so take my opinion with a grain of salt and drive them back to back yourself.

The AWD 911s are very heavily RWD biased. There’s a screen in the MFD gauge where you can see how much torque is going to the rear versus the front wheels, and it’s almost always 100% at the rear except when starting from a dead stop or if wheels are slipping. Even then, I can't think of a time I've seen the fronts get more than 50%, and only for a very brief period. I don't know about modern Audis, but the S5 of a few years ago was 60:40 rear:front by default, which would be an extreme case in the Porsche.

The front end of a C4 is heavier too, of course, but not so much that I can feel it, anyway.
Old 05-09-2019, 02:19 PM
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PacPaliPorsche
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IMHO, the 2S feels much more "dance-y" in the back - in a good way - than the 4S. The 4S always feels very, very "planted" to me - like the oft-used metaphor that you're riding on rails. It's unflappable. They are both fun, both amazing, but there is a "lightness" that I had in my 2S that I miss in the 4S. Having said all of that, taking a turn hard in the 4S and really pushing though the apex of the curve, I never, ever feel like the car will get out of control. I actually keep the screen on my dash as default in the mode that shows the torque split between front and back. It's totally fun to see how the car shifts the torque around.
Old 05-09-2019, 02:34 PM
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Aatish
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When I drove them back to back, the 4 felt a tad heavier than the 2.

I have a 2, can't really say it's a discernible difference. Both have great steering feel.
Old 05-09-2019, 10:37 PM
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I remember some reviews of the 991.1 where the reviewer said the 991.1 4S had sharper handling than the 2S. He put it down to the electronic steering being updated. I sold my 991.1 C2S and bought a 991.2 C4S. I don't notice much difference other than the RWS on the 4S. I will say that when I drove a 2S and 4S back to back in earlier generation 911's, especially the 996, the 4 felt much heavier in the front and you could really feel the weight imo. I think the 991's have enough power that the weight is not an issue unless you are at 9 10ths...
Old 05-09-2019, 10:48 PM
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titleistaddict87
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Agree. 4 in the 996 gen was very very diff imo from the C2. Weight and traction made it feel more stable and increased feedback. In the 991s the diff is almost imperceptible except for a little more weight up front.
Old 05-09-2019, 11:13 PM
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Default 997.2 Targa 4 vs 991.2 Targa 4s

Originally Posted by PacPaliPorsche
IMHO, the 2S feels much more "dance-y" in the back - in a good way - than the 4S. The 4S always feels very, very "planted" to me - like the oft-used metaphor that you're riding on rails. It's unflappable. They are both fun, both amazing, but there is a "lightness" that I had in my 2S that I miss in the 4S. Having said all of that, taking a turn hard in the 4S and really pushing though the apex of the curve, I never, ever feel like the car will get out of control. I actually keep the screen on my dash as default in the mode that shows the torque split between front and back. It's totally fun to see how the car shifts the torque around.
I never felt like either were even close to losing it in a hard turn. Both were /are well "planted". What do you want? Think about it. Something you almost can't lose it in a turn? Or, something you feel like you could? It was a no brainer for me. I drive MD country roads with tight 90 degree turns at speed and under power...this one is firmly "planted" as was the one before. I like that.
Old 05-09-2019, 11:29 PM
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ipse dixit
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Steering is heavier in the 1.2 4S.

Not sure if that's a good or bad thing; depends on how you like your steering feel and inputs (or lack thereof)
Old 05-09-2019, 11:52 PM
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Jack F
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After 1200 miles with max speeds up to 175kph, all I can say is that the 4GTS is very stable and planted. On the Nürburgring, the car really inspires confidence. The suspension is firm but also compliant. It’s a great overall package. If you went with the 4, you would not be disappointed. Now, if you like to drift the car around most turns like Chris Harris then just know the 4 can be drifted too. There is no bad choice.
Old 05-10-2019, 12:23 AM
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I am on my 6th AWD Porsche. I like the steering and don't feel any interference or numbness. I love the handling of the Porsche AWD cars.
Old 05-10-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by _BK
The AWD 911s are very heavily RWD biased. There’s a screen in the MFD gauge where you can see how much torque is going to the rear versus the front wheels, and it’s almost always 100% at the rear except when starting from a dead stop or if wheels are slipping..
Agree.

Coming over from Audi Quattro ..... I can really tell the Porsche AWD system is not Quattro.

The Porsche AWD system really allows you a bit more freedom to get the car out of wack but then it reels you back in.

In driving different 991.1's the biggest difference I can feel is when the car is equip with PDCC ..... love it.
Old 05-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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atm75
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The answer to your question will - especially for the 991 - be very much : “It depends on what MY you are looking at”. A sub-sequent answer for a used 991.1 will be that is also depends on the software/hardware/tire wear/chassis alignment status of the actual car you are considering/test driving.

A very good friend of mine used to run the vehicle dynamics dept for an OEM and he taught me almost everything I know about how the fundamentals. I’ve personally found his advice true but others might differ - please chime in. Here’s the breakdown & my2c

Chassis performance and feel are a result of a very delicate balance of many variables
The way a car feels is a result of a very delicate balance where seemingly small changes can yield a significant difference in both feel and actual performance. This is why racing teams spend endless hours tweaking tiny details well into a season and customize setups for each driver and track (if regulations allow). For modern cars like a 991, it's important to keep in mind that a new car’s base setup is a result of both software (electrically assisted steering, active dampers, rws etc) and hardware (linkarms, bushings, spring rates etc). Beyond this base "configuration setup" you have a number of key adjustment parameters such as tire pressure and alignment

For a used car, the wear of tires and the mileage of car (most modern production cars wear similarly over time, but a 20k miles car is different to a 60k car) are additional key parameters that have a significant impact.

All of this is important to keep in mind when you test drive two used cars back-to-back at a dealership as these factors combined will impact the way those particular cars feel at that particular time. Some of these parameters might be hard to check when you are buying a user car but try to do your best to ensure you make an informed decision that works for you.

Before signing, I would recommend asking the dealer to check the alignment on the car. If the alignment on a car is out of wack, your judgment will be as well. Next, check tires for wear (ideally normal status, neither brand new or shot) and that tire pressure is setup for driving (avoid the high pressure many dealers put into their cars for storage reasons and to limit their liability). Maybe it goes without saying but try to avoid test drives in extreme temperatures, especially cold, as performance tires are useless below 45-50F.

Technical status varies over the course of production
OEMs iterate on their products over the course of a production cycle (typically 7 years). Based on things they weren’t fully happy with when they needed to freeze the production specs, based on reliability data from the field and based on both media and customer feedback, they will make all kinds of improvements that they push out into production in 3-4 update windows per year. A MY change is typically one of those windows but most manufacturers have 2-3 additional windows for smaller changes, giving them an opportunity to move faster and also upgrade quality issues without the attention a MY change typically gets.

Relatively, AWD always numbs steering feel - at least somewhat
The fact that AWD adds torque to the front wheels physically results in steering wheel forces that will make the steering feel less clean than a RWD setup. OEMs are aware of that and with software they minimize the impact but it’s fundamentally a less pure setup. This is why good car journalists will usually pick up that a car that’s typically AWD, has a better steering feel in a RWD version (eg. Audi R8 RWS). With 991 911s this factor gets further convoluted by the fact that the wider body cars have a wider rear track and tires, which has an impact on how a car steers into the corner. However, with everything else being equal : AWD = less pure, which doesn't mean bad - just that it's less pure but with additional, for some very significant, benefits that 2wd doesn't give you.

Your actual 991 S vs 4S question
I would argue that all of these three themes come into play when it comes to your specific question.

It’s pretty clear that Porsche got a ton of negative feedback on both the steering feel and the manual gearbox feel from both the media and customers when the 991.1 2wd came out. Given that they pride themselves in those areas, it’s fair to assume that there were task forces being assembled to address these issues and work on improvements. This is purely speculative on my end but I suspect that Porsche was already working on improving the steering feel when the 2wd hit production, and it’s thus likely that they poured a number of improvements into the 4S for its launch, leading to somewhat puzzled media reports on that the 4S has better steering feel (Henry Catchpole’s great 4S review in an wintery Austria being one of them).

Important context is that the 991 plays a special role in Porsche's history being an all-new platform with an all-new electrically assisted steering setup. The pretty big improvements in the chassis space are thus a fairly natural outcome of engineering teams learning their new hw platform and how to best tweak the software over the span of time, leading to improvements that are perhaps unusually large for a company that is typically know for perfection/gradual improvement of a well tested formula (997, 992).

You can see the “evidence” of this through the increasingly more positive reports throughout the 991s lifecycle. Steering feel improved 2S to 4S, then again in GTS (as did manual shifter) and then again in 991.2 launch. As Porsche obviously was working hard on addressing clear and fair criticism, it’s also likely that a number of these improvements weren’t waiting for versions such as the GTS and some might have even been made between MYs. Porsche for instance announced that the improvements they did to the manual version of the 991.1 GTS also went into production for non-GTS models. Last but not least, Porsche is also very advanced in their modular thinking so they can easily move many components between cars - one example that is that the awesome short gear shifter for GT4/911T/GT3T gearboxes fitted my GTS perfectly and has totally transformed what was an already good shifting experience. Best $350 I've spent in a long time.

The fact that the cars changed quite a lot over the lifecycle is likely one of the reasons behind some pretty confused/agitated/entertaining debates here on rennlist as people can swear that one version drives/feels better than the other. I suspect that many are actually right (even the conflicting conclusions) and that the true issue lies in that they are not really comparing apples to apples from a technical status point of view - and let parameters like alignment, tire pressure, wear, temperature and the car's milage further dilute the well-intended objectivity of their comparisons.

In a nutshell...
If steering feel is important to you, I would advise to : stay away from the earliest MYs, go for an S or a 2wd GTS, make sure your car has the latest SW upgrades, make sure it has a proper alignment and decent tires.

I advise against the earliest MY only because I suspect it will be hard to track down what upgrades can be done to a MY12.3 or 13 to make them as good as a 15-16. You might be super lucky in finding that the upgrades were only software based, but after a chat with my friend I’m personally leaning towards that the continuous and significant upgrades over the 991s life, were a mix of SW and HW tweaks.

Last but not least. It’s your own gut feel and definition of “steering feel” that ultimately matters. Like some rennlisters already have mentioned, a 4S will by default feel more planted, a 2S more lively (especially if it’s on the “narrow” tires) so whatever works best for you, works best for you.

There are really no bad choices here - we're all blessed/spoiled with being able to enjoy these fantastic cars

Last edited by atm75; 05-10-2019 at 12:04 PM.
Old 05-10-2019, 11:51 AM
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my 14 c4s felt heavier to me than my 18 C2. to me, it is noticeable. the 2 feels more agile.

the rwd car will get away from you far easier than the 4, but i like it. the 4 just dug and clawed for grip. launch control in the 4 is amazing.
Old 05-10-2019, 02:12 PM
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The 2WD feels slightly more athletic and tossable than the 4WD. That's not to say the 4S has bad steering.
Old 05-10-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by atm75
The answer to your question will - especially for the 991 - be very much : “It depends on what MY you are looking at”. A sub-sequent answer for a used 991.1 will be that is also depends on the software/hardware/tire wear/chassis alignment status of the actual car you are considering/test driving.

A very good friend of mine used to run the vehicle dynamics dept for an OEM and he taught me almost everything I know about how the fundamentals. I’ve personally found his advice true but others might differ - please chime in. Here’s the breakdown & my2c

Chassis performance and feel are a result of a very delicate balance of many variables
The way a car feels is a result of a very delicate balance where seemingly small changes can yield a significant difference in both feel and actual performance. This is why racing teams spend endless hours tweaking tiny details well into a season and customize setups for each driver and track (if regulations allow). For modern cars like a 991, it's important to keep in mind that a new car’s base setup is a result of both software (electrically assisted steering, active dampers, rws etc) and hardware (linkarms, bushings, spring rates etc). Beyond this base "configuration setup" you have a number of key adjustment parameters such as tire pressure and alignment

For a used car, the wear of tires and the mileage of car (most modern production cars wear similarly over time, but a 20k miles car is different to a 60k car) are additional key parameters that have a significant impact.

All of this is important to keep in mind when you test drive two used cars back-to-back at a dealership as these factors combined will impact the way those particular cars feel at that particular time. Some of these parameters might be hard to check when you are buying a user car but try to do your best to ensure you make an informed decision that works for you.

Before signing, I would recommend asking the dealer to check the alignment on the car. If the alignment on a car is out of wack, your judgment will be as well. Next, check tires for wear (ideally normal status, neither brand new or shot) and that tire pressure is setup for driving (avoid the high pressure many dealers put into their cars for storage reasons and to limit their liability). Maybe it goes without saying but try to avoid test drives in extreme temperatures, especially cold, as performance tires are useless below 45-50F.

Technical status varies over the course of production
OEMs iterate on their products over the course of a production cycle (typically 7 years). Based on things they weren’t fully happy with when they needed to freeze the production specs, based on reliability data from the field and based on both media and customer feedback, they will make all kinds of improvements that they push out into production in 3-4 update windows per year. A MY change is typically one of those windows but most manufacturers have 2-3 additional windows for smaller changes, giving them an opportunity to move faster and also upgrade quality issues without the attention a MY change typically gets.

Relatively, AWD always numbs steering feel - at least somewhat
The fact that AWD adds torque to the front wheels physically results in steering wheel forces that will make the steering feel less clean than a RWD setup. OEMs are aware of that and with software they minimize the impact but it’s fundamentally a less pure setup. This is why good car journalists will usually pick up that a car that’s typically AWD, has a better steering feel in a RWD version (eg. Audi R8 RWS). With 991 911s this factor gets further convoluted by the fact that the wider body cars have a wider rear track and tires, which has an impact on how a car steers into the corner. However, with everything else being equal : AWD = less pure, which doesn't mean bad - just that it's less pure but with additional, for some very significant, benefits that 2wd doesn't give you.

Your actual 991 S vs 4S question
I would argue that all of these three themes come into play when it comes to your specific question.

It’s pretty clear that Porsche got a ton of negative feedback on both the steering feel and the manual gearbox feel from both the media and customers when the 991.1 2wd came out. Given that they pride themselves in those areas, it’s fair to assume that there were task forces being assembled to address these issues and work on improvements. This is purely speculative on my end but I suspect that Porsche was already working on improving the steering feel when the 2wd hit production, and it’s thus likely that they poured a number of improvements into the 4S for its launch, leading to somewhat puzzled media reports on that the 4S has better steering feel (Henry Catchpole’s great 4S review in an wintery Austria being one of them).

Important context is that the 991 plays a special role in Porsche's history being an all-new platform with an all-new electrically assisted steering setup. The pretty big improvements in the chassis space are thus a fairly natural outcome of engineering teams learning their new hw platform and how to best tweak the software over the span of time, leading to improvements that are perhaps unusually large for a company that is typically know for perfection/gradual improvement of a well tested formula (997, 992).

You can see the “evidence” of this through the increasingly more positive reports throughout the 991s lifecycle. Steering feel improved 2S to 4S, then again in GTS (as did manual shifter) and then again in 991.2 launch. As Porsche obviously was working hard on addressing clear and fair criticism, it’s also likely that a number of these improvements weren’t waiting for versions such as the GTS and some might have even been made between MYs. Porsche for instance announced that the improvements they did to the manual version of the 991.1 GTS also went into production for non-GTS models. Last but not least, Porsche is also very advanced in their modular thinking so they can easily move many components between cars - one example that is that the awesome short gear shifter for GT4/911T/GT3T gearboxes fitted my GTS perfectly and has totally transformed what was an already good shifting experience. Best $350 I've spent in a long time.

The fact that the cars changed quite a lot over the lifecycle is likely one of the reasons behind some pretty confused/agitated/entertaining debates here on rennlist as people can swear that one version drives/feels better than the other. I suspect that many are actually right (even the conflicting conclusions) and that the true issue lies in that they are not really comparing apples to apples from a technical status point of view - and let parameters like alignment, tire pressure, wear, temperature and the car's milage further dilute the well-intended objectivity of their comparisons.

In a nutshell...
If steering feel is important to you, I would advise to : stay away from the earliest MYs, go for an S or a 2wd GTS, make sure your car has the latest SW upgrades, make sure it has a proper alignment and decent tires.

I advise against the earliest MY only because I suspect it will be hard to track down what upgrades can be done to a MY12.3 or 13 to make them as good as a 15-16. You might be super lucky in finding that the upgrades were only software based, but after a chat with my friend I’m personally leaning towards that the continuous and significant upgrades over the 991s life, were a mix of SW and HW tweaks.

Last but not least. It’s your own gut feel and definition of “steering feel” that ultimately matters. Like some rennlisters already have mentioned, a 4S will by default feel more planted, a 2S more lively (especially if it’s on the “narrow” tires) so whatever works best for you, works best for you.

There are really no bad choices here - we're all blessed/spoiled with being able to enjoy these fantastic cars
Awesome summary and information you share here. I bought a .1s and first thing I did was took it to a good shop that does my track car's alignment. The thing was out a bit from spec but the additional camber, fresh tires and less air in them made a huge difference in the feel of the car to me. Some never push enough to notice, or just have aligned to factory specs and I'm sure they still enjoy their car, but the small things you mentioned make huge differences. Often just fresh tires make the car feel completely different. The same exact tires, new vs a 4 year old set with 50% will make a car feel night and day.

As for the steering, I picked a 2s over 4s because it weighs less with the same power. Also when I took out the front drive in my 996turbo the steering became awesome by comparison. I know the newer stuff probably has less difference, but there has to be some degradation just from the extra weight over the front wheels.


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