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Tial Sport Performance Upgrades and Preliminary Results

 
Old 04-15-2019, 06:59 PM
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TXGold
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Default Tial Sport Performance Upgrades and Preliminary Results

I upgraded to the Tial M660 Turbos, the Tial Intercoolers, BMC Filter and the Tial Plenum.





Everything installed very easily. The intercoolers come with a bracket to bond into the stock intercooler assembly. They are so thick more room was needed, and I was told it was a very thoughtful solution over what others have done and that is just hacking away. The intercoolers have a pad for a port to be tapped for the Methanol which is very thoughtful. We are experimenting with venting the blow off valves to atmosphere so it makes cool noises more. The turbos have a beautiful new compressor wheel and don't see any way possible to make it larger. It is a Xona Rotor compressor and is 61mm at the widest point. The turbine housings are way too small on these stock frames, and there is a new turbine wheel added. There is also a new cartridge and journal bearing supplied.





My previous best 60-130 was a 7.40, which held the record for the Carrera. Others were faster(7.24) but not on a valid slope(-2.75%) AND had upgraded turbos. This 7.40 was with a Protomotive Tune, Catless Pipes, and AEM Meth Injection System.


My car has been down for 2.5 months until last week. The install took very little time and most of the time was with tuning. My car stayed strapped to the dyno for a long time and I'm told has had over a hundred pulls and 200+ miles put on it. Since it had been down so long, I was dying to drive it some in this nice weather we have been having so Driver Source buttoned it up and let me have it for a week. It goes back in tomorrow to continue. We made 40whp by alone adding the Tial parts above and without tuning, using the same tune for the 7.40 run. The way the new ECU is tuned at the factory is complicated. There are adaptive timing tables, the waste gates are controlled the opposite of the way most if not all Porsches have been tuned before, there are hidden torque limits everywhere, the waste gate duty cycle is misleading, etc. This is all just from what I have gathered along the way. Both Todd at Protomotive and Steve Ott at Driver Source have spent a lot of time on this tune and trying to fix things. Jonathan at Aviva/Mimo/Tial, who designed these turbos has been very very helpful too. There are several helping behind the scenes. We are not done yet, so stay tuned for the final results.

This was done today with a DA of about 250'. 75*, 36% humidity and 30.06".
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:15 PM
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LargePuppy
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Looks good! Curious to see final perf numbers and estimated cost
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:27 PM
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This is a complete animal! What does a stock turbo s do?
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:43 PM
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Yeeet!

Those early numbers look very nice!

Look forward to full dialed in data.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:08 PM
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Awesome! Good to see the start of what upgraded turbos can do.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turb...s-stage-i.html
Seems a 991.2 Turbo with 540hp stock, with a tune (going from 524hp dyno to 672hp dyno) did a 6.47s 60-130mph.

Seems a stock 991.2 Turbo S (580hp crank) can do 60-130 in around 7.6.

So..... uh.... you're maybe around 640hp crank?

If the wheels are 61mm compressor exducer, going off the Xona 76mm compressor wheel which flows 61lbs/min, seems the 61mm comp in these turbos would flow about 40lbs/min on the compressor side.
http://www.xonarotor.com/products/xr...ers/164-xr6156
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:13 PM
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TXGold
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Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Awesome! Good to see the start of what upgraded turbos can do.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turb...s-stage-i.html
Seems a 991.2 Turbo with 540hp stock, with a tune (going from 524hp dyno to 672hp dyno) did a 6.47s 60-130mph.

Seems a stock 991.2 Turbo S (580hp crank) can do 60-130 in around 7.6.

So..... uh.... you're maybe around 640hp crank?

If the wheels are 61mm compressor exducer, going off the Xona 76mm compressor wheel which flows 61lbs/min, seems the 61mm comp in these turbos would flow about 40lbs/min on the compressor side.
http://www.xonarotor.com/products/xr...ers/164-xr6156
I hope they can do 40lbs, but I don't know. I was told its less, but then given a conservative number. I don't see the compressor wheel being able to take full advantage on account the turbine housing is miniscule. We need a larger AR turbine housing option for these same turbos. I am told these turbos are capable of 700whp so maybe they can flow near 40lbs(x9 for race fuel equals 720whp). I hope so but we aren't seeing the numbers we want yet. Coincidentally using your math from a previous discussion about the GTS estimated flow rate, I figured around 40lbs my self.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TXGold View Post
I hope they can do 40lbs, but I don't know. I was told its less, but then given a conservative number. I don't see the compressor wheel being able to take full advantage on account the turbine housing is miniscule. We need a larger AR turbine housing option for these same turbos. I am told these turbos are capable of 700whp so maybe they can flow near 40lbs(x9 for race fuel equals 720whp). I hope so but we aren't seeing the numbers we want yet. Coincidentally using your math from a previous discussion about the GTS estimated flow rate, I figured around 40lbs my self.
Hmmm. I didn't take into account the smaller compressor housings of the stock turbos (vs. the Xona turbos) which will limit peak flow. 700whp seems about right for race gas. Not only are the turbine housings small, but the turbine wheel selected has 12 blades. For reference, the Garrett high flow turbine wheels in similar sizes only have 9 blades. If you're not seeing the numbers yet, you know I'm going to recommend headers and you know which ones I believe will make the most power
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:17 PM
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Great job TX and thanks for the true results !!! Planning on doing some runs tomorrow morning...
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:13 PM
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Any idea of the power it has put down on the dyno so far?
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:20 PM
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Sweet. Great build.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cosmo1 View Post
Great job TX and thanks for the true results !!! Planning on doing some runs tomorrow morning...
Excited to see what your car can do!
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:53 PM
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I managed a 7.55 a few days ago.. It's actually on Dragy..
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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Wow finally some results! Thanks for sharing! Looks like tuning is the real bitch here, after that we just need to bolt some real turbos up huh?

Thank you again for attempting to blaze a path!
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:31 PM
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TXGold
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I am told some have spent over a thousand hours on their tunes while the car is on a dyno, others still have there cars being tuned currently and is taking as long or longer, others like me have just returned to the tuner to get better tuning. It is extrondary how much time Driver Source and Protomotive and team are spending to refine the tune. The curve looks nice but there is something holding back everything. The torque is limited flat for some reason, likely a torque limit, the car is not pulling timing but boost request is not being met, yet wastegate duty is low. It is a $hit show to figure out. They have my car for another two weeks as of yesterday and really hope that the hardware is not the issue and the software can be sorted out. We started off having 5 tunes to try right of the bat, hopefully one of them gives an answer to what the correct path to head down is. Long way to go still. This time should be in the high 5's for 60-130 but at least Protomotive was first in the 6's.

The thing needed to make the turbos I have real turbos, is a larger AR turbine, and not like the GTS but I mean large. Going to a Xona or A28 would open up a nightmare with wastegate and tuning, let alone the typical plumbing challenges of this type of turbo upgrade.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TXGold View Post
I am told some have spent over a thousand hours on their tunes while the car is on a dyno, others still have there cars being tuned currently and is taking as long or longer, others like me have just returned to the tuner to get better tuning. It is extrondary how much time Driver Source and Protomotive and team are spending to refine the tune. The curve looks nice but there is something holding back everything. The torque is limited flat for some reason, likely a torque limit, the car is not pulling timing but boost request is not being met, yet wastegate duty is low. It is a $hit show to figure out. They have my car for another two weeks as of yesterday and really hope that the hardware is not the issue and the software can be sorted out. We started off having 5 tunes to try right of the bat, hopefully one of them gives an answer to what the correct path to head down is. Long way to go still. This time should be in the high 5's for 60-130 but at least Protomotive was first in the 6's.

The thing needed to make the turbos I have real turbos, is a larger AR turbine, and not like the GTS but I mean large. Going to a Xona or A28 would open up a nightmare with wastegate and tuning, let alone the typical plumbing challenges of this type of turbo upgrade.
Yes and no. I would really need to start looking up underneath the car but the 991 Turbo's are bolting up 30r and 35r turbos now so packaging "shouldn't" be an issue. All 991 widebody's have about the same space under them, after all. Cooling would obviously be a challenge as well as fueling but again I think all of that could be solved with a Syvecs which would take a demand obviously. We are just on the cusp of seeing what the 3.0 Turbo motors can do and people like you are the pioneers for it. I am happily following your progress on seeing what manipulation of the stock ECU can do and I hope ya'll find whatever is causing the issues. I think with enough time and effort the code will be cracked.

https://www.syvecs.com/product/porsche-991-2-turbo/
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