Battery replacement quote - does this make sense?
 

My car is in the shop for some warranty work (new pistons for rear deck lid, window drop fix, and a newly found transmission leak (only needs a new transmission pan!)) and my SA, who seems to be a good guy, mentioned that my battery is starting to go. He offered to replace it for a whopping $796. The battery itself is $406 and the "programming" is $390 (including battery test, charging test, and replacement labor).

I've done a little research on this, but I thought I'd give some more info about what my SA is saying about the "programming." "The new Porsche battery comes with a code that gets programed to a few computers to allow full communicate in the vehicle . You will find that something will not work or will stop working if an aftermarket battery is put in and the programming is not done."

Does this make any sense? What could possibly stop working if the battery is not programmed? I've asked my SA, but have so far gotten no reply.

I figure I could get a better battery than the Porsche OEM one for about $200 and install it myself in about 30 minutes, according to threads on this board.

What am I missing here?

You figure correctly. What year is your car. Are you using a battery maintainer??

Only makes sense if you agree to pay it! I always buy my batteries from Walmart and install myself. Cost around $100 for the battery. All else is fluff for the dealer.

BatteriesPlus. Duracell Ultra Platinum AGM Battery

$229 minus a $10 Rebate minus another 10% off when bought online and picked up in store.

Walmart does not have AGM batteries. A high-quality replacement battery will be about $200.

2014 C4S. Have not been using a maintainer, since I drive the car a few times a week, but I do own one. I used it every once in a while when I had my 997.

I just found this youtube video showing a battery replacement on a 2014 Cayman. I think it's the same as for our cars. It looks STUPID simple (famous last words)...

Battery Maintainer
 

You did very well. OE Porsche factory batteries last about 5 years.

Sorry for the possibly dumb question because the page literally says, "2014 Porsche 911 H6 3.8L," but is this the right one?
https://www.batteriesplus.com/batter...40cca/sli49agm

Thanks, but I've only had the car since February. I have no idea if/when it was last replaced.

I'll check the make/model of my trickle charger. It was given to me by my dealer when I bought my 2006 997 in 2012. I have no idea if it will charge an AGM battery.

I do believe the car has to be reprogrammed when you replace the battery. I think it regulates alternator output and charging based on the condition of the battery. I know we had to do this on our Z4 after I replaced the battery, but the indy didn't charge us anything when they were doing another service on it.

owners manual for my 2018 says a new battery needs to be initialized in the gateway control panel after installation. Contact an authorized Porsche dealer.

Has anyone replaced a 991 battery without "programming" it and had any weirdness?

If it only reduces the battery life, I could buy 4 aftermarket batteries for the cost of a single dealer-installed battery. So even if the life is reduced to 2 years, I'd still get 8 years from $800 rather than the 5 I'd get from a dealer-installed battery...

Sounds like he was trying to do you a favor by charging you about $800 for a freaking battery. Crazy. Buy an AMG battery and put it in yourself. Save about $550. Take the wife out to an expensive dinner and then buy her a gift too for being such a good wife. Or buy the kids a nice holiday present. This programming stuff is just a scare tactic to separate you from your hard earned money.

Your SA sounds like a grinch wannabe.

On the reprogramming thing.

The only comment made when I asked about this subject was if you replace with the same TYPE of battery .... reprogramming is not necessary.

When you change types then you have to tell the car so it will not over/under charge.

I changed mine when the time came last year w/o reprogramming and everything has been fine.

2013 C4S. Replaced battery DIY about 8 months ago. No "programming ", no issues.

No. But they have bonus programs based on profitability and high customer survey scores. In general. I'm sure there's exceptions.

In reference to commissions, I don't know about the Porsche model, however Toyota does. In most if not ALL dealerships, service is by far the biggest revenue generating branch of the dealership, parts is second.

I snuck in once on a impromptu Toyota service advisor meeting. They were getting reamed out for not hitting Monthly goals...seriously. I feel bad for the uneducated person, even my wife, who say would go into a Honda or Toyota place for service and totally get taken advantage of. I guarantee it happens every day. I can't imaging Porsche is much different. I can tell this just by reading posts on Rennlist. They (try) put the fear of god into you and your wallet.

Having said all that, I'm sure not all are like that. They are there to provide quality service to the Porsche owner with oem parts.

Sorry for the rant.

AGM is a new term for me, is that battery standard equipment in a 2014 C2? Thanks, R.

Yes. All 991s have the new AGM battery technology.

Just to clarify. AGM batteries have been in commercial use for about 20 years. A big reason they are seeing use in passenger cars now is their deep cycling ability which makes them a better choice for auto stop starting vs a flooded cell type.

Got the AGM noted in #4 above about 10 months ago and put in in myself. No issues, no required programming, no lost settings. The hardest part is standing in the frunk (bent over) and lifting that 55 pound chunk from between the feet into the well.

Another option for the money saved.... lithium perhaps? Benefits abound....

from battery university (not making that up):

Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM)

AGM technology became popular in the early 1980s as a sealed lead acid battery for military aircraft, vehicles and UPS to reduce weight and improve reliability. The sulfuric acid is absorbed by a very fine fiberglass mat, making the battery spill-proof. This enables shipment without hazardous material restrictions. The plates can be made flat to resemble a standard flooded lead acid pack in a rectangular case; they can also be wound into a cylindrical cell.

AGM has very low internal resistance, is capable to deliver high currents on demand and offers a relatively long service life, even when deep cycled. AGM is maintenance free, provides good electrical reliability and is lighter than the flooded lead acid type. While regular lead acid batteries need a topping charge every six months to prevent the buildup of sulfation, AGM batteries are less prone to sulfation and can sit in storage for longer before a charge becomes necessary. The battery stands up well to low temperatures and has a low self-discharge.

The leading advantages of AGM are a charge that is up to five times faster than the flooded version, and the ability to deep cycle. AGM offers a depth-of-discharge of 80 percent; the flooded, on the other hand, is specified at 50 percent DoD to attain the same cycle life. The negatives are slightly lower specific energy and higher manufacturing costs than the flooded, but cheaper than the gel battery.

Most AGM batteries are mid-sized and range from 30 to 100Ah. They can also be found in UPS, big and small for stationary and deep cycle use. They are commonly built to size and are found in high-end vehicles to run power-hungry accessories such as heated seats, steering wheels, mirrors and windshields. NASCAR and other auto racing leagues choose AGM products because they are vibration resistant.

...

AGM is making inroads into the start-stop function of cars. The classic flooded type is simply not robust enough and repeated cycling causes a sharp capacity fade after only two years of use. (See BU-806a: Heat, Loading and Battery Life.)

As with all gelled and sealed units, AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging. A charge to 2.40V/cell (and higher) is fine; however, the float charge should be reduced to between 2.25 and 2.30V/cell (summer temperatures may require lower voltages). Automotive charging systems for flooded lead acid often have a fixed float voltage setting of 14.40V (2.40V/cell); a direct replacement with a sealed unit could overcharge the battery on a long drive.

Dude, Please dont do this YOUR SA is a dick
 

Dude, Please don't do this YOUR SA is a dick (ie. not a good guy) and if you do this we all get to pay the Porsche tax situations like this enable. There is a video how to on replacing a battery on here and anyone with a borderline IQ could perform this task. Any battery will work I recommend the AGM Bosch from pepboys asit comes with a 5 year warranty but make sure you check the manufacture date (you want it within 4 months of today) . Your battery requires no programming (per another thread on RL). I have a 2012. and the original battery is perfect. Don't replace parts for the sake of replacing parts or because your stealership SA needs a new tommy chu chu for his 8 year old.

Dude..

Dude.

I bought a Duracell battery last night from Batteries+ for about $200 and will replace the current battery on my own when I get the car back tomorrow or Thursday.

Video certainly makes it look easy. Hopefully there won't be any snags.

Mgordon18, here is the best battery thread on Rennlist. This will help your planned Thursday DIY:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1041...ement-diy.html

Many years ago. I haven't seen a large auto battery for Porsche or BMW at that price for a long time. More like $200 now, but point taken!

They do or did. I purchased one from Walmart for a BMW. AGM.

Correct on BMW's per manufacture procedures. BMW has use AGM for more than a decade, I've replace with AGM and didn't register. Battery lasted 4 years with more life to go and no issues before selling car. Lasted 3 years with more life to go on another BMW before being sold. Not worth the cost to "reset" or tell the car there is a new battery. It's easier to just replace the battery when it dies. I suspect the same deal on a 991.

Nice vid on battery replacement, but with a Antigravity Lithium battery. Sure is light weight but muy expensivo


If you do buy a lithium battery, you need a special battery maintainer for it, correct?

GREAT Video!!

Can you use one of those "pocket" battery jumpers on the interior in the fuse box instead of the Porsche battery tender?

I replaced it w/o reprogramming also and when casually mentioning reprogramming to my SA at a later service, he gave me quizzical look and said reprogramming was not needed... I did the very same math you did above... It's been almost 2 years, zero issues.

ironically I believe my original porsche battery was needlessly replaced by me (it was almost 5y old so no harm done). I since bought a really good tester and it tested fine for its age, once out of the car. What tricked me is that the 991 draws a crap ton of current when you open the door or hood to even check the voltage... it always reads low initially when checking that way because it's sucking electrons and the alternator is not yet running... I've since added pigtails for the ctek that exit by the base of windshield - I recommend you do that when changing battery, perfect timing - and am able to a) recharge it without opening the car at all and b) check voltage w/o waking up the car, it's fine at 12.6 instad of the 12.2 I might see when using the dash display... Still overall I'd recommend plugging that car to a Ctek anytime it's not gonna be used for a week, it draws juice...

Thanks LexVan - I've seen that thread in my searching, but I'll read through more of the details over the next day or so.

My car died in my garage so I called AAA. Tech had no idea that the engine was in the rear but was enthusiastic and I felt we could do the replacement together. He put a power source through the OBD to prevent loss of settings. We removed all the parts necessary to remove the battery which was simple and the only quirk we came across was that the new battery was much larger than the old one. We figured out that there are multiple holes for the bracket that hold the battery in place so the size of the new battery was not a problem. We got it all back together and the new battery has a really good warranty. Cost was $145 which is really good

Are you sure that you did not put in a replacement lead acid battery that requires a vent tube?

OK I'll ask, what's the OBD?

On
Board
Diagnostic

Onboard Diagnostic (port). Generally located somewhere under the driver's side dash but I'm not sure where it is on a 911 ;-] That's where inspection stations, mechanics, etc plug into the car at to download data or in some cases upload data.

On our 991s, it's under the driver's side fuse box panel.

And on a 991.2 it is the hot pink plug facing down above the driver foot rest, just above your toes.

I successfully accomplished the battery swap tonight in about 40 minutes and I was being SUPER careful. I was so paranoid about dropping that one hard-to-reach nut into the mechanics that I cut a paper plate in half and slid it under to catch it if it fell. Turned out I didn't need it. I was able to grab it. I lost ZERO settings with the switch and all looks well. I reset the windows just in case, though.

One potential issue. The negative contact did not go all the way down onto the new battery's post. See image below. Is this a problem? It looks as though there's a little nick in the post that might be keeping it from seating all the way down. Should I pull it off and try to smooth out that nick and get the contact to the bottom of the post? I could also loosen the contact again and try to spread the hoop wide enough to get all the way down, but I'm spooked to go in there with a screwdriver to spread it out...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...46aa502451.jpg

That's fine just the way it is. Great job!

Good Job...and you did not get ripped off by the stealership !

I have used lithium batteries in my track cars, they used to be super expensive like 4-6K 10years ago. I had sponsorship so that helped but still were expensive.
I use it now in my motorcycle. I use a Optimate battery maintainer with that.
$700 is pretty cheap considering the weight savings.

you do need a lithium battery maintainer.

I bought the Porsche Battery Maintainer Pro, which supports lithium battery.
this is a no brainer mod.

That's not how warranties work. They can't void it in entirety. Only with the correlated parts/system. For example, if you put an aftermarket exhaust on, that does not void your radio warranty.

Agree with LexVan.

My S/A said that the battery reprogramming was apparently to let the ECU know the new battery's specs to optimize the charging behavior for the battery and the Auto Stop/Start system's behavior. Apparently the car alters its charging (and discharging behavior for Auto Stop/Start) over the estimated life of the battery. Now you can argue that not telling the car the changed battery's spec may lead to a bit of a difference in that battery's life, but you can buy multiple quality aftermarket batteries for the cost of one Porsche battery with the dealer installation cost... so paying to go with a Porsche battery doesn't still doesn't add up to me.

I should add. A lot of us here have been using non-programmed aftermarket batteries for years now and I don't recall single report of a problem with the second battery or any ill effects to the car from doing this. I used one on my last car and it worked just fine until I sold it.

Under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act they would have to show that the battery was the cause of the failure. What failure is a quality aftermarket battery going to cause? If this was a problem, the likely majority of us that have been getting aftermarket batteries would have been raising hell about it on this forum by now. I've heard nothing. You have pretty much everyone here telling you it is fine... and we have nothing to gain or lose by telling you this. Don't forget they have products they want to sell you and it's part of their job to encourage you in that direction and it's the lead mechanic's job to do things by the book.

I'm typically glad to pay extra for the official parts when I'm there might be a benefit, but I don't see it here. If you do, and peace of mind can be that benefit, then that's completely understandable.

Don't get bullied by the stealership. All they want to do is scare you and charge you for it. Can understand warranty issues if you did a tune, but a battery? No.

just installed Varta E39 AGM battery, lower charging voltage and voltage reading before start is 12.2 now vs 11.9V on the old Porsche battery.

total cost: $184 and 15 min of my time


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...14f66b0683.jpg

At $390 labor, what are they programming for 3 hours? lol
A battery test is done with something like a Midtronics conductance tester. That takes a whole minute. And by the way, its a crappy test of a battery having worked in a government lab testing batteries and chargers. (a real capacity test takes hours to complete and the shops do not have the equipment)

And what needs to be programmed? I'd love to know what aspects of a battery's specs it needs to know.

Edited to add after doing some digging: The charge algorithm which is based on the type of battery chemistry and the Ah rating. The charge algorithm makes sense because the last thing you want to do is overcharge a VRLA battery (AGM or GEL).

The ICarsoft POR v2 will register a new battery to the Battery Management System. New on eBay for $150, and it will reset oil/service reminders.

https://www.icarsoft.com/Product/s-3...ft_POR_V2.html

VRLA BATTERY
 

I did some research and uncovered that all 991s have VRLA batteries. I also believe that the battery is a VRLA of the EFB type (Enhanced Flooded Batteries) and that is what is stamped on my OEM battery (2015 C4S).

I keep reading about the Start-Stop system with recuperation. The only recuperation I've ever come across was on a Prius or other hybrid or electric car.

The following website provides good information on the difference between EFB and AGM. If we had an AGM battery, would that not be stamped on indicated on the battery?

https://www.rotronicsbms.com/battery...ded-batteries/

Just got off the phone with my favorite service advisor on this topic. Learned a few things:

1. He specifically does not recommend the Porsche battery and instead sells his clients quality 3rd party batteries at lower cost.
​​​​​​2. He does recommend the software calibration service. I called in and did mention that my auto start-stop system no longer functions. He stated that once the software estimates 75% of the life ​​of the battery has passed it disables that system.
3. He said he'll ask the tech what he thinks about me bringing in an Anti Gravity lithium battery.

My car's original battery seems to still be performing okay, though I'd say there is certainly room for improvement. Voltage while running is around 14.9-15.1 and before start 11.9. Thoughts?

2014, production 04/2014. I believe it is original...

My 2015 has the following battery. The VRLA marking is under the battery strap but the following pic has the Porsche part number (999.611.080.12) on it and shows that it is a VRLA battery and that to me means either an AGM or GEL. Likely an AGM.

I found a pic of the top of an EFB battery and it does not indicate that it is a VRLA type. VRLA by the way stands for Valve Regulated Lead Acid.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3671ad37d1.jpg

Note the circled text and part number...

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...090f3413d9.jpg

The 14.9 to 15.1V sounds normal. I have the same indications on my Multi Information Display. Initially I thought that was high and it certainly would be for a standard flooded lead acid battery (14.4V).

But these are VRLA - AGM batteries and if you go to the Banner battery site and download their tech page that call for 14.8V at standard temperature of 25C or 77F. Voltages increase as the temperature decreases and vice versa.

Plus you have to look at "where" that voltage is measured; at the alternator which is at the back of the car or at the battery in the front. You can easily lose 0.1V or more just at the battery coming from the alternator.

Your 11.9V is too low if that was an open circuit voltage, meaning no loads are on...everything is off in the vehicle.

I wonder how well it works considering a load test is done at 1/2 the CCA for 15 seconds. I wonder how the numbers would compare.

My powered-off voltage was read with the radio on and fan blower operating.

I'll consider bringing it to Batteries Plus for a battery test... though I don't think I want to take it out of the car without a tender for an extended period.

Going to contact Anti Gravity batteries to see if they have a recommendation for what to select in PIWIS during a battery calibration reset. Considering dropping the coin for one of theirs

Found the answer to the "braking energy recuperation" theory in the Banner website FAQ. Now it is just a matter of confirming that the 991 alternator acts as described below.

Quite simply, brake energy recovery.
When you accelerate or brake, some of your car's kinetic energy is usually lost. Part of this energy is recovered through recuperation.
This is because the alternator (also called generator) intentionally puts more strain on it in this phase, the voltage of the alternator is raised so that the charging process is accelerated and thus more energy is supplied to the battery. The alternator converts the kinetic energy into electricity, in principle like a bicycle dynamo. In acceleration phases and in normal operation, the output of the alternator can be partially reduced or even set to zero, which means more energy is available for the drive.
The reason: The vehicle now uses the energy that the battery has previously stored. This saves fuel and emissions. Because Banner Running Bull series start-stop car batteries are real CO2 and fuel savers.

it does, keep it in normal mode(no sport or +) and watch the voltage , it would hover around 13.6-13.7v while driving, but when breaking it will increase to > 14v

I don't think so. What was your source? As far as I know from my years working in a battery lab, an AGM and GEL is.

I do not know what an Enhanced Flooded Battery (a Banner battery term?) is, maybe just a fancy name for a different FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) battery that can take cycling.

My source: https://www.concordia.ca/content/dam...dBatteries.pdf

What battery lab did you work in all those years?

Here's for the EFB description.

The enhanced flooded battery (EFB) is an upgraded conventional battery. Special additives and the use of a polyester scrim lend the active mass additional hold. As a result, the battery has improved cyclical resistance and is extremely vibration resistant.
Banner recommendation. For safety reasons, when installing the battery indoors always use a degassing hose, which in an emergency will conduct the gas outwards.

TECHNICAL DATA AND INFOS

• Nonwoven layer on the separator and a special active mass recipe
• Twice the cycle life as compared to standard starter batteries.
• E3 classification pursuant to EN 50342-1.
• Highest V3 vibration resistance pursuant to EN 50342-1
• Double-lid top for maximum leak protection and the highest operational safety
• Absolute maintenance-free owing to modern calcium mesh technology.

I now agree that the VRLA battery installed in my 2015 is an AGM VRLA-type based on my latest findings concerning the braking energy recuperation theory in the Banner description.

Cheers,

National Defense battery lab where I tested chargers and batteries. We would do the full test on batteries: load and capacity test using proper but time consuming equipment. Its why I have seen big differences in readings between fast and easy conductance testers like a MidTronics or that Solar shown a few posts above to real "time consuming" capacity tests using a Programma Torkel 840/860. As for charger testing, lets not go there other than to say many so-called high tech chargers promise you the world...right on their packaging. lol

This is the Banner battery I believe we have in our cars, less the Porsche and Porsche part numbers on the label. The specs are the same as those in my car. Some vehicles have the 70 Ah battery, I have the 80 Ah battery.

Bammer Batteries Source US
 

Where did you find in the Us to purchase banner batteries (I can only find them in Europe).

All this talk about AGM, VRLA, SLA, EFB is making my head spin. Can't we just buy an Interstate or Duracell AGM battery to replace the Banner when it dies? I mean, the Interstate or Duracell or whatever is not going to make the car explode, will it?

Obviously to the first question and obviously not to the second question. I'll just use an East Penn, a manufacturer of batteries. So many of them are just relabeled and made by Johnson Controls and a few others, etc.

In fact the last Interstate I think it was, had a "Made in Germany" sticker on it. Saw that on one of the threads on here.

Want to start an oil thread? It would be far worse and based on conjecture.

Just mentioned them as it is the Porsche factory installation in my 2015. See post #69 above - pic of a Porsche - Banner battery in my GTS.

Methinks the only Banner brand battery you may be able to purchase in Canada or the US is probably going to be from a Porsche dealer parts department.

FWIW, now that I know that the OEM Banner (Porsche) battery is an AGM, I would not have a problem with purchasing a replacement battery from Porsche.

In Canada, we always pay 35% more in CAD due to the USD exchange rate. Plus, since we don't have the population and sales' numbers, add another 10% - 15% on top of that, then add a 5% for the Liberal government's corruption & collusion needs and you end up with a Porsche AGM battery being sold by the dealership at approx $400 + 15% (taxes). But we are used to being exploited...it's the Canadian way.

However, I refuse to pay $170 per hour to have a it installed...there I draw the line.

The aftermarket high end AGM batteries in Canada run upwards of $375 CAD + 15% tax. So in the end, I don't mind buying from the Porsche dealer parts' department and drinking their free caffé latté. It gives me some "face-time" with them and provides indulgences for future requests.

Gas

Does anyone with a 991.1 use this battery? There has been discussion at the 958 forum that this battery is made in Germany by the same supplier of Porsche batteries:

AutoCraft Platinum AGM Battery, Group Size H8, 900 CCA

Found it. Who knows who it is made by. Could be Moll-Kamina who used to make them for Porsche (993). I know my East Penn battery I installed in my 993 looked 100% identical to the Porsche Moll-Kamina I took out, other than case color.

Also note that it states "Marketed by Interstate Batteries" and not "Manufactured by" just above the bar code sticker.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e9cb361b1.jpeg

I have been doing some research both here and in the 958 forum. It looks to me that Porsche has been putting different size batteries in the 958.

Here, Lexvan's link to the self installation thread shows a 70ah, 760 CCA battery, while IXLR8 shows a 80ah, 800 CCA battery. So, I think a 95ah, 900 CCA should cover all bases

It is a lot colder up here and I guess Porsche covered their butt in case someone is _____ enough to drive their 911 in the winter.

If you have trouble starting, it is either a tired battery, a charging system not performing, a wiring connection issue or the starter. Pointless going bigger...your choice.

My friend's 997 was ultra slow to start when hot. Installed the much talked about on RL wiring harness. That wasn't it. New battery even though it tested good. That wasn't it. It was the starter. Faulty starter which I rebuilt and is a spare now.

One of these days someone ought to turn all these "scare tactics" episodes into a class action lawsuit.

are you in the US?
because Varta doe not sell it in the US...
I am lloking for a 49/H8 AGM

Get the Duracell Ultra Platinum H8 from batteries Plus. $185 with the 20% coupon. Made in USA by East Penn Company. It's an AGM battery similar to the OEM H8. Quality product with great specs. Free Install.