PTS-BRG

Dont edit your post, keep it live because if one of those unequal length, squashed headers (like the OEM headers) pumps out more HP than your visual love affair with the Vektor's do, I'm going to ship you some 2x reading glasses to improve your vision when looking at parts going forward..

Just because it looks "better" doesn't make it better. The factory headers are about as ugly, squashed and uneven as one could envision, but they still havent been beat in performance yet that I have seen.. We shall see..

4 Point 0

I won't edit my friend, but it is you that needs the glasses. Once again you wish to completely "ignore" the independant tests that showed 19 Hp. Where are your glasses? You read the independent tests that showed you 19hp. Just because you ignored them, doesn't mean you have not seen them?

As I said above, I can see it has superior flow. I cannot see if that makes more Hp or how much it makes. But my expectation is, that with superior flow, should come superior Hp. Again, their independent dyno was 19 hp. So we are not talking much at all.

I would love to see any info on Kline? Do they claim HP gain?

PTS-BRG

MotoIq is a paid advertising online magazine. Not at all independent. Why dont you go to their site and search every single article. NOT ONE shows a negative test, part or review.
That isnt independent, its a paid advertisement and as such I put no weight in anything they write. The other 2 are so far off from one another that it makes no sense.
Also, completely anonymous graphs with no support at all. We can argue this for the next 2 years, only the dyno tests will answer the question and when I offered to have BGB motorsports do it they questioned his ethics, so if he isnt qualified then NO test I can produce will suffice. I will go on record that if the vectors DO provide the best gains I will go out and buy a pair for my own car. No grudges held with me, I want the best and if they have the best headers then I will buy them. Somehow I just get a gut feeling they are full of ****...

4 Point 0

This is the bit I don't understand. I am an, "Innocent until proven guilty" type of guy. You seem to be, "They are full of it" until I proove otherwise, type of guy. Have you been burnt badly before?

These companies have quite a bit at stake. If they were ever found out to "Willfully mislead, or blatantly lie" a community like this would shun them bigtime.

The thing is, years ago, companies would make outrageous claims about power. Claiming 50Hp form an air filter etc. That seems to have died out. 19hp form headers seems reasonable. And 15hp from an IPD. They are not outrageous claims. Its going to cost a lot to get moddest gains out of these cars. I understand that. In fact I don't expect to get the full gains, until Stage 2 tune. Thats when all of these parts start to work together, when you tune harder. Until you start increasing everything, the stock system probably handles everything ok.

spdracerut

I would note that MotoIQ hid absolutely nothing. They even used an independent dyno (World Motorsport) and showed how they dyno'd the car. They also talked about how they did the drive cycle after installing the headers to make sure the ECU had properly adapted. World Motorsport is used by many high-end exotics and Craig Paisley helps run thing there. He has an extensive background in the tuner industry. You can easily call World Motorsport and ask for them about the test. And they provided the data to MotoIQ.

Also, about the independent test with Fabspeed and Kline providing headers for free. Good for them. Why should Vektor provide headers for free? And who is running this independent test and what's their reputation? And to take your mindset, how do we know they wouldn't skew the data? Easy enough to change the dyno test method to change the results. We've already seen how sensitive the 991.2 is to intercooler heat soak. Whoever is conducting this independent test can just buy a set of Vektor headers.

Can people SEE if a headers has better flow characteristics and therefore power characteristics? Of course, it's called having studied fluid mechanics. Adrian Newey can just visualize aerodynamics in his head.

PTS-BRG

Spdracerut: Please post a link to a single article in MotoIQ history that is negative, shows a product in poor light or issues a "do not recommend".
Since you cannot, then I would hope you would accept that this is not an online independent review it is a paid advertisement. It is impossible for every part you ever test to be excellent.

No one asked Vektor to provide free headers, I asked if the results on the dyno didnt come close to what they advertised if they could be returned for a full refund. THEY REFUSED.
The other two manufacturers had no issues with returns FOR ANY REASON within a certain timeframe, I think its 30 days but not sure.

I dont own any stock in any of these companies, all I want is the top performing header. If that isnt sufficient for you to accept my results then you are free to accept anyone else's results, just like I am free to not accept anonymous dyno charts and results from paid online publications.

I will no longer address the foolishness of superiority from looking at parts, I cannot do stupid any more. Go look at the stock headers and see if their flow characteristics look good. Then let me know when you overlay the OEM dyno to any Aftermarket headers dyno which one makes more power over the entire RPM range. I dont know, but the dyno will tell the story.

flsupraguy

Since Kline and Fabspeed offer a 30 day return policy why dont you give one of them a shot?

VektorPerformance

Vektor is a new company for certain, I on the other hand have been designing successful turbo manifolds and turbocharged systems for the better part of a decade and been a student of design for decades before that. I don't want to date myself, but this is far from my first rodeo. I have been super fortunate to have worked with some pretty amazing people in the motorsports industry from highly educated engineers to professional drivers. It has been a humbling experience and my hope with Vektor is to pass on I have learned to provide the utmost in quality and performance. If you can't see our philosophy "Excellence through the Pursuit of Perfection" in the quality, design, and testing, then I have failed to convey clearly our process or you are looking through rose colored glasses. As far as 'building' a reputation I am in no rush. Those that have taken the plunge appear to be very happy with the product. This gives me far more pleasure than forum acceptance. If that comes in time, so be it.

As stated by others, it's blatantly obvious the OEM manifolds are cost based pieces. The nice thing about forced induction (from an OEM standpoint) is you can really cut cost with the manifold design and still make a power target. Does this mean you will make the most efficient power? Absolutely not. Optimizing a manifold costs a lot of money. From a development and manufacturing standpoint, it's low hanging fruit for cost savings. if you can't visually see how the OEM manifold is not as efficient as a header then there is nothing I can say, teach, plot, graph, simulate, sketch and so on, that will change your mind. As far as losses, there is ALWAYS a loss. It might be a power loss, it might be a response loss or it might be a loss to your wallet, but nothing is free except for what you have right now.

Never said "don't trust your testing", but thanks for trying to throw me under the buss on that one. What I sad was that we have our testing and independent testing from not one, but two sources. There has also been at least one customer that's floated around some very good looking before/after plots as well. So you have ours (that you obviously don't believe) and then you have three other sources that show results as good, or better than our own results... which you also don't believe. I am confident in our product, YOU are not. That is not MY fault that I won't give away or discount our product so you can feel better about your decision making process.

How about you do your research and make a decision. Or are you just picking Kline for reputation? Or are you really looking for the best performing product? You've stated both.

spdracerut

Here's a thought, they actually help companies with doing testing for product development. I follow Kojima on FB and last week they were out at El Mirage helping an OEM do off-road suspension development. So if they test something and it doesn't work well, the company goes back and revises it. The thing with MotoIQ is the typically show the most with regards to test setup and data. For example, their test of the $7k Dundon GT3RS exhaust system which had a max torque gain of 7 ft-lb. That's 1 lb-ft per thousand dollars which is not what I'd call a great performance per dollar, but they showed it.

Garrett intercooler test where they show inlet/outlet temps over a range of pulls in addition to dyno data:
https://motoiq.com/tested-honeywell-...ost-mustang/6/

BRZ testing with Fluidampr which showed no power gain:
hhttps://motoiq.com/fluidampr-the-independent-test/3/

Foolishiness of determining characteristics by visual examination? It's called having studied science and engineering. You think a trained welder can't spot a weld with poor penetration and porosity and contamination from a good weld? There's a reason aerospace certified welders get paid a ton of money, people's lives depend on the quality of their welds.

Here, I'll give you a few quick guides on fluid flow losses:
entrance/exit/step flows
https://neutrium.net/fluid_flow/pres...-in-pipe-size/

pipe flow:
http://fluid.itcmp.pwr.wroc.pl/~znmp...cture11_12.pdf


If you want to dig deeper in the governing equations on fluid flow, this guy's thesis paper covers it along with analysis of fluid flow in T-junctions of pipes which is basically what the headers are:
http://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle...0808041754.pdf

PTS-BRG

I have not picked any header yet. I am waiting until all of the dyno results are in before buying one. If it so happens to be Vektor then I will buy Vektor and if its Kline then its Kline.

"It might be a power loss, it might be a response loss or it might be a loss to your wallet, but nothing is free except for what you have right now."
If you are acknowledging that your headers might provide a power or response loss over OEM then this is the first time I have heard you say this and its contradictory to the test results you have provided.
I dont think too many folks would pay $4000 for headers that decrease power or response (except maybe 4 point 0) but, if the welds look nice then maybe?

"I won't give away or discount our product so you can feel better about your decision making process"

Never asked for free headers. Never asked for a discount either. Go back and re-read the thread posts. I will pay FULL RETAIL for the Vektors, so long as I can return them for a full refund if they do not perform reasonably close to what your 3 other dyno tests have shown. I also agreed to allow the forum to be the deciding judge of what reasonably close is so that you cannot back peddle into "fearing" what I feel close is. Still not willing..

Your unwillingness to stand behind your product is what disgusts me the most. Do you think people (ME) want to spend hundreds of dollars in labor and hundreds more in dyno testing JUST to return your headers?
Or maybe I have a vendetta against you and your company because I work for (WHOEVER) and want to destroy your product? I WANT YOUR HEADERS TO BE THE BEST PERFORMING AND WANT TO TEST THEM.

Its going to happen in short time anyway so I do wish you the best of luck in the shootout. I am fully aware that if your headers do not perform as advertised that there will be a myriad of excuses from altitude to heat soak to accuracy of dyno to blah blah blah, but I am also certain based on the number of PM's I have received that there are a great many people very interested in the results. I think the winner will eliminate the losers from the marketplace, so I understand the concern...

spdracerut

Quick application of basic fluid mechanics.
PTS-BRG, I think you'll agree that Kline has tightest bends and Vektor the most gentle? A regular 90deg flanged pipe elbow has a flow loss coefficient of 0.3 vs. a long radius 0.2.



I snagged this picture of the fabspeed runner entrance from boostaddict where you can clearly see there's a step in the flow in the transition from oval to round.


Basic equation for calculating flow loss coefficient for a step. Obviously, if there is no step, then D1 = D2 which results in no flow loss.


Those are just super simple applications of fluid mechanics to visual analysis of the headers. As for equal vs. non-equal length and acoustic tuning, that's a whole other field and applies differently between turbo engines and NA engines. I read an article in Racecar Engineering about a decade back on turbo header design and when the head of Audi Motorsport says it's more important that turbo headers are equal length than trying to get a tuned runner length, I'll go with that. Who am I to doubt a guy that had won the 24 Hour of Le Mans a bunch of times.

PTS-BRG

Not getting into a pissing match about fluid mechanics, but I can tell you something...

Those gentle bends and even length tubes also reduce the amount of clearance from the road.
There is a reason why Porsche tucks them up in there and while Vektors have lovely smooth flowing bends, they also reduce rear end clearance by several inches.

Like Mr Vektor said: Nothing is free except what you have..

spdracerut

And here's a link that describes the criteria used during visual weld inspection. Yes, how a weld looks is important if you want a reliable product:
https://www.elitewa.com.au/welding-inspection.php

PTS-BRG

Not discussing how a poor weld compromises a connection or how porosity in a weld can allow gas/water to escape.

I am talking about a pretty weld compared to one less pretty, both being proper welds. Doesnt make a damn bit of difference.

spdracerut

From the pictures I've seen, the rear subframe is lower than the vektor headers. If you're more concerned about clearance from the road than performance, then you would never drive a car with lowered suspension.