2018 GTS vs 2018 GT3 road course who wins?
01-22-2018, 06:48 PM
#61
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
01-22-2018, 10:03 PM
#62
I would be clear that your strong opinion is just that - your opinion based on what you want/look for in a car 
It comes up a lot knocking the turbo'd cars
Two family friends have Turbo S's (991.1 cab and 991.2) and could not be happier when I'm chatting with them geeking out over their cars. These guys have owned 911s for quite some time and believe the Turbo to be as good as it gets, they don't want the in your face looks of the GT cars or loudness of that engine when just driving around town and to work, want the top of the line 911 with all options (not a Panamera), and are racking up the miles on theirs. They do not track their cars (no track in Hawaii). They drive to and from work every day enjoying their coffee and Burmester - fast. Drive to nice dinners, everywhere. Suspension is great, car looks great. They both want the 992 Turbo S when it's out.
What's funny is that the Turbo owners I know are really quiet about their cars and keep to themselves unless asked, and just enjoy their car. They aren't on Rennlist but just enjoy what they have... no complaints on sound, or "too surgical"! And these guys have the purchasing history to get on "the list" for the GT3 @ MSRP and just don't care for it.
The world will not end when all 911s are turbo'd. go on YouTube and listen to McLaren's MP4/4 (the most dominant car in Formula 1 history), guess what it's turbocharged (2.5 bar!!!) and sounds absolutely amazing to me. So it's not a matter of turbo as much as engineering the right sound and Porsche will get it down/is doing a fine job of it...
It comes up a lot knocking the turbo'd carsTwo family friends have Turbo S's (991.1 cab and 991.2) and could not be happier when I'm chatting with them geeking out over their cars. These guys have owned 911s for quite some time and believe the Turbo to be as good as it gets, they don't want the in your face looks of the GT cars or loudness of that engine when just driving around town and to work, want the top of the line 911 with all options (not a Panamera), and are racking up the miles on theirs. They do not track their cars (no track in Hawaii). They drive to and from work every day enjoying their coffee and Burmester - fast. Drive to nice dinners, everywhere. Suspension is great, car looks great. They both want the 992 Turbo S when it's out.
What's funny is that the Turbo owners I know are really quiet about their cars and keep to themselves unless asked, and just enjoy their car. They aren't on Rennlist but just enjoy what they have... no complaints on sound, or "too surgical"! And these guys have the purchasing history to get on "the list" for the GT3 @ MSRP and just don't care for it.
The world will not end when all 911s are turbo'd. go on YouTube and listen to McLaren's MP4/4 (the most dominant car in Formula 1 history), guess what it's turbocharged (2.5 bar!!!) and sounds absolutely amazing to me. So it's not a matter of turbo as much as engineering the right sound and Porsche will get it down/is doing a fine job of it...
01-22-2018, 10:32 PM
#63
Well the GT3 is an illogical hybrid..semi race car roaming the streets with a motor soon to be extinct but with all the modern toys we expect in it. It's just wrong. I can't wait to get mine!
The Turbo is like a good woman that does everything right. Still you look out the window for that GT3 to drive by!!
The Turbo is like a good woman that does everything right. Still you look out the window for that GT3 to drive by!!
01-23-2018, 02:18 AM
#65
As many have mentioned over a single lap the two will be very close on equal tires. The GTS's softer setup favors bumpy tracks, the GT3's setup will likely excel at very high speeds (downforce), quick transients (tight double autocross moves, etc) and cope with stickier than stock tires better. Subjective experience aside I agree it's hard to see the value in the GT3 when looking at fraction of a second differences in lap times.
Of course there are a couple different reasons to care about lap times. Many will use them as a measure of how capable a car is even if they rarely if ever use the available performance. Others will intend to actually use their car on the track. If that's the case there are big objective differences between the GTS and GT3 to keep in mind- enough to justify the price difference to some. Most of the differences have to do with additional adjust-ability and durability built into the GT3 that mostly come into play after that first lap. Most of this isn't obvious until you start poking under the hood, where the GT3 gets:
All of these changes mean that Porsche feels comfortable explicitly extending warranty coverage to a GT3 used on the track (as long as it's maintained properly), something PCNA doesn't do for other models. It also goes part of the way to explaining why Porsche can and does charge significantly more for GT3s despite the fact that they are only marginally faster at best. You'll know if you're the type of driver that's going to benefit from the changes; for the majority of customers they will be overkill and unnecessary.
One final note- in my personal opinion it's a bit criminal to order a GT3 fully loaded. If you're of the "more is better" mindset I'd steer you towards a Turbo, which will be faster still (but doesn't get the GT3's special bits).
Of course there are a couple different reasons to care about lap times. Many will use them as a measure of how capable a car is even if they rarely if ever use the available performance. Others will intend to actually use their car on the track. If that's the case there are big objective differences between the GTS and GT3 to keep in mind- enough to justify the price difference to some. Most of the differences have to do with additional adjust-ability and durability built into the GT3 that mostly come into play after that first lap. Most of this isn't obvious until you start poking under the hood, where the GT3 gets:
- Adjustable swaybars- valuable for adapting the car to conditions and different or worn tires.
- Provision for track alignment - the ability to dial in significant additional camber for performance and reduced tire wear and the ability to corner weight.
- Additional engine cooling capacity- extra center radiator, higher flow ducting for longer sessions and consistent performance in all conditions.
- Additional brake cooling- extra ducts front and rear to improve pad and rotor life and increase maximum brake capability.
- External dry sump- insures engine oiling on sticker tires and banked corners.
- Hundreds of components beefed up for track use- suspension arms, uprights, local chassis strengthening, etc.
All of these changes mean that Porsche feels comfortable explicitly extending warranty coverage to a GT3 used on the track (as long as it's maintained properly), something PCNA doesn't do for other models. It also goes part of the way to explaining why Porsche can and does charge significantly more for GT3s despite the fact that they are only marginally faster at best. You'll know if you're the type of driver that's going to benefit from the changes; for the majority of customers they will be overkill and unnecessary.
One final note- in my personal opinion it's a bit criminal to order a GT3 fully loaded. If you're of the "more is better" mindset I'd steer you towards a Turbo, which will be faster still (but doesn't get the GT3's special bits).
This raises the question, how many GT3s are correctly corner weighted for the driver and fuel load, how many cars are set up for left or right cornered circuits, how many owners are tweaking their sway bars and understand that the change from "soft" to "med" (outermost to middle setting) obeys a power function. I would suggest its a small number.
In this context, the GTS is easily capable of doing 10 track days per annum, simply have rotors and brake pads ready to roll, you would need to do the same for the GT3.
Another point to note is (at least in my experience) you see very few 991.1 GT3/RSs in timed events, in contrast you do see a lot of 997 GT3s - there are number of reasons for this including (1) shift/change in demographic (2) write off cost and (3) the poor selection of (and availability of) wheels and tires.
Thus a tracked prepped Series II GT3 can quite easily account for a stock 991GT3RS/GT3/GTS. Moreover, if you really want to get into it why bother with a GT3 when you can get a cup car thats fit for purpose.
In my view, the GTS is an excellent choice if you want do a few track/ HPDE days pa or even light stock class competition and at the same time have the benefits, flexibility and optionality that the Carrera series offers. Obviously, the converse applies - if you want to get more hard core then the GT3 is the right tool for the job (as a function of its build as you pointed out above).
Its not either or, or one is better than the other - its by design to be "horses for courses"
If its a few laps its even stevens (down to the driver), if its uphill and a bit rough I'd give the nod to the GTS, if its flat smooth and endurance the GT3 gets the nod.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-23-2018 at 02:41 AM.
01-23-2018, 07:18 AM
#66
^^^Petevb was just explaining that the GT3 had more expensive technology in it warranting the greater price which was what I was claiming false. The price differential (60 grand), the two highest prices for both cars I could find on Autotrader (USA). I was saying that why pay so much more for a car with a wing and a firmer suspension with a cool engine sound.
01-23-2018, 07:47 AM
#67
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Where aspirations are natural
Posts: 4,389
Likes: 0
Received 42 Likes
on
33 Posts
^^^Petevb was just explaining that the GT3 had more expensive technology in it warranting the greater price which was what I was claiming false. The price differential (60 grand), the two highest prices for both cars I could find on Autotrader (USA). I was saying that why pay so much more for a car with a wing and a firmer suspension with a cool engine sound.
01-23-2018, 08:13 AM
#68
Drifting
I don't use all the adjustability of my GT cars (currently GT4); I don't bother to time myself at the track; I don't push the car beyond what a GTS (Carrera or Cayman) could take. But sometimes you're just the sort of person who wants to own that one. I also ride bicycles. I ride a Bianchi Oltre with full Campy Record and carbon wheels, which means nothing to most of you, but it's the GT3 of race bicycles (except it's actually a race bike, so it's more like I'm street driving a 911RSR). Bianchi and everybody else make bikes that are just as fast (in my hands) and a good bit more comfortable and cheaper. But I like the shiny one with all the go-fast bits. I think it makes ME go faster because it's somehow inspiring to me to be on that bike. Like I have to live up to it, if that makes sense. Is it worth twice what another carbon fiber bike costs, as far as its inherently better performance? No way, assuming you're not making a living riding it. But sometimes you just want "the one."
01-23-2018, 08:28 AM
#69
Op,
I know its hard to test drive these cars. I would go to a local Porsche club track day and just hang out and talk to owners of their cars. We all love to talk about our cars. If you’re lucky you might even get to ride right seat.
I can tell you that either one will be great both on track and road. The 991gt3 has become so refined that it works great in every day situations. I would put it like this,
If you need a back seat? Get GTS.
If you love the sound of a NA high revving engine? Get GT3
The gt3 is a better track car. But still not a race car. The GTS is a better road car than the gt3 but is still awesome on track. And if you end up loving track time as much as I do you will end up buying a dedicated track car anyway.
Good luck.
I know its hard to test drive these cars. I would go to a local Porsche club track day and just hang out and talk to owners of their cars. We all love to talk about our cars. If you’re lucky you might even get to ride right seat.
I can tell you that either one will be great both on track and road. The 991gt3 has become so refined that it works great in every day situations. I would put it like this,
If you need a back seat? Get GTS.
If you love the sound of a NA high revving engine? Get GT3
The gt3 is a better track car. But still not a race car. The GTS is a better road car than the gt3 but is still awesome on track. And if you end up loving track time as much as I do you will end up buying a dedicated track car anyway.
Good luck.
01-23-2018, 09:03 AM
#70
I don't use all the adjustability of my GT cars (currently GT4); I don't bother to time myself at the track; I don't push the car beyond what a GTS (Carrera or Cayman) could take. But sometimes you're just the sort of person who wants to own that one. I also ride bicycles. I ride a Bianchi Oltre with full Campy Record and carbon wheels, which means nothing to most of you, but it's the GT3 of race bicycles (except it's actually a race bike, so it's more like I'm street driving a 911RSR). Bianchi and everybody else make bikes that are just as fast (in my hands) and a good bit more comfortable and cheaper. But I like the shiny one with all the go-fast bits. I think it makes ME go faster because it's somehow inspiring to me to be on that bike. Like I have to live up to it, if that makes sense. Is it worth twice what another carbon fiber bike costs, as far as its inherently better performance? No way, assuming you're not making a living riding it. But sometimes you just want "the one."
I think its interesting that Porsche chose to make cars such as the GTS and GT3, that are so different and yet are, for all intents and purposes, so close in performance (as has been pointed out in this thread). Its also interesting that both have sections in the owners manuals entitled "before driving on race circuits"
.These are cars that are designed to VMax on autobahns at over ~ 300kmh, they are track capable and not fragile
(although neither are "race cars"). I think the only item Porsche get worried about is the use of slicks on some models, due to the elevated G forces under brakes and through corners potentially leading to oil starvation.Of course, non of the preceding discussion would change the outcome of the title question - as has been said by most, it will come down to the driver.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-23-2018 at 09:24 AM.
01-23-2018, 10:10 AM
#71
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Where aspirations are natural
Posts: 4,389
Likes: 0
Received 42 Likes
on
33 Posts
Thats a very candid response and I think its fair to say that its common psychology for people to want what they perceive to be the best, fastest, lightest, most distinctive, different etc. If thats what makes them happy its far better to do that than compromise.
I think its interesting that Porsche chose to make cars such as the GTS and GT3, that are so different and yet are, for all intents and purposes, so close in performance (as has been pointed out in this thread). Its also interesting that both have sections in the owners manuals entitled "before driving on race circuits" .
These are cars that are designed to VMax on autobahns at over ~ 300kmh, they are track capable and not fragile (although neither are "race cars"). I think the only item Porsche get worried about is the use of slicks on some models, due to the elevated G forces under brakes and through corners potentially leading to oil starvation.
Of course, non of the preceding discussion would change the outcome of the title question - as has been said by most, it will come down to the driver.
I think its interesting that Porsche chose to make cars such as the GTS and GT3, that are so different and yet are, for all intents and purposes, so close in performance (as has been pointed out in this thread). Its also interesting that both have sections in the owners manuals entitled "before driving on race circuits"
.These are cars that are designed to VMax on autobahns at over ~ 300kmh, they are track capable and not fragile
(although neither are "race cars"). I think the only item Porsche get worried about is the use of slicks on some models, due to the elevated G forces under brakes and through corners potentially leading to oil starvation.Of course, non of the preceding discussion would change the outcome of the title question - as has been said by most, it will come down to the driver.
01-23-2018, 10:50 AM
#72
I don't use all the adjustability of my GT cars (currently GT4); I don't bother to time myself at the track; I don't push the car beyond what a GTS (Carrera or Cayman) could take. But sometimes you're just the sort of person who wants to own that one. I also ride bicycles. I ride a Bianchi Oltre with full Campy Record and carbon wheels, which means nothing to most of you, but it's the GT3 of race bicycles (except it's actually a race bike, so it's more like I'm street driving a 911RSR). Bianchi and everybody else make bikes that are just as fast (in my hands) and a good bit more comfortable and cheaper. But I like the shiny one with all the go-fast bits. I think it makes ME go faster because it's somehow inspiring to me to be on that bike. Like I have to live up to it, if that makes sense. Is it worth twice what another carbon fiber bike costs, as far as its inherently better performance? No way, assuming you're not making a living riding it. But sometimes you just want "the one."
This is so true^^^
There is a lot to be said about having that I almost own a race car with a license plate. Very few of us on here make a living driving GT cars. So Im in the camp want to feel like a racing driver.
I´m a lucky owner of a couple of RS car. My dedicated track car started life as 996gt3 but is so heavily modded that most people would hate driving it on the road. Its maintanded and serviced very close to that of a cup car.
I dont think you can run any car week in and week out on a race track doing DEs without taking on a more race focused maintaince approach. It will catch up to you one day.
A gt3 is more suited to track than a GTS but both will be fine doing some DE every now and then.
Personally I would love if they distanced the gt3 and especially RS a bit more from the regular 911 production. But, who am I to blame Stuttgart. They are making a killing selling all these GT cars loaded up with extras.
01-23-2018, 04:10 PM
#73
It doesn't surprise me to hear you say that. In fact didn't you get banned for repeatedly suggesting the S/ GTS was the best choice for everything? Or was it for something different? I didn't follow closely.
As you say horses for courses. Porsche designed the GT3 to be street-able and still capable of heavy track use. Light track use the Carrera will suffice, heavier track use and you should really be wanting the Cup's full cage, HANS, etc. As I said earlier most will find the GT3s upgrades unnecessary overkill, but they're certainly worth being aware of if you plan to actually track.
01-23-2018, 07:35 PM
#74
Not that Ring Times mean much to me or translate to much of anything in a real world sensory experience, but heres a list of Ring times. Porsche sitting at the top (GT2) like a boss. .2 GT3 gets a 7:12. GTS at 7:24.
Interestingly, the .2 S puts up a 7:34 while the .1 S is just 3 seconds behind it at 7:37.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times
To get an N/A flat six (GT3) with no power adders into the top 12, amidst cars with turbos on top of electric, much bigger motors, etc. is in my opinion the purest testament to how Porsche turn engineering into a symphonic art.
I really want that car.
Interestingly, the .2 S puts up a 7:34 while the .1 S is just 3 seconds behind it at 7:37.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times
To get an N/A flat six (GT3) with no power adders into the top 12, amidst cars with turbos on top of electric, much bigger motors, etc. is in my opinion the purest testament to how Porsche turn engineering into a symphonic art.
I really want that car.
Last edited by K-A; 01-23-2018 at 07:52 PM.
01-24-2018, 05:49 AM
#75
As you say horses for courses. Porsche designed the GT3 to be street-able and still capable of heavy track use. Light track use the Carrera will suffice, heavier track use and you should really be wanting the Cup's full cage, HANS, etc. As I said earlier most will find the GT3s upgrades unnecessary overkill, but they're certainly worth being aware of if you plan to actually track.
As a driver you have to understand the limitations of the car and those with mechanical empathy go a long way. The reality is to track a car you have to deal with maintenance, some cars more than others. The timing is irrelevant so long as you understand what you need to do and when you need to do it. In fact, despite all the rhetoric in regard to the GT3, its clear that E and F .1 series GT3 engines were/are letting go.......as has been reported over a significant period.
(1) You have to compare apples to apples to...Nbr
Chris Gebhardt GT3 (991 series 2) 7:18. MPSC2
Chris Gebhardt GTS (991 series 2) 7:24. Pirellis
Timo Kluck GT3 (991 series 1) 7:25 btw Timo Kluck is a works driver and Chris Gebhardt is a journalist
with regard to the S
Chris Gebhardt 911S (991S series 2) 7:34 - journalist
Timo Kluck 911S (991S series 1) 7:38 - works driver
Now, the difference between a works driver and a very good journo driver like Chris is about 8s per lap or ~ 1s per minute.
This would put the 991.1S ~ 7:46 about on par with the 718S, which achieved a time of 7:47 with Chris Gebhardt at the wheel.
You have to compare apples to apples to...Hock Kurs
Chris Gebhardt GT3 (991 series 2) 1:07.9 MPSC2
Chris Gebhardt GTS (991 series 2) 1:08.0 Pirellis
This has been widely reported and the facts don't change.
The 3.8l turbocharged GT2 RS is indeed, as you describe it "the boss". However that time (6:47.3) was laid down by Lars Kern and Nick Tandy (also works drivers).
(2) Porsche now have allocations opening up for delivery at the end of Q2 and allocations opening up in early Q3 for delivery in Q4 (depending where you live). HYC.
Non of this changes the response to the OPs original question, which keeps coming back to the same answer - they are so close, the result is dependant on the driver.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-24-2018 at 10:09 AM.