177mph

Not part of what the OP asked - but what about resale?

I would think the GT3 wins there for sure....

R_Rated

If you keep the GT3 revs up then all this talk about power delivery, etc is nonsense. Drive the car the way it was meant to be and the GT3 will out power and out handle the GTS on a road course.

If you can handle a GT3, or GTS, or base ay even 7/10th's though then you are awesome.

I'd be more worried about which car you can live with the 90% of the time you aren't tracking - you may very well be fine with the GT3 on public roads; I would if the top came off. Also, focus on improving your time on the track and not competing with other cars or people unless you are getting paid to do so. People competing with others often lose focus and cause accidents.... Sounds like you're new to tracking. Either car is likely too much car for you if you really want to learn how to drive.... just being honest. Get a 10K Boxtster, 944 or 2K miata to start and track prep it. I know you didn't ask this. Starting out, get a car that is somewhat within your budget of a disposable car. You'll have more fun - even in the 2K miata. I know I'll likely get flamed for this post but find out who the instructors are in your local PCA and buy them a beer to discuss the merits of what I said. Thank me later.

Taffy66

The GTS i drove at Silverstone had PDK,PDCC and RAS but no PCCBs..I never saw much advantage for the PDCC but the RAS is transformative and makes the car much quicker on track although at the same time making it easier to drive and much less challenging..Based on this i chose RAS but omitted PDCC for my own GTS with the one regret of not going with PCCBs'
If i had to choose a perfect spec GTS now and based on my personal experience it would be a 2WD with RAS and PCCBs but leave out the heavy creaky glass roof..Cross country you would have to be really on it in the GT3 to shake off a well driven optimum specced GTS..
I would probably choose foldable bucket seats as well although i believe these are unavailable in the US due to lack of height adjustment..

sampelligrino

Agreed. The Turbo has in recent times (gen 991) has come under more fire than the 993, 996, and maybe 997 generations from what I can recall (likely from non-owners ), but it is still one of the ultimate 911s. It's only knock IMO is that it does things too well, yes maybe a bit surgically without much effort, but it is one hell of a Swiss (German) army knife. Sure it doesn't scream like a GT3 but not everyone wants that, and it has killer looks (CL wheels, aggressive design and intakes, very wide body, retractable wing) without being as over the top as the GT3. It's a comfortable, luxurious daily driver and is likely great on the track as well. People knock the Turbo and even the 991.2 Carreras but they are selling (sure, maybe not quite as much as before), and people seem happy with their turbo'd 911s. Not everyone thinks their car just sounds like a Dyson and lusts for a NA engine, or drives their 991.2 longing for the 991.1/9A1 motors.

Valvefloat991

If he said that, he was wrong. Acceleration comes from torque at the driving wheels. More horsepower, properly geared, will ALWAYS produce more torque at the wheels.

Yes, the GTS has more torque at 3000 rpm than the GT3. But if you're accelerating out of corners at 3000, you're running two or three gears higher than you should be.

sampelligrino

I would be clear that your strong opinion is just that - your opinion based on what you want/look for in a car It comes up a lot knocking the turbo'd cars

Two family friends have Turbo S's (991.1 cab and 991.2) and could not be happier when I'm chatting with them geeking out over their cars. These guys have owned 911s for quite some time and believe the Turbo to be as good as it gets, they don't want the in your face looks of the GT cars or loudness of that engine when just driving around town and to work, want the top of the line 911 with all options (not a Panamera), and are racking up the miles on theirs. They do not track their cars (no track in Hawaii). They drive to and from work every day enjoying their coffee and Burmester - fast. Drive to nice dinners, everywhere. Suspension is great, car looks great. They both want the 992 Turbo S when it's out.

What's funny is that the Turbo owners I know are really quiet about their cars and keep to themselves unless asked, and just enjoy their car. They aren't on Rennlist but just enjoy what they have... no complaints on sound, or "too surgical"! And these guys have the purchasing history to get on "the list" for the GT3 @ MSRP and just don't care for it.

The world will not end when all 911s are turbo'd. go on YouTube and listen to McLaren's MP4/4 (the most dominant car in Formula 1 history), guess what it's turbocharged (2.5 bar!!!) and sounds absolutely amazing to me. So it's not a matter of turbo as much as engineering the right sound and Porsche will get it down/is doing a fine job of it...

snake eyes

The Better Driver....
I've passed cars Im not suppose to on track days...

Rather have the GT3 any time of the week or even a Cayman GT4 over the .2 GTS but Im just a 991.1 S owner loves NA power.

Petevb

As many have mentioned over a single lap the two will be very close on equal tires. The GTS's softer setup favors bumpy tracks, the GT3's setup will likely excel at very high speeds (downforce), quick transients (tight double autocross moves, etc) and cope with stickier than stock tires better. Subjective experience aside I agree it's hard to see the value in the GT3 when looking at fraction of a second differences in lap times.

Of course there are a couple different reasons to care about lap times. Many will use them as a measure of how capable a car is even if they rarely if ever use the available performance. Others will intend to actually use their car on the track. If that's the case there are big objective differences between the GTS and GT3 to keep in mind- enough to justify the price difference to some. Most of the differences have to do with additional adjust-ability and durability built into the GT3 that mostly come into play after that first lap. Most of this isn't obvious until you start poking under the hood, where the GT3 gets:

• Adjustable swaybars- valuable for adapting the car to conditions and different or worn tires.
• Provision for track alignment - the ability to dial in significant additional camber for performance and reduced tire wear and the ability to corner weight.
• Additional engine cooling capacity- extra center radiator, higher flow ducting for longer sessions and consistent performance in all conditions.
• Additional brake cooling- extra ducts front and rear to improve pad and rotor life and increase maximum brake capability.
• External dry sump- insures engine oiling on sticker tires and banked corners.
• Hundreds of components beefed up for track use- suspension arms, uprights, local chassis strengthening, etc.

This last one is perhaps the most surprising for the uninitiated because there's no obvious performance benefit. However the GT3 gets a near complete revamp of nearly all suspension components mainly designed to increase longevity at the track. Take the front upright for example at the bottom of the post. The GTS's is on the left, the exact same part used in the Boxster, Cayman and other 911s- it's compact, light and perfectly serviceable. The GT3's on the right, on the other hand, shows many differences based on Cup car and race experience. The main bearing is mounted more rigidly, the upright itself is very different to distribute loads differently and reduce stresses. The lower wishbone attaches in a stronger double-shear arrangement, the bearing gets cooling, etc. None of these changes will be felt over a single lap, but all contribute to additional longevity for the GT3, and these types of changes are found throughout the car (and suspension components used on the track do "time out" and need to be replaced before they become unsafe, so these are safety related as well).

All of these changes mean that Porsche feels comfortable explicitly extending warranty coverage to a GT3 used on the track (as long as it's maintained properly), something PCNA doesn't do for other models. It also goes part of the way to explaining why Porsche can and does charge significantly more for GT3s despite the fact that they are only marginally faster at best. You'll know if you're the type of driver that's going to benefit from the changes; for the majority of customers they will be overkill and unnecessary.

One final note- in my personal opinion it's a bit criminal to order a GT3 fully loaded. If you're of the "more is better" mindset I'd steer you towards a Turbo, which will be faster still (but doesn't get the GT3's special bits).

GrantG

If money is a concern, I also think the answer is GT3 (find a way to find the extra price of entry), as the resale value will be much stronger...

oceancarrera

As pointed out above by PetevB, yes the GT3 has bits and pieces of the 997 GT3/GT2 suspension parts in a whole I would categorize as a ( Porsche's track pack) extras.
Remember that the original part that is being replaced with track components stays at the factory except for the tiny radiators here and there.
All your info is impressive but I believe the GTS is a capable track car. I don't believe it will 'fall off' greatly in a medium duration type race. I don't know how long it would take for the brakes to fade without a 'vent'. Caster/camber setting matter but really 60 thousand dollars worth of value?

GrantG

I know you said both cars loaded, but a GT3 has every performance option included at $143,600 (PCCB is debatable on this issue). Definitely no need to spend $60k more. If you compare PDK vs. PDK-S, the GT3 is only $19k and change more...

Taffy66

I agree fully with this..As i've driven both flat out on track and own a 991.2GT3 having sold my 991.2GTS in the process..The bare bones GTS with manual,steels,no RAS and Pirelli P Zeros can't hope to compete with a similarly bare bones GT3..The 380mm steel brakes all round are great brakes without spending on the PCCBs..
The other notable major difference is that the PDK-S on the GT3 has lighter,stronger and smaller gears resulting in a 7 speed close ratio box with no overdrive top which is much more suitable for continuous track use..The no-options GT3 is fantastic value if you've secured one for list..Here in the UK new well specced GT3s (circa £130k) are currently being flipped for £190-£200k.

Petevb

I'd say no. However I'd be more inclined to agree with post #11's accounting. I'd also say the adjust-ability is just one of many differences, both subjective and objective.

There are essentially zero 997 pieces. It's all new for the 991, much of it shared with the 991 Cup.

I get your point, though not so tiny, ie...



I tend to agree. On a hot day I suspect it would lose some power due to heat-soak of the engine, but overall this stuff will be minor and certainly not a condition most will experience. However every one of the GT3's upgrades exist to address issues uncovered tracking the Carrera over an extended period. The GTS might never fade its PCCB brakes, but keeping them cooler will help them last longer and reduce running costs. Running track camber will similarly reduce tire bills, as will adjusting balance with swaybars to reduce under/ oversteer.

The GT3 was built for heavy track use. If you don't track heavily the GTS will likely be fine (though fingers crossed on certain warranty claims). If you do track heavily most will be better off with the GT3. Another consideration: the GT3's suspension parts were changed because at some point the stock parts broke. How much would it cost for one of the most sophisticated race organizations on the planet to thoroughly test your street car and upgrade every part that's likely to fail if you track? What's that worth coming over the kink on the main straight at Laguna with concrete on both sides? If you're never going to be in that situation it's worth near zero. If you are it's something to ponder.

NoGaBiker

Outstanding point, and one of the main reasons that when I own a Carrera I track occasionally and half-heartedly, and when I want to track more often I use a GT Division car.

oceancarrera

Well maybe you guy's are right when you dig deeper into what each cars capability had been engineered to do. I see the value in a semi-race car against a street car. I confess I didn't know Porsche did so much to make it so great.