Porsche again sets new records for deliveries
#31
Personally, I think Porsche have taken a step in the right direction - the 992 looks pretty good to me, there are plenty of satisfied and indeed happy .2 owners out there, the new direction has been accepted by most of the market place (991.2 sales on par despite global declines in sports car sales and 718 sales are actually up). Moreover, Porsche live to fight another day producing good all round sports cars.
The NA guys needn't lose sleep - plenty of CPO and used NA Porsche sports cars out there to satiate that appetite.
If any of you follow the FIA WEC you will have noticed that Ferrari won the manufacturers GT trophy followed by Ford - these races are governed by BOP regs, yet the two teams powered by turbocharged engines came 1st and 2nd. Porsche do not like to lose. At some point the need to win will kick in. Unless the regs change I suspect there will be ramifications for road legal NA GT cars.
The NA guys needn't lose sleep - plenty of CPO and used NA Porsche sports cars out there to satiate that appetite.
If any of you follow the FIA WEC you will have noticed that Ferrari won the manufacturers GT trophy followed by Ford - these races are governed by BOP regs, yet the two teams powered by turbocharged engines came 1st and 2nd. Porsche do not like to lose. At some point the need to win will kick in. Unless the regs change I suspect there will be ramifications for road legal NA GT cars.
Personally, as an enthusiast, I don’t count China sales as a plus in terms of what satisfies myself or most U.S sports car enthusiasts (I’d wager even EU). If something is built for and selling especially well- or better (than it used to) in China, that’s almost always (if not literally always) a bad sign to me. That’s just me. Of course, for Porsche’s bottom line, Money is money. Perfect example is a 718. China probably loves it. America, despite its amazing performance, gives it big thumbs down. My tastes are in line with the American market preference.
You mention the decline of sports cars. We all have theories as to why, but to me, it’s no coincidence that the sports car decline (at least in non-China markets) really picked up steam as soon as sports cars started being catered to the Chinese market. Cars got faster, more isolated, less quirky. “Better,” on paper, sure. But to me, not as much “gotta have it” and I feel that’s ultimately what hurt, or stagnated sports car sales (why get a sports car that feels like a fast sedan, when they’re making sedans- now SUV’s so fast? Used to, it was because of their unique sense of occasion, even lack of hushed refinement and practicality).
The 992 will be a performance marvel. No doubt. That’s so expected, it won’t even impress us anymore (seriously, .2’s already perform so well, who’s going to buy a new 911 simply because it knocks a few tenths off?). Most happy .2 owners will love it, I have little doubt. But can it bring the rest of the “us’s” (outside of China), i.e the 1/3 (in U.S) who immediately stopped buying new 911’s after mid 2016, back into the fold?
In that respect, I think it’ll be the most important 911 since the 996. A lot is riding on it.
Fortunately for Porsche, there isn’t much in the way of stiff competition. But I’ve recently started to get interested in Vettes (I’ve always hated Vettes), and considering my Porsche bias, it’s not a good sign for them, as I know I’m not the only one.
On the other hand. If the 992 doesn’t do great, and 718’s continue to decline in U.S, then they’ll probably just give China our allocations and we won’t really see them being sold out here in the future AS much. Leading into free range to go 911 Hybrid then EV without a fuss, as China market doesn’t hold our nostalgia for classic 911 visceral elements, and Porsche have a long brand milking roadmap they can exploit out there. That’s a sad reality, and I don’t hope it gets to that. But the 992 will hold the truth.
#32
Rennlist Member
their tastes + efficiency/low CI/mandatory FI requirements will likely put the 911 onto a path of another soulless digital rocket on wheels. .2 fans will probably be fine or happy, while .1 and previous gen fans will feel even more disassociated, and there are a ton more of “us” (the latter).
You do see the extraordinary irony in the above, do you not?
A 991 Carrera (any 991 Carrera) arguing as "us," the purist? There's a long line of 997, 996, 993, 964, and torsion-bar 911 enthusiasts—not to mention 930, 964T, 993TT, 996TT, and 997TT drivers—who would have a field day with this. Or those 991.2 enthusiasts who also drive 356s, 914s, 912s, 914s, 944s, etc.
Yes, I am pokin atcha a bit, and in good humor. A lot of what you say is something that is same as it ever was, and your 991.1 was a stop along a curve that began long, long before the first 991 rolled out the door. People complained about the refinements in the 356B, and Car and Driver ran an op-ed that stated the 911 SC was the end because it was as far as the 911 concept could be taken. Ahem.
You mention the decline of sports cars. We all have theories as to why, but to me, it’s no coincidence that the sports car decline (at least in non-China markets) really picked up steam as soon as sports cars started being catered to the Chinese market. Cars got faster, more isolated, less quirky. “Better,” on paper, sure. But to me, not as much “gotta have it” and I feel that’s ultimately what hurt, or stagnated sports car sales (why get a sports car that feels like a fast sedan, when they’re making sedans- now SUV’s so fast? Used to, it was because of their unique sense of occasion, even lack of hushed refinement and practicality).
The 992 will be a performance marvel. No doubt. That’s so expected, it won’t even impress us anymore (seriously, .2’s already perform so well, who’s going to buy a new 911 simply because it knocks a few tenths off?). Most happy .2 owners will love it, I have little doubt. But can it bring the rest of the “us’s” (outside of China), i.e the 1/3 (in U.S) who immediately stopped buying new 911’s after mid 2016, back into the fold?
The 992 will be a performance marvel. No doubt. That’s so expected, it won’t even impress us anymore (seriously, .2’s already perform so well, who’s going to buy a new 911 simply because it knocks a few tenths off?). Most happy .2 owners will love it, I have little doubt. But can it bring the rest of the “us’s” (outside of China), i.e the 1/3 (in U.S) who immediately stopped buying new 911’s after mid 2016, back into the fold?
#33
Personally, I think Porsche have taken a step in the right direction - the 992 looks pretty good to me, there are plenty of satisfied and indeed happy .2 owners out there, the new direction has been accepted by most of the market place (991.2 sales on par despite declines in global sports car sales and 718 sales are actually up). Moreover, Porsche live to fight another day producing good all round sports cars.
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#34
Race Director
Point being that the buyers market is also fluid and changes just along with products (in this case 911's). Any company chases future sales and it's buyers. The generations and sweet spots for 911 customers keep moving along just like our age
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
The kids being born today, might not even put any emphasis on driving aspects we're such huge fans of today.
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
The kids being born today, might not even put any emphasis on driving aspects we're such huge fans of today.
#35
Point being that the buyers market is also fluid and changes just along with products (in this case 911's). Any company chases future sales and it's buyers. The generations and sweet spots for 911 customers keep moving along just like our age
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
#36
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Archimedes
While I think they took the best step forward they could in the direction they were pushed, if you remove the GT3 deliveries from the 2017 sales numbers, the core 911 sales are actually down in the U.S. year over year. There were a lot of GT3s delivered in Q4.
#37
Rennlist Member
Point being that the buyers market is also fluid and changes just along with products (in this case 911's). Any company chases future sales and it's buyers. The generations and sweet spots for 911 customers keep moving along just like our age
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
The kids being born today, might not even put any emphasis on driving aspects we're such huge fans of today.
Current buyers in their 50's-60's now won't even matter in 15-20 years and so on ..
The kids being born today, might not even put any emphasis on driving aspects we're such huge fans of today.
Exactly. Porsche isn't marketing to us oldies, just as BMW wasn't doing that when Chris Bangle took their cars in a 'new direction' and all the BMW fanboys screamed. They were looking for new customers to bring into the fold. And while that marked a dramatic turning point in the direction of the company, they survived and came out the other end just fine. Always have to keep looking forward.
But isn't it possible that decreased sales/production of non-GT 991's may be part of the plan. Presumably Porsche makes more profit/unit on the higher priced GT3 than it would make on a base. None of us knows the actually capacity of the plant, but if it's fixed, wouldn't it stand to reason that they'd concentrate on the filling the extraordinary demand for the GT rather than lesser models. Extrapolating that the non-GT 991.2 is a sales failure (disclosure, I have one) seems like a reach. Maybe they make more profit on a non-GT 991 in China than they do in the US and ship more there? The point is that none of us has any solid data regarding Porsche's inner workings. Bunch of guesses, many of which seem to be pushing an agenda. The doom of the 911 seems to be the mantra of a few vocal individuals on this board.
I suspect the real changeup will come with whatever follows the 992.2...now that will be interesting. What I see so far for 991.2>992.1 is shades of 996.2>997.1. Same greenhouse and basic unibody with new outer bodywork and some "minor" changes sure to upset purists such as screens instead of gauges. It's VERY rare that we see a truly big leap in the 911's progression. In fact, the only truly big one I can think of was 993>996. And, in that case, the spec sheet was kept awfully similar...
#38
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This is all speculation:
There is a waiting list in the UK for any 911. Why? Because they cut supply when the pound dropped. Porsche makes less money per car than elsewhere.
Allocations for any 911 are actually pretty thin on the ground in the US. Why? Because Porsche built on average almost 300 GT3 per month for US/Canada from September-December and with GT2RS and GT3RS 1/3 to 1/2 of 911 sales look to continue to be GT cars in America. Funny enough, no one on the GT3 Board is saying wait and get a 992 911 instead of a 991 GT car. That says something.
I have no idea what sales are like in China. Is it like Europe where there are cars available and no ADM on special cars and everything at MSRP? Anyone see what the profit is in euro based on the value of the yuan? In HK a 911 C2 with no options is $250k US. In mainland China is is $205k US. Some of that difference may be accounted for by taxes, but that China is buying so many at those prices shows the demand.
Porsche is not stupid, they shift production where they make the most money while not completely abandoning markets and while keeping up with regulations.
In the US they are selling every GT3 they make and a lot of them at significant additional markups for the dealers so for now they make more GT cars. . Macans are still selling well even though it has been out a while, the new panamera is doing well and the new cayenne should do well too. So what if no one wants a 718 in the US, send them to China and build more 911 (same manufacturing line). The real problems for Porsche and fuel economy and emissions. They have a plan for that too. They are pushing the hybrids hard and the mission E which if it is as successful as I think it will be, it will be a huge fix for fuel economy averages (at least under current calculations). The issue they have is emissions. Short of diesel style particulate filters, NA motors are not going to pass and those I can’t see fitting in a 911 and I personally believe the 991.2 GT3 and GT3RS are the last of the line. And even the 3.0 turbo will he pushed hard under new regulations. 992 will therefore likely have a hybrid option. And while we all love 911, Porsche is now a full line auto manufacturer. The days of the 911 being what it was and sort of is are coming to an end.
There is a waiting list in the UK for any 911. Why? Because they cut supply when the pound dropped. Porsche makes less money per car than elsewhere.
Allocations for any 911 are actually pretty thin on the ground in the US. Why? Because Porsche built on average almost 300 GT3 per month for US/Canada from September-December and with GT2RS and GT3RS 1/3 to 1/2 of 911 sales look to continue to be GT cars in America. Funny enough, no one on the GT3 Board is saying wait and get a 992 911 instead of a 991 GT car. That says something.
I have no idea what sales are like in China. Is it like Europe where there are cars available and no ADM on special cars and everything at MSRP? Anyone see what the profit is in euro based on the value of the yuan? In HK a 911 C2 with no options is $250k US. In mainland China is is $205k US. Some of that difference may be accounted for by taxes, but that China is buying so many at those prices shows the demand.
Porsche is not stupid, they shift production where they make the most money while not completely abandoning markets and while keeping up with regulations.
In the US they are selling every GT3 they make and a lot of them at significant additional markups for the dealers so for now they make more GT cars. . Macans are still selling well even though it has been out a while, the new panamera is doing well and the new cayenne should do well too. So what if no one wants a 718 in the US, send them to China and build more 911 (same manufacturing line). The real problems for Porsche and fuel economy and emissions. They have a plan for that too. They are pushing the hybrids hard and the mission E which if it is as successful as I think it will be, it will be a huge fix for fuel economy averages (at least under current calculations). The issue they have is emissions. Short of diesel style particulate filters, NA motors are not going to pass and those I can’t see fitting in a 911 and I personally believe the 991.2 GT3 and GT3RS are the last of the line. And even the 3.0 turbo will he pushed hard under new regulations. 992 will therefore likely have a hybrid option. And while we all love 911, Porsche is now a full line auto manufacturer. The days of the 911 being what it was and sort of is are coming to an end.
#40
Instructor
Remember seeing this piece with someone from PAG after the whole BREXIT thing passed.
Said individual stated that since GB was no longer part of the EU, PAG would not be able to keep the same arrangements in place as it pertained to financials and orders... as it would negate the purpose of the EU benefits to those whom have elected to be members.
I'm paraphrasing but it was clear, there we're going to be negative consequences.
It was reported that this disposition was echo'd by the by other German car Manufactures.
I think the other BREXIT shoe has finally dropped...
Said individual stated that since GB was no longer part of the EU, PAG would not be able to keep the same arrangements in place as it pertained to financials and orders... as it would negate the purpose of the EU benefits to those whom have elected to be members.
I'm paraphrasing but it was clear, there we're going to be negative consequences.
It was reported that this disposition was echo'd by the by other German car Manufactures.
I think the other BREXIT shoe has finally dropped...
#41
I suspect the real changeup will come with whatever follows the 992.2...now that will be interesting. What I see so far for 991.2>992.1 is shades of 996.2>997.1. Same greenhouse and basic unibody with new outer bodywork and some "minor" changes sure to upset purists such as screens instead of gauges. It's VERY rare that we see a truly big leap in the 911's progression. In fact, the only truly big one I can think of was 993>996. And, in that case, the spec sheet was kept awfully similar...
It feels like the 992 is going to be the standard bearer for the next couple gens of 911, so I'm curious to see what the future is going to look like... if it feels and drives like a 911 should then Im happy
#42
Originally Posted by OC 991
Remember seeing this piece with someone from PAG after the whole BREXIT thing passed.
Said individual stated that since GB was no longer part of the EU, PAG would not be able to keep the same arrangements in place as it pertained to financials and orders... as it would negate the purpose of the EU benefits to those whom have elected to be members.
I'm paraphrasing but it was clear, there we're going to be negative consequences.
It was reported that this disposition was echo'd by the by other German car Manufactures.
I think the other BREXIT shoe has finally dropped...
Said individual stated that since GB was no longer part of the EU, PAG would not be able to keep the same arrangements in place as it pertained to financials and orders... as it would negate the purpose of the EU benefits to those whom have elected to be members.
I'm paraphrasing but it was clear, there we're going to be negative consequences.
It was reported that this disposition was echo'd by the by other German car Manufactures.
I think the other BREXIT shoe has finally dropped...
I wonder if the whole RHD has any impact?
#44
Rennlist Member
IMO (and I could be way off) this feels like a 993 to 996 jump (aside from the exterior) from what I have seen. The interior spy shots look vastly different from the 996, 997, 991 progression akin to what the 996 interior looked like comparing it with the 993. Additionally, this is the first time that I can recall that the regulatory environment is putting external pressure on Porsche to make big changes (not the typical Porsche/internal pursuit of efficiency/performance) where it feels like they are being forced to adapt rather than wanting to adapt, but maybe I am showing my youth here. So the 992 is quite a mixed bag for me and I am waiting to see if Porsche will knock it out of the park as a response, or struggle a bit. Especially if the hybrid powertrains come.... we would be looking at a very different interior + very different powertrain which be a major change for 911 enthusiasts since the late 90s with the 996.
It feels like the 992 is going to be the standard bearer for the next couple gens of 911, so I'm curious to see what the future is going to look like... if it feels and drives like a 911 should then Im happy
It feels like the 992 is going to be the standard bearer for the next couple gens of 911, so I'm curious to see what the future is going to look like... if it feels and drives like a 911 should then Im happy
The 997 was essentially a 996.5—Porsche did a REALLY good job of disguising the fact that the 987 and 997 were really an update on the 986 and 996. The 981/991 was the first clean sheet since 1996/1998, just as the 986/996 were the first clean sheet since 1964. I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll see another clean sheet until the 992.2 is done. Will be interesting to see what that means for the 982, but my guess is that we will have a 982.1 and 982.2—with no 981.2.
And good on you for being open-minded. That's the best way to enjoy Porsches, imho. People who hated the 914 (for whatever reason) missed out one a great car. Ditto for the 986, and 996. But some folks like what they like, and that's cool too.
#45
You would know better than us, but I thought autoblog and some of those sites posting the spy photos the past year all said it's a new chassis for the sportscars under VAG umbrella. I don't remember the acronym MLB or something - similar to the new panamera (I think I read it right that Porsche is lead engineer for this combined chassis) while the new cayenne is under the new engineered chassis by Audi?
Edit: I looked up a Total 911 article and it said new chassis is "rumored" to be shared with lambo, Audi for R8
Edit: I looked up a Total 911 article and it said new chassis is "rumored" to be shared with lambo, Audi for R8