911 Carrera T
 

https://jalopnik.com/the-2018-porsch...911-1819755457

Bit of a yawner. Marginally lighter with some unique options.

“Power is rated at 370 horses and 339 lb-ft of torque from the 3.0-liter twin-turbo flat six. The T gets a variety of nice tweaks from across the range, including Sport-Tex seats, a rear seat delete option, a new interior package, grey mirror covers, and the 20-inch wheels off the Carrera S.�

Wonder if rear seat delete makes it to US market?

Major yawner.

All I can say is.....I told you so back in April. :)

Your info has been strong. Best source on 991 GT forum outside of 918 owners.

Not even the 918 owners knew this one.

Why wouldn’t it? That makes no difference for crash ratings.

Exactly what I predicted. Sticker kit version of the base car. What a waste of time on the part of Porsche.

Luckily it wasn't detuned from the base model, same hp at least. Wonder if the included options will justify the price increase. :evilgrin:

wish it had NA motor :/

Buyers walking into a Porsche showroom are going to have an interesting choice. A 991T at 370hp vs 718 GTS at 370hp.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ing-14410.html

Full buckets available!

Less is more – the new Porsche 911 Carrera T
With the 911 Carrera T, Porsche is reviving the puristic concept behind the 911 T of 1968: less weight, shorter transmission ratios from the manual gearbox and rear-wheel drive with mechanical rear differential lock for an enhanced performance and intense driving pleasure.

The new model’s unique appearance is based on the 911 Carrera and its engine delivers 272 kW (370 hp; Fuel consumption combined 9.5 – 8.5 l/100 km; CO2 emissions 215 – 193 g/km). The 911 Carrera T – at Porsche, “T” stands for Touring – also boasts several other equipment features that are not available for the 911 Carrera, including the PASM sports chassis as standard, lowered by 20 mm, the weight-optimised Sport Chrono Package, a shortened shift lever with red shift pattern and Sport-Tex seat centres. The rear-axle steering, which is not available for the 911 Carrera, is available as an option for the 911 Carrera T.

Every aspect of the equipment in the 911 Carrera T is designed to optimise sportiness and deliver lightweight construction: The rear window and rear side windows are made from lightweight glass and the door trims feature opening loops. The sound absorption has been largely reduced. The rear seats have been omitted along with the Porsche Communication Management (PCM), though both are still available on request at no additional cost. The result of the lightweight construction measures: At an unladen weight of 1,425 kilograms, the two-seater is 20 kilograms lighter than a 911 Carrera with comparable equipment.

The 911 Carrera T will be available from January 2018 and can be pre-ordered now. In Germany, the price will be EUR 107,553 including VAT and country-specific features.

A sporty design and unique appearance

The design of the 911 Carrera T highlights the emotionality and sportiness of the coupé with rear-axle transmission. The body parts and wheels function as clear differentiating elements. At the front, the 911 Carrera T features an aerodynamically optimised front spoiler lip, and the Sport Design exterior mirrors are painted in Agate Grey Metallic. From the side, the new model is easily recognisable thanks to its 20-inch Carrera S wheels in Titan Grey. The “911 Carrera T” logos represent another distinctive feature at the side. The rear view is characterised by the slats in the rear lid grille, the Porsche logo, the “911 Carrera T” model designation in Agate Grey and the sports exhaust system provided as standard, with centrally positioned tailpipes painted in black. The exterior colour options are Black, Lava Orange, Guards Red, Racing Yellow, White and Miami Blue, as well as the metallic colours Carrara White, Jet Black and GT Silver.

A puristic interior concept and new interior package

The appearance of the passenger compartment also has a sporty and puristic emphasis. The driver enjoys black, four-way, electric sports seats with a seat centre in Sport-Tex fabric, while the headrests feature a “911” logo stitched in black. This new Carrera T model also comes with the option to choose full bucket seats for the first time. Steering actions are completed via the GT sports steering wheel with leather rim, and the mode switch provided on the steering wheel as standard allows the driver to select different driving programmes. The shortened shift lever with shift pattern in red remains exclusive to the 911 Carrera T. The decorative trims on the dashboard and doors are black, as are the door opening loops. A new addition is the T interior package, which creates an even sportier look with the contrasting colours of Racing Yellow, Guards Red or GT Silver. These colours can be used to add visual accents on various interior components, such as the seat belts, the “911” logo on the headrests, the door opening loops or the centres of the Sport-Tex seats.

Improved weight-to-power ratio plus enhanced performance

The six-cylinder flat engine with a displacement of three litres and twin turbocharging generates an output of 272 kW (370 hp) and a maximum torque of 450 Nm, delivering between 1,750 rpm and 5,000 rpm. The weight-to-power ratio has been improved to 3.85 kg/hp, ensuring enhanced performance and more agile driving dynamics. Thanks to a shorter rear axle ratio and mechanical differential lock, the 911 Carrera T can sprint from zero to 100 km/h in 4.5 seconds – 0.1 seconds faster than the 911 Carrera Coupé. The model reaches the 200-km/h limit in just 15.1 seconds. Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) is also available as an option on the Carrera T, enabling the vehicle to reach 100 km/h in 4.2 seconds, and 200 km/h in 14.5 seconds. Both transmission variants enable a top speed of over 290 km/h.

Consumption data

911 Carrera T: Fuel consumption combined 9.5 – 8.5 l/100 km; CO2 emissions 215 – 193 g/km

911 Carrera: Fuel consumption combined 8.3 – 7.4 l/100 km; CO2 emissions 190 – 169 g/km

Anyone switching out their GT3 Touring for a 911 T?

No? :D

Not sure the point of this except to emphasize we’re nearing the end of the 991.2 series...

It's like the Black Edition of 911's...snore.

Haters. I like it.

Ok. After reading I gotta say, sounds like the best version of the regular (non-GT) 911 range....

LWB bucket seats (unavailable on anything other than a GT car otherwise), manual trans w/shorter throws, SPASM suspension lower 20mm, mechanical rear diff, and some nice cosmetic bits especially on interior that would otherwise only be doable at high cost with Exclusive. cool.

Put another way, this is what the base 911 should have always been. Despite less power, with a manual, buckets, SPASM and rear diff, this will probably be the most entertaining 911 short of a GT3 to wind out and run through some of your favorite twisty roads. Too bad they couldn’t just toss in the old NA engine from the 991.1 GTS!

Still, though, the naming confuses it with the GT3 Touring.

gotta also point this out:

For the same or less money, I’d take a GT4 or 981 Spyder every day of the week. Better handling, just as good looking inside and out if not better looking, and most importantly, that wonderful wonderful wail of a natural aspirated high revving flat 6.

Used GT4s and 981 Spyders with low miles that are CPO (even with the bucket seats and other good options) are selling for right around the $100K mark, the same as the base price for this new 911T.

When the 718 GT4 and Spyder come out in next year with probably a detuned 4.0 NA flat 6, they’ll be priced similar to a well optioned 911T and again, will be far more engaging to drive and will hold their values far better long term.

The side decals look really dumb.

Meh

I guess when you get down to it, this car is the answer the to the question, “if you had to buy a modern 911 as a purist driver’s car, and you couldn’t afford a GT3 much less a GTS, and you also have something against the GT4 and 981 Spyder, and if you also can’t possibly consider buying a used 991.1 anything (or none of those are available to buy anywhere anymore)...”

Well, if all that were true, then yeah, the new 911T would be the car for you.

People, you do realize one can even buy a 991.1 GT3 Used CPO (like a 2014) for similar money as this new 911T with some options?

guess people want the stick? al la R?

Not really. You're around $130k min for a CPO '14 GT3. And no manual option.

Where do you see LWBs as an option. Those are 18 ways in the picture.

press release confirms bucket seats are optional on the 911T.

911T is manual or PDK. Sure, for folks who want manual, a used GT3 might no be of interest. But that makes it even more clear how niche a market the 911T is made for (who would want the PDK version of it?!)

even ideally configured (buckets, manual), it’d Still be less interesting than a GT4.

Also a Porsche for people want a drivers car, but don’t have the time or dealer connections to land an allocation for GT3/GT4.

Playing that game does get tiresome.

ya, a GT4 over this marketing gimmick is way, way better buy.

Right, but a 911 is a 911 and a cayman or boxster is not. New GT4 and spyders will have the same ADM game driving up the costs.

The NA ship has sailed, but otherwise this is pretty much the 911 everyone has been asking for. Value package with the common performance options including stuff you can’t get on an S or even get without a 4. Sport chonro modes without the wart. Add some lightness without megabucks CF and mag. LWBs and rear seat delete and radio delete and ditches the hideous silver interior trim for black. I mean even a shorter final drive.

Given that the engine is the same internally base to GTS eventually someone will figure out how to add a power kit ($6k) to the base (hack the ECU) and you have a very fast car for $50k less than a GT3 which will weigh less and be faster than an S or a GTS. Hell, there is absolutely nothing stopping porsche from offering a power kit directly once production of the 991.2 ends so it does not poach S and GTS sales. The parts are the same (new turbos) it’s just the ECU tune that Porsche won’t do on a base.

The real interesting question is what demand and supply will look like for this car. I think demand will be really strong. There are a lot of disappointed would be GT3 (especially touring) buyers out there and it is a lot of car for a lot less. It will be interesting to see if the standard 911 discounts can be had on this model as it is much more attractive proposition for the enthusiast crowd.

Looks like a street-focused version of the GT3.

The Touring is still a GT3 track-focused machine but with diffferent cosmetics.

Isn't this car like the "mini-me" version of the 911R?

Actually, the poor-man's "mini-me" version of the 911R.

I like it. Not every car can be, or needs to be, a GT. What's not to like?

manual gear box
sport pasm, -20mm
mechanical locking diff
short shifter
lightweight glass
reduced sound deadening
shorter rear axle ratio
rear stearing

The only negative might be the turbo engine but Porsche has been making turbo cars for a long time. It's also likely $50k+ less expensive than a GT3. It's not a GT3.

Every car including the GT2RS on down is a marketing exercise. What does that mean?

Everyone is crying for more driver's cars? What should they build?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...abd47abfc9.jpg

I like it. If I were going to buy a 911 and $ was a major concern, this is the one I’d buy.

Will 918 owners get first dibs on these special cars?:rolleyes:

J

One of these with an NA engine.

A true drivers car is three things. Manual, NA, lightweight.

They only really accomplished one of those, and then made a feeble stab at reducing a dozen pounds of weight.

Seems to me the poor man’s GT3 touring which was the poor man’s 911R.

None of them will want one. Buy as many as you want. A dud here.

You forgot available LWBs, rear seat delete, radio delete, and sport chrono wart delete!

I would be willing to bet that it has the most demand of any non-GT 991.2 in the short and long term.

Could be. That’s not saying much for the 991.2 Carrera’s which have yet to match 991.1 sales in the USA. 991.1 values have actually gone UP since they went turbo on the 991.2 Carrera.

Why wouldn’t they offer this in the GTS or S models??

Unfortunately no modern Porsches are lightweight. Turbo cars do have a torque advantage. I suppose the car should be air cooled as well.

I'm sure this isn't Porsche's attempt to make an ultimate cost no option drivers car. I think they've made a drivers oriented narrow bodied 911.

Put some snow tires on this and it would be a great year round driver.

I would have to delete those decals though.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1b82e77951.jpg

Porsche marketing is getting ahead of itself. The product should speak for itself. The overhyping and marketing mumbo jumbo is getting a bit tiring.

If it has LWBs, manual, SPASM, RWS, and PCCBs as options, it could be pretty cool. For a turbo car at least.

I think some of these options may not be available on US models.

Come on. Everyone needs to market a product. What exactly are they overhyping here?

Look at the GT2RS marketing. You'd think they were having a hard time selling those things.

It would miss the point of the exercise. Lightweight base model with go fast kit. Sport classic may be the next special edition and that should be based on an S or GTS. That being said, LWBs may become available as an option across the range like they did at the end of the 997 era. Of course, that assumes Leer can make enough to satisfy demand. Some crazy percentage (well over a majority) of GT3s are ordered with them.

Other than 6MT/NA, what more could we ask for in the model? A 911T instead of 911 Carrera T badge?

It’s just the same old repetitive script with a different story line.

Overhyped and under deliver the product, or under deliver the supply.

The aggressive price increases are going to start hitting a ceiling. The turbo Carrera’s and 4 banger 718’s aren’t getting much love in the US.

Attachment 1263051

They put out 2 videos the day they reveal it whereas the gt3 touring has had only 1 video since its reveal over a month ago

Need more gt3 touring videos

I am having a little anxiety, that when I get my GT3T it will have a 991T motor in it by mistake
J

Bingo. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
If all else fails.. then yes, its the best base 911 you can buy. But, why would everything else fail?

And Let’s not forget the competition from other manufacturers who are actually working hard to produce great competing products at much more aggressive prices.

US press release.

Not much new, but confirms LWBs for US and mandatory rear seat delete with LWBs. No mention of radio delete.

http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=1053

Meh.

And still there is no viable replacement for my 991.1 Carrera S that porsche will let me buy.

Smart on Porsche's part. Gets the M3/4 buyer who wants a 911 but is too stubborn to considering anything but an S (or better) behind the wheel of what is essentially a base car, and makes them feel proud about it (not that there's anything wrong with a base 911).

GT3s available at $15-25k over. It’s only money.

Not in the UK my friend, allocations appear fewer than for the 991.1, they're all gone, **** people are being told wait a year for a Turbo S.

I love my car but I think I might sell it before the 992 announcement and move on.

Note shorter gearing = torque multiplier, plus 450Nm @ 1700rpm, so you have SPASM, RAS and PTV in a car thats lighter than a 991.1 GT3.

Add MPSC2N1 and I think this car may surprise a few people. Short gearing and loads of torque is the winning recipe used by rally cars. It'll be great in the hills and twisties.

For a lot of people this car will make sense.

I like it, a lot.
A base Carrera lightly modified to have some fun. And a great car for young people who would like a first brand new 911.




And black calipers too :roflmao:

I like it. I always liked the base carrera best besides the GT3 in the 911 lineup. All versions in between I consider waste of money. Well, "the base" just got "base-ier" and better from a drivers perspective ! What's not to like ? Nice job !

Ah. No such thing as ADM in the UK I suppose. The weak pound must be causing Porsche to cut back on allocations to the UK.

Agree that shorter gearing is a torque multiplier and is a great thing. However the GT3 has even shorter gearing than the 911T, which gives the .2 GT3 more functional torque than the 911T.

Also the 911T is not lighter than a 991 GT3 if ordered with the same equipment as the radio is considered standard on the GT3 but is not standard on the 911T. Also the 911T weight is calculated using the manual for the base weight. You specifically mentioned the 991.1 GT3 which is PDK only, if you compare the 911T to the current 991.2 GT3 with a manual, the 911T is clearly heavier.

Turbo engines are heavier than NA engines and always will be.

It's likely a factor, they could sell a lot more GT3.2's now, but if Brexit happens and the pound goes sub-euro they may not have as many repeat customers, so why not build loyalty in expanding markets.

Yes! I said it first :D In the other thread that died.

I dig this car. Thank God they are making 6 gear 911R type cars for the masses.

Still going for Gt3 Touring (heart is set). Infact this makes Gt3 more luxurious car (it has interior door handles). Lol!!!

Very interesting car nonetheless. Price point is excellent

So if the MT is essentially the same 7 speed as the rest of the Carerra lineup, how many people would rather have this car then pay a few thousand more for an S?

I think it woukd make more sense if it were priced closer to the base version or had the 6 speed GT manual which with LWB would make it a more unique Carerra spin-off.

limited numbers, going to have flipper problem again !!:jumper:

I'm a fan. I agree it's a bit of a tough sell with 991.1 GTS, GT4, and Spyder in the same price range. But if I was looking to order a new 911 that wasn't a GT3, this would be it.

Do I dare dream that they would make a Targa version? :icon107:

So which is it: 10 mm or 20 mm lower?

I think this is a good idea by Porsche this model.

I have been seeing, lately, a lot of chicks driving a base 911 these days.

Who is to say this is being marketed just for men.

Some of these gals would love a car like this .

I like this 911T.... a pure no frills 911 (from the current parts bin obviously). It's good to have choices. I really enjoyed my standard .1 manual Carrera2 on & off the track so I can only imagine how this new little fun one would be.... with a standard ltd slip diff too. Plus now that you can add sport buckets w/ automatic rear seat delete.... nice!

If I didn't have a .2 GT3 now, heck... I'd be tempted to order one of these T's.

But now I just noticed it will be priced 10% higher than the base carrera and almost about the same pricepoint as the S. So why on earth would you take the T ?

Like it. If I did not get a GT3 Touring allocation I would be looking into it.
Maybe very few people will buy it and the numbers will be so low that in 20 years it will be a collector.

End of life stripper model.
Should have called it RSAmerica and cheaper. You know, simple, half baked.

Heritage....
 

:thumbup:

And these days every person thinks RSA worth billion dollars - I almost bought one in 2010 for 30k but decided it was too slow...

I went in to put deposit on gt4 RS the other day - Dealer told me no chance and offered this 912T thing and said it was car I could actually get on list for - meh I said

15 years from now Porsche may conclude that this moment in time when new GT cars "appreciate" and 918 owners got them all was the moment they could point to that killed the company

997.2 RS you could have walked into dealer purchased and driven home - and you'd sell for 20% loss when done with it

Supply and demand matched

Print out 10000 GT2rs and GT3 stop making these base cars that in this hot economy nobody wants and end this silliness

+1 How do they expect to survive when new blood is not injected?
If porsche won't sell me a GTx car.. than I will move on and never look back.. Lot's of living to do outside of porsche world.

I think the only miss on this car is that they should have dialed in 390-400 HP, less than the S but more than the standard Carrera. It's a little too expensive for the standard Carrera engine given that the price will go up even higher when optioned w/ LWB and RWS. For a parts bin special one could do worse.

It's exactly how I was speccing a standard 911 but represents better value and has some nice unique finishing and the availability of LWB. Complete WIN IMHO!!!

So this is a funny thing. The 991.1 PASM was an option, it is now standard on a 991.2. So:

Reference height 991.1 no PASM
PASM 10mm lower
SPASM 20mm lower (10mm lower than PASM, SPASM is standard on GTS and 911T)
GT3 25mm lower (5mm lower than SPASM)

RSAmerica would have been the perfect name for it, and it would help pull the wool over our eyes a bit more so we could get a bit more excited about this thing. I still can’t believe they have two 911’s which they gave the name “Touring� to within a month of each other

I agree it's a winning choice IF one is specifically looking for a low 100-110k spec.... here's my example below of my recent ex- .2 Carrera2 and then compared to a similar build on the new 911T.

As you can see, the difference in price is not overwhelmingly large but the difference in standard 911T equipment is significant since the 911T gets standard, PSE, SPASM, Ltd Slip diff, and a few more goodies otherwise either optional or completely unavailable on a standard Carrera. I even added Sport Chrono and in red on the new configuration.

I truly enjoyed my base 370hp Carrera on & off the track... so this new 911T is for folks who share a similar formula or recipe as I did. On my 991.2 I even bought that SPASM's front splitter from Suncoast and installed it myself.... if I kept the car, I would have added the short-throw shifter too (which is btw standard on the 911T). So this new T is an entry level pure no-frills 911 but now with an ample dose of performance-oriented components in a unique Touring pkg. Can't lose IMO... especially if you're able to negotiate a fair discount on a new 911T. That's my 2 cents....

The builder is showing no rear seats even with the standard seats and an option to delete the light weight glass. It is also showing an option to delete European Delivery. They must still be tweaking the builder but it doesn't look like NA will miss any of the options.

i have an s with SPASM i think, the one with the button, by default it's 10mm lower, push the button and it lowers a further 10mm, which might be why we see 10mm & 20mm

On the UK configurator you can add Rear Seats as a zero cost option though not with the Lightweight Buckets.

No add PCM and US release does not mention radio delete so my guess is that is the one we don’t get.

If the US-configurator is accurate, the radio delete is standard on US-spec and the addition of Full Buckets automatically deletes rear seats (I believe this is worldwide for the deletion).

Below is a build example I personally would like to do on a 911T..... I like how you can, for the first time, get buckets in a mundane 991. :D

1st of your links = ... including the PASM sports chassis as standard, lowered by 20 mm ...
2nd 0f your links = ... This includes the PASM Sport Suspension with a 0.39-inch (10 mm) lower ride height ...

PantsFire:

I thought pushing the button on a SPASM optioned
vehicle does NOT effect the ride height. It's always
at 20mm lower, regardless if you push the button...
or not! The button does change the 'active damping'
characteristics of the shocks.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6c121ac753.png

Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale

I like this. If I'm honest with myself, I can't see myself seriously tracking a 911 GT3 enough to make it worth it. A driver focused car that goes back to the spirit of a 911 (and that isn't the subject of more threads about value than driving) may be just what the doctor ordered. NA would have been nice though...

+1. Hopefully this frees up more GT3 allocations for track toys.

That pic is a ROW car as evidenced by the missing center headrest plugs in the seat. US also has the requirement for backup camera therefore radio delete is not an option.

I can see regarding the radio delete as unavailable for US-spec due to backup cam requirements... but even the current US configurator for the .2 GT3 still has that same missing headrest cushion on the buckets. The Confusiorator continues to have the same bug.... not 100% accurate. So I'll presume the 911T's render will continue to be missing that same piece...

The 991 doesn’t have air suspension. Ride height cannot be changed by the push of a button.

Sport PASM (SPASM) is 10mm lower than PASM at a fixed height.

No requirement that backup camera display has to come through the radio screen.

Correct. By why would Porsche use different camera displays (mirrors for example) when they already designed the PCM to accomplish that feat throughout.

Damn. One of the press articles I read last night said it was coming with a 6 speed manual and I went to sleep with builds running through my head. Then I saw the website today. 7 speed. Bummer.

The 911T is due in March; the NHTSA rear camera requirement does not go into effect until May. Theoretically early builds - like with the 991.2 GT3 - could have the option to delete the PCM.

hmm, I was always a big vague on that button having bought the car secondhand

I push it on smoother roads like motorways when I'm going at higher speeds, it could be just psychological or wind resistance pushing the car down a bit but it feels lower :D

The radio delete cubby is $115.

https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/SKU9X1RRS.html

I think you have to flash the ECU to tell it there is no radio, but all in it should be cheap enough if you really want radio delete to replicate post-sale.

I agree this is a good idea to bring some potential M4/C63 buyers into the 911 family, but IMO a well-tuned analog suspension like the 987 and 987 Spyders would have gone a long way towards making this a truly unique and desirable 911, reinforcing the 'less is more'/RS America this car is trying to portray, and it would have lowered the weight (and price) a bit more as well.

A lot of manufacturers do it with a smaller screen on cheaper models, or in the mirror like you said.

They're using the radio delete in their US marketing too, probably one of the ways they get down to that advertised weight number. Keeping the screen just for backup cam seems silly. Curious to see how this is handled...

Surely someone has specced a GT3 with radio delete, for 2018 delivery, and can give us some more insight on this?

I think radio delete is available on GT3, many people aren't getting their cars until late 2018. Hm.

Does the .2 GT3 come with a back-up camera

Yes, I read that PCM delete is not an option for North America.


Caption beneath the 3rd picture. http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...t-photos-info/

Interestingly this would probably be my pick of the litter (price no object) if I needed rear seats and I was looking for a street car.

Rear wheel drive adjust-ability
Street tires = progressive breakaway
Manual
Low boost = less lag, more responsive
The lightweight efforts over the base Carrera seem halfhearted, the sport suspension less so

As a driver's street car I'd likely enjoy this more than a Turbo, GTS, etc. Says quite a bit about Porsche's current lineup when you think about it. Kids...

yes and no. cars build before May 2018 will be offered w/ radio delete (mine GT3 is an April build and will not have radio). Afterwards, it can not be removed due to back up camera regulation in the US :rolleyes:

Is the "lightweight glass" (I presume lexan) even allowed to be delivered on US cars?

Yes, standard on U.S. cars, optional elsewhere.

I have no issue with Porsche adding as many variants as they want so I think the T is a good additional to the model range. I configured a T vs a GT3 as equal as I could option wise and the price difference is about $36K-40K. For that, I think the GT3 is a much better value as you will recoup most of that if not more on resale. I think the T is a great option if the GT3 is out of reach financially or simply due to demand.

You MIGHT recoup it on resale. That's been a recent development and by no means representative of residuals since the introduction of the GT3.

too bad you can't turn off the nannies. that would have made it more special. problem with non-GT cars is you can't turn off TC; only stability control to a point and even then, it still intervenes during hard driving.

Agree. Key issue for a supposed drivers car.

Agree with that, but real life impact of nannies will depend on calibration. For a road-biased car, for most people, I don't think it's relevant unless it intervenes unnecessarily.

Know what you mean, think this T will be a great fun car. But it very easy to get to just under 100k with a reasonable spec here in UK.

Not a whole lot more will get a ex demo GTS, that's got the wider body, centre locks and another 80bhp etc

No, I think this is real glass, the same as the one used for the GT2 RS.
Much better from my point of view.

Love this. No it’s not that different. Same engine, mostly part bin stuff etc. But what’s important is that a basic driver’s car is being offered. The shorter ratio gears is particularly awesome. They didn’t even do that on the GT4! Will be interesting to see how many take it. Hopefully a lot so they make more of these.

If I wasn’t in the market for a GT3 I this would be my choice.

I think it is great for people in that range. Issue is that I just configured a “super light t� and it was 120+ due to PCCB and bucket seats.

Really? Didn't realise that. That's a bit disappointing. Had thought this could be a nice car for road trips and some Ring laps, but a road tuned system would probably be way too intrusive on track.

Not necessarily... I tracked my .2 manual Carrera and it's the same engine & trans as in the 911T but no ltd slip nor SPASM nor the revised ratios. It held its own on the track vs. some higher powered cars. I turned off the nannies and was able to push relatively hard without unnecessary intrusion. Granted it's not a GT3-esque raw but for sure I believe the 911T will be loads of fun on the track as well. It's a street/backroad touring car first & foremost but with some occasional track use it'll be just as fun.

Here's my standard .2 Carrera giving the Limitless Motorworks Cayman Boss302 some fun on the tarmac... that V8-powered 987 puts out 424hp to the wheels. :D


I like this formula and as I stated before if I didn't have a GT3.2 now, then I'd order and personalize this new Touring model.

Basically I think the new 911T with the right options will be tons fun on or off the track... plus one should be able to negotiate & order one below msrp.

I want to like it but the 7 speed manual kills it for me. Certainly a lot to be said for an attempt at a "purist" or "drivers" car within the turbo-powered Carrera range. Makes sense to keep it turbo and leave NA for GT division IMHO. But it would need a proper 6 speed for me to want one, and outfitting it with one wouldn't step on GT toes like an NA motor would.

I like the specs but I hate the thought of paying more for less. Plus Porsche making a 29th variation of its 911 money maker gets tiresome.

$120k on a base manual is a lot. PCCB on a C2 probably won’t sell that well, or at least it would be tough sell around here and the street benefit of PCCB is mitigated a bit by the “brake dust Grey” color of the T wheels. Buckets on the other hand ....

Free color, buckets (including $910 for the mandatory alcantara wheel and shifter), fire extinguisher, autodim, and free smokers, leather dash and console trim is $110k which is solidly in average C2 money.

If I were ordering one for stock, this is what I would build.

http://www.porsche-code.com/PJ7GBLQ1

It takes advantage of the lower cost differential to get sport classic wheels on a T (popular since the 1 millionth) spends the $320 on SC so you don’t have to explain that it really has SC even though no wart .... and it is still under $112k.

The normal C2 stock MT for the lot build around here is 14way or 18way with premium and ventilated, (or premium plus which add even more cost), PSE, premium 20in wheels, sunroof, bose, SC, MF GT wheel and that is $108-115k depending on things like color (black, white, Silver or Grey sir!) and whether the roof is glass or not and whether it has 14 way or 18 way and premium or premium plus.

Well that sucks.

I don't know why Porsche put so much emphasis on the weight reduction for this model as it's not even really the point. This is a tuner model. It gives the base 911 access to all of the best performance options (some are standard and some are not) as well as access to the bucket seats outside of a GT3. This is the track car for people who can't get a GT allocation. You can buy the powerkit from suncoast for $5,750 and it's only a matter of time before there is an ECU solution for non S models (Porsche might even allow the ECU flash on the T):

https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/992X51.html

You could build a better GTS for less money with a T.

The weight savings is merely part of the equation, but while we are talking about it lets look at it:

All 911's have curb weight quoted as the base spec for the trim with the exception of the GT cars which are quoted with all of the lightest options. A 991.2 GT3 has a quoted weight of 3116 pounds. That includes PCCBs, full buckets, and obviously no rear seats. The 911 T quoted weight of 3142 lbs includes none of that but all of it is available. If you spec this car as light as possible you would lose 44 lbs for the PCCBs, 5-10 lbs for the rear seat delete, and just over 40 lbs for the full buckets. That puts you with an end weight of roughly 3048 lbs with a motor that is easily tune-able to GTS power levels and it will be cheaper than a comparable GTS or GT3.

I have specced a base Carerra T with just the lightweight performance options and it comes out to $117,780 as seen below. Obviously you would probably select other options as well but I wanted to keep it comparable to the base price for the GTS.

http://www.porsche-code.com/PJDETDI7

If you then add the powerkit from Suncoast at $5,750 you are at $123,530 + a cobb tune for $1200 (to unlock the power from the upgrades) which you may not even need if porsche allows the reflash of the ecu for the carerra T. If you don't want to install the upgrades yourself it would add an additional $3k for labour which is pretty conservative. You are looking at a $127,730 car AT MOST. A base GTS costs $121,750 (with destination) before you add PCCBs and you cannot get the full buckets at all. Once you add just PCCBs you are up to $130,270 and you still don't have the full buckets, reduced sound deadening, or lighter glass.

I was skeptical as well until I actually looked into this trim. It is PERFECT for someone looking for the most performance oriented 911 outside of the GT cars.

Where do you see porsche does weights based on no options spec for a Carrera?

You are assuming that the "S" power kit will fit the "non-S". Yes I see your caveat but still ......

I shouldn't say no options but no light weight options which has to do with the legal definition required by the US in quoting curb weights. The manufacturer must use the heaviest weight of expected options by %. Because the GT cars are distinct models and are often specced with lightweight options, Porsche can quote curb weight with those options. For all other 911 models they have to use the heavier weight options because they are most often specced that way.

Yup. My build hits just over $127k. A lot of coin for a base Carrera. If it had a proper 6 speed, I'd still consider one though given all the GT3 nonsense, but I did not love the 7 speed when I test drove one.

This is the issue.

My preferred T spec runs $126k, and while I might order that car, a .2 GTS I could live with (less interior frou frou, no PCCB) is $125k with so many of the same upgrades plus a lot more power.

I am presuming a discount could also be negotiated on a 911T... after all it's still a standard C2 and supposedly is not under limited allocations. I was able to reduce my ex-991.2 C2's 104k msrp down to 97k, for example.

But no LWBs. That's one of the big draws of this car IMO, and the fact that, if one is comfortable with the power level, you can get a car with those seats, SPASM, RWS, SC, PCCB and sport exhaust for about $125k is a bit compelling. Like I said, 6 speed and it would have been a very intriguing possibility.

Curious to know if RWS would be part of your preferred T spec...

I hear you. And, for someone who wants LWBs, I agree.

I test sat 981/991 LWBs vs 4-way Sport Seats Plus one last time before my GT4 order locked and chose the 4-ways. They fit my frame better and provide more upper body support than 981/991 LWBs do. They're also more adjustable, less expensive, easier to get in and out of in a car I drive daily, and were available with heat. They definitely give up something in "sense of connection and occasion," but I've never, not once, in 14,000 miles wished I had spec'd the LWBs. The 4-way Sport Seats Plus are one of the best Porsche street seats to date—up there with 1980s sport seats and 959S/RSA seats. And my T spec with LWBs would be pushing past $130k, at which point the GT3 MT is very hard to ignore at $144k.

But no two-seat 911 is for me in this season, as I need back seats for kiddos. And I prefer my 911s to have them anyway. You never know when they might come in handy, and they don't add much in the way of weight.

Nope.

While the 991's RWS system has become very, very good and adds noticeable stability under braking on the way into a bend while sharpening the car and "shrinking" its wheelbase...wait, why wouldn't you get it? Maybe you should. But I wouldn't on a Carrera-line car because time and miles in various press cars suggest the most fun 991.2 Carrera-line car is the simplest one, mechanically. I also like the challenge of balancing a 911 on the brakes on the way into a bend, and the "honesty" of non-RWS cars. That said, I think RWS is brilliant, in no small part because of how much happens at the back end of a 911. YMMV, and opinions are split even within Weissach. Not sure there is a right answer here, but I have little doubt that RWS will yield better lap times.

Thanks, Pete. Again our thoughts align; while I respect RWS, having grown up on air-cooled 911s it is the challenge of 'getting it right' that entertains me and keeps me coming back to them.

Interestingly, I did the same thing. Sat in both, preferred the 4 way SS+/18 way seats over the LWBs. My C2S has the 4 ways SS+. Then I bought a Spyder with LWBs because I liked the rest of the car. After driving in them for a while now, I prefer the LWBs hands down, and I have knee, leg, hip issues and wide hips. I don't know why, but the LWBs provide much better support and I don't get any aches from them, while my 4 ways start to make me ache after about an hour in the driver's seat. The LWBs are a nightmare to get in and out of and I don't think I'd DD them, but for a weekend car, they are fantastic. And I absolutely hated them when I sat in them at the dealership.

^ Really good perspective, and a sign of both how individual seating preferences are as well as the anguish one goes through in making this choice.

I've spent several thousand miles in LWBs and have zero complaints in terms of comfort—they are truly great seats, also—but my upper back and shoulders aren't wide enough for them, so cornering support is merely okay for me. At that point, 4WSS make more sense to me, and I have yet to do a 12-hour day in the car with any aches...something I can't say for the 18WSS, interestingly. I asked a seat engineer about this, and he said, "Ja, natürlich—the 18-way seats have more motors, so less padding!" (Or something like that.)

interesting how they put door pulls in this and not in the GT3... GT4 got them.

Agree that the 4 way sport seats plus are one of the best seats Porsche has ever made. For me as well they are far more comfortable than LWBs, and they happen to be free with the car.

Agree that the RWS is very good and does add agility to the 991 cars. I really felt the absence of it, when driving 991.1s or 991.2s carreras without RWS.
That said, I agree you lose some of the driving connection with RWS and I would prefer to have a shorter wheelbase like the 993s or at least the 997s.

Now make a 991 with a 718 Cayman s engine and name it the 912 and make it cheeper

Out of curiosity, why do people prefer the 6 speed to the 7? Doesn't 7 allow you to have more ratios and/or a top gear for highway cruising?

The final drive ratio has been modified to shorten the gears overall, so I would have that 7 speed and shorter gearing is win:win?

As interesting as that sounds from a purist perspective, I don’t think anyone would ACTUALLY buy it. You would have a lot of people making statements like:

“But if only it had an NA 6 cyl with same power I’d buy it�
“But if only they had also removed 200lbs of weight I’d buy it�
“But if only they allowed me to order lightweight PTS paint, I’d buy it�

But no one would actually.. buy it.

Spacing on the gates is odd. It's not identical to the 6 with just a 7th gear out to the right, and, at least on the older cars, the throws were longer.

I see no reason for this car and think it’s stupid. But, I also feel this way about the cayman and the Macan, so I am sure it will sell.

I am waiting for all the threads to start about why it’s better than the GT3, RS, R, and how they saved so much money.

This is Porsche continuing their push downmarket.

They could have easily put in a 4.0, completely stripped it out, lighter wheels, body panels, and components etc. and made a better version of GT3 touring and charged more than the winged GT3 and it would sell like crazy. Reaching the same hysteria as the R.

They want to move more units.

More people can afford $100K cars than $200K +.

Yes, only GT3, GT4 and RS' are able to turn off TC and SC; no nannies. in non-GT 911's you are able to turn off the SC, but it will still kick in and be somewhat intrusive in corners; even at say 80-90% or so. And TC is always on and very much active; but you don't know because there is no TC light on dash; but i have never been able to break the tires loose. i think they keep non-GT's and turbos safer for average joes to enjoy on the street. but for a driver's car, the T should have option to turn off to really be involved and control the car at limits.

fastmd it sounds like you’ve had too much money for too long. Not everyone can afford a GT3 or an R but maybe they still aspire to have a 911 with a bit more driver oriented setup. Why is this or a cayman stupid? If you want an R just go buy one.

I think this car and the cayman are stupid, correct. This will do exactly what Porsche wants, brilliant.

But under the guise of the more driver oriented spec, bs.

I don’t want an R. Was offered an R. I like my 911s with big wings.

I see they have already hit their demographic.

What was wrong with the base 911 as entry level?

I’d rather have a GT4.

I would also rather have a GT4 for the same money. I do think the T optioned up is about $10k high for what you get. My first Porsche was a Cayman and I loved it. A lot of people looked down on it because it was “cheap” and not rear engined. I drove a 997 and couldn’t see why the porpoising front end and higher price made it a better car. After having a GT3 and an RS I understand the charm of the rear engine 911 feel. But that doesn’t mean I can’t see the appeal of a base 911 with a little something special thrown in.

I dont think porsche was build on super expensive ultra high performance. I think of sporty, light, simple, durable. I guess I’m stupid all around.

No LWB and RSD, the stupid 5% higher than S/GTS final drive, no PTV aka an LSD, no SPASM, no RWS, sport chrono benefits required the wart (all Carrera its an issue).

Basically stuff on or available on an S plus the GT3 seats and chrono no wart. Porsche knew the base was a tune away from an S so they made a lot of stuff worse on the base to differentiate the S. The T ended that (minus the smaller steel brakes).

People that are looking for a “pure driving joy� experience vs a “daily driver experience� would end in the following 100-130,000 quandry

GT4?
Boxster Spyder?
911T?
GTS with a few miles?
997 GT3?

This car has the least Horsepower
This car has the worst gearbox
This car has the most depreciation waiting
This car has the least heritage
This car is turbo charged
This car has a warranty
This car has bucket seats available
This is a new model
The videos are pretty

If the next generation GT4 and/or spyder get a 6 speed manual option with lower gearing this time, and an NA engine with more torque than the previous versions, both of those would make for incredible drivers cars.

ok, C.J., just between you and me, on the DL, I need you to get me a GT3T manual allocation. Then all the above matters....

The 911 T
This car doesn't have an engine that may require a special guarantee or a manual gear box that dissolves third
This car is lighter than a 991.1 GT3
This car has shorter gears
This car has sports pasm
This car has rear axle steering
This car has PTV
This car has 450Nm of torque from 1700rpm (GT3 460Nm at 6000rpm)
This car is available with LWB
This car is a Carrera with a long, long lineage
This car is for fun

The videos are nice too - similar to your (CJW) video with DF on the 718 GTS driving the old Targa Florio route - remember the Carmine Red one, the one you forgot to add to your list :) Why?

Why?

The Carrera T is interesting you have a car for road ( with four seats you have a car for family and you can configure the car for more oriented performance ...) and a car car for begin some track day.

No manual in the GTS i drove... :(

Same argument applies-

The BEST AVAILABLE 718?
Or the PRICED WELL 911?
A USED GT3?
Or a LEASABLE 911?

Best of 2016 that does not dip down?
A new wrinkle from 2018 we have no idea about.

No rear axle steering, different driving experience? six cylinder twin turbo Vs 4 cylinder single turbo?

To get RAS etc you have to be in a .2 S or above, weight? seat?

Engine risk E, F, G - lawyer in the detail warranty? track abused?

Favourable terms?

It strikes me that the T may prove to be well placed for some buyers, svelte body, good gearing, plenty of torque and nice handling package. :)

Shame they did not give the 991 T the C2S 420bhp power, or make it an extra. Due to the torque advantage this would give have given a MT GT3 a good run, lap time wise......

Does anyone else think that the shorter gearing on this is a bit of an admission from Porsche?

Why would they need to make a 911 'more sporty'?

As a sports car, shouldn't the vanilla 911's be sporty out of the box?

I found the staged nature of that video a little awkward. Was hard to reconcile the CJ we see here on rennlist with the one frothing over alcantara seats. I also noted they referred to him as an ex baseball player rather than a flogger of their wares... :icon501:

Interesting - but
 

Why not just find a low miles 997 GTS if one would want a so to speak purist/driver enthusiast 911 version ?? Hmmm - It has reasonable weight, NA motor, sport exhaust, powerkit, 408HP, great suspension set up, widebody rear wheel drive, diff, classic alcantara interior, centerlocks, highly regarded handling and performance, really the last mechanical/somewhat analog 911.

I think the T just gets the S/GTS final drive ratio. I don’t believe it is more than 5 percent different than the base, but I have not seen anything published about the actual T final drive ratio.

Really interesting car that seems like it would make a great daily driver, but I just don't know that I can convince myself that I need 3 911s in the garage.

s it would be more challenging selling the many $ S and the $$ GTS variants ... Porsche wants to max total income and dealers want to max new car " sitting on the lot " unit sales volume since warranty work and annual maint service -whether a base or 991 Turbo S cab - pays for this ever growing now mainstream brand's staff and facilities

Fuel economy. Same reason we're stuck with vacuum cleaner engines across most of the line now.

^yes that.. But I would lean more towards Porsche trying to secure market share in China.. China will soon be the #1 market and all manufacturers know that.
Their middle class is going to clip 500 million people, very soon..

I do love alcantara seats. No exaggeration needed.

Most has been said, I fall into the "its an interesting car" crowd. A GT3 touring prices about 165-170K for most, I priced this sparsely but nicely equipped for 111K - that's a 50-60K discount. That's meaningful.Like most, I am bothered by the turbo.

The one thing I haven't seen on this tread (sorry if I overlooked) is the new wheel technology! Absolutely amazing! Porsche has figured out a way to revolutionize the typical GT car center nut with a new 5 nut system that you can change with any old torque wrench from Ace hardware. it requires no cheater bar, no pedal block, no friend, no chance of misalignment, a breakthrough in technology.

Haha... so true.. would be amazing if they gave the gt3 this amazing new 5 but wheel technology.

BTW, Sean and Mayur,

Will the T be allowed at the Smokies GT? T is half a GT.

Maybe if it has LWB?

Seriously. I love everything about the .2 GT3 except centerlocks. If I do decide to keep it really long term, like 10 years or more, I may convert the CL to 5 lug hubs like some of the 997 GT guys did.

I would not buy another GT car without centerlocks.

I love the overall style of the wheels, just not the CL themselves. If you don’t track much it’s not a big deal, if you do, I’d prefer wheels like the GT4, which have that GT style, while still being 5 lug hubs.

CL do not require any more maintenance than 5-lugs, even with heavy track usage.

They're also marginally lighter (about 200 grams), but still lighter.

Weight difference is marginal.

Fairly certain CL require more maintenance with heavy track usage than 5 lug hubs.

My main point though is that it’s easier to change your tires and brakes yourself with 5 lug hubs and you need to do that often if you track a lot.
With CL you always need someone to help you and the process itself takes a lot more time, every time.

I never change or torque my own wheels. I don't even own such tools.

Then CL are perfect for you.

Until the cost to properly service them comes along. Then owners say, "You want how much to service my lug nuts?"

you're correct, its even in the manual. There is no re-greasing/cleaning of lug nuts, and you don't have the grease everywhere when you're done!

911 T
 

Can't wait to see a 911 T at our little piece of heaven dealership here in Fresno! I love the idea of this car.. Return to simple. That's the way I remember Porsches in the 60s.

Now that I'm in my 60s I miss it. =)

r

I won't own the car by then.

What's everyone's opinion here, how will these cars me sold?

I am assuming there will be some discount to MSRP?

That works—carry on.

Are the standard brakes up for light track duty (10-20 events per year)?

Light duty for sure, though harder pads and more resistant brake fluid recommended. 10/20 events per year does not sound like 'light' track duty though.. :)

Watch this 992 shaped space......

We seem to be a little less precious about 911T in the UK. I’ve taken 3 orders over the last 24 hrs from guys that are coming out of boring stuff like M4’s etc and want to jump into something a bit more special that they can just drive and enjoy...But also leave at the station or the shops and not worry about it.
With the cease of production of Carrera and Carrera S models early next year, the ‘T’ makes perfect sense as an entry level swan song for 991.2, and gives back an element of what most purists have been squealing about for the last few years...
Of course there are those people that you will never satisfy, but ask yourself this...which would you rather drive...This or an M4, etc, etc...

Incidentally, My build is going to be a White manual, PCCB, buckets, PCM delete and rear steer...perfect!

Wasn't the GT3 Touring the Smart man's 911R?

sorry couldn't resist..:evilgrin:

Not if you're smart enough to get the R at MRSP :thumbup:

Not sure about U.K. , but in US not sure how you can compare an M4 to the T? Fully loaded m4 in the US is $75k, I played with the configuration with the 911 t and spec a few options (plus the requisite buckets) and you are $115k+. I dig the T but feel they missed the mark on price/value, car with buckets should have priced @ $100k mark. What do I know though, sure they'll sell a bunch of them and sounds like you're already getting orders

The perfect spec well done sir. Although that launch yellow looks good. Even with the white, are you going to get the yellow T interior to match your brakes?

Yes totally, price points are far apart.

Just curious but what’s the massive appeal of RWS in a supposedly back to basics purist(ish) car?

These standard steel brakes are not the same standard kit that's on GT cars or the GTS? Just curious if this car will require PCCBs for 20 events a year, not that I'd prefer the PCCBs due to running costs.

I don't see the wisdom of adding RWS or buckets to this car (in the US, anyway, where folding buckets are unavailable). You're carrying the weight of the rear seats without the ability to use them. Worse you're now in direct competition with the Spyder and GT4 below, cars that are roughly 25% cheaper.

The biggest remaining advantage Carrera T has vs its mid-engined siblings is that it drives like a 911, and the RWS is dialing that out.

I can see the buyer of a base Carrera T pretty clearly- someone who'd like to get a GT4 or Sypder but needs rear seats, PDK and/ or loves the rear engine experience. I can similarly see why many in that camp couldn't get a GT3T.

I have a lot more trouble understanding the buyer of a 111k+ manual Carrera T w/ buckets and RWS (availability of the alternatives excepted). I'd go for a lightly optioned Sypder/ GT4 or GT3T any day of the week.

I thought the rear seats were deleted if you specc'd LWBs, no?

Longer driving video here. Looks cool, but man that sound is bloody awful. I just couldn't drive around in a car that sounded like that.

You, me and most everyone else. If only you/we could get one...

I think as the modern 911's have gotten longer and longer they have become more stable but have lost some of that nimbleness of a smaller car. The RWS gives an effective shorter wheel base which makes the car really wrap around the corners. I wouldn't blame someone for wanting it to be simpler without it. One could argue similar things with locking diffs. Unfortunately we don't live in the world of 2000lb short wheel base cars anymore. No one could afford the legal defense costs.

Every test I've read that commented on RWS in the new standard Carrera's have raved about how much more nimble the car is. One of the GTS reviews I watched compared the cars with/without back to back and said it made a big difference in the ability to change directions and they would absolutely spec it.

If this thing weighed 200lbs less I think we'd have something, otherwise the weight difference seems negligible.

It handles better, and turns better, more enjoyable.. just like the 911R. Rear steering is now seen as a common handling enhancement.

Maybe there was a time when front steering was seen as not appealing in a back to basics purist(ish) car.

Just curious - Anyone know weight savings with LWBs and rear seat delete? And is it available in US?

The whole notion of "back to basics purist car" even one that is one "-ish" is silly.

How back to basics? No power steering? No ABS? No synchro MT? Enjoy double-clutching much?

That's pretty basic.

But it's certainly nothing like how I'd like or want my modern Porsche to drive.

Make the drive more involving, yes. But back to basics? That's just hogwash.

The Rear Axle Steering does not dial it out but reins it in so its more nimble under all circumstances. This is not conjecture.

I think you'll find GT3/GT3 RS owners and anyone that has experienced the poise of RAS under hard driving would disagree with you particularly as you can still feel the rear weight bias, have to manage it carefully under high speed transitions and gain the benefit of the superb traction out of corners.

Also for many, torque with power (that delivers loads of power under the curve) and shorter gearing is far better than power without torque and long gearing (along with a glass 3rd gear).

What exactly is the difference between “reins it in” and “dials it out”?

What language would you prefer? Improves transient response? Transitions faster? True and more, but traits traditionally associated with mid-engine rather than rear-engine cars. There is no question that a 991 GT3 feels far more “mid-engined” dynamically than a 997 GT3/ RS driven back to back. If that’s a good thing or not is a matter of opinion, but it’s a fact.

Not everyone, myself included, thinks it’s a good thing for all purposes. While I’d personally probably go with RWS on a GT3 (and I am, in fact) I wouldn’t want it on a Carrera T. I do debate if I’ll like it on the GT3 long term- it’s undeniably faster than a 997 GT3 RS, for example, but arguably rounds off a few too many sharp edges. For me, anyway...

On the Spyder/ GT4 topic it’s pretty easy to avoid the months with the 3rd gear issue at this point, btw.

Its a pretty big difference in my view - dials it out means its not there, whereas, reins it in means its still there but better controlled.

I can feel the rear end with RAS, it communicates its weight well and you can learn to use very well. At pace its like driving a waltz :).

If you want a top drawer corner carver, RAS is too good a gift to leave unopened. :)

AP did say they tried the R without the RAS and it drove like a truck. I can see the back to basics/give you more rear engine feel argument but I think I would take it anyway. Would be great to try them back to back.

While a lot of members on RL want the LWBs I don't think a lot of dealers will spec the car with them. Remember the launch 911 in 09 that came with a version of those back then. IIRC a lot of dealers had issues selling them and those cars sat for a while.

That was a very different car (997.2 C4S) in a very different time (2009; pre-Porsche-as-investment-vehicles).

One of the only reasons I’d even consider a T is the standard seats that come with it. They look by far the best as well as how it was meant to look. The space shuttle buckets look downright comical. And anyone who has the ability to thrash the car so hard and consistently that they physically exceed the capabilities of the standard seats and “need� the buckets (lol yeah right Mario) then they’re in the wrong car to begin with.

He says a lot of things. IMO that was 100% marketing; as a minimalist street car the 911R should not have had RWS. In my experience the advantage of RWS is the near elimination of understeer and with it the need for a lot of skill to drive a 911 quickly on track.

So you are classifying this "T" model as investment grade?

You're not the only one—there are chassis engineers within Weissach who don't love RWS, even on the hottest models. It's a bit like PDK again, coming down to personal preference on the "experience" despite recognizing the undeniable performance advantage.

I'm not sure where I fall on it. If I don't feel it working in an extremely artificial way (and I don't on the .2 Turbo or GT3s), I don't mind it. But I wouldn't have it on a T. In fact, I wish one could keep the LSD but delete the PTV...

On general principle I am opposed to additional complexities and gizmos, but the RWS has the effect of making the overly large 991 feel like a smaller and more nimble car and for me that outweighs the lost ability to play with the rear end, at least in the majority of driving situations that I deal with. FWIW when I was reading the section in 000 suggesting a modern Club Sport I thought the 370HP was not really enough because Porsche would never be able to take out enough weight to make the concept work. Back in '88 our local Porsche dealer had a white CS and it sat for months.

I don't classify any 991 models as 'investment grade'. I was pointing out that the landscape is very different now from what it was in 2009.

Great points, and I question the value of "drift-ability" in any of these cars for anything other than drift events and internet videos. Do it on the street and it's irresponsible...do it at a track day (at least, any track day I've been to) and you'll get black-flagged (at best).

Thought on the F22.2 was less about getting weight out to make the car faster and more about the principle of less is more and even the base 991.2 is already quick enough to be a joy. The T sure delivers on the concept—and remains with 370 hp. It will be interesting to see if it meets the original Club Sport's fate, but my guess is no. "Porsche" as a brand is in a very different place now than it was then, and the world seems to wait with baited breath for any model that might be considered "special" or focused, etc.

By the way, your alloy wheels on the F22.2 are far and away more attractive than anything Porsche offers currently.

Yup...in 1988 you could also find new E30 M3s collecting dust in the back lot of every So Cal BMW dealer...

Though rarely experienced, to me the difference at 10/10ths (which I can really only access at the autocross) is striking, though admittedly I'm convoluting generations (997 GT3 RS vs 991 GT3) with rear wheel steering. That said I need to anticipate and chase the 997's rear end far more, where the 991 tends to "do it for you"... right up until it doesn't and all hell breaks loose. It's a very different game on the limit, enough so that I wonder if I won't end up coveting my friend's 997 GT3 RS long term... even as I beat him with my 991.2 GT3T. We shall see...

Thanks!

They could so easily be offered by PAG. They are, after all, just 911-50 wheels with the spokes in one color (white, light silver, black, gray, etc). Only thing PAG would have to make is the 911-50 rear wheel in an offset for the NB 991.

Almost wonder if one of the custom forged wheel companies out there could reverse-engineer a pair of rears and make forged rears available as a group buy to match factory fronts—if the face geometries could be nailed it would be a great-looking wheel for NB 991s.

True, but you can have some fun sliding a car around a bit on the street without going into full irresponsible Chris Harris drift mode.

^^^
:thumbup:

I don't get the negative feelings for the T when it's been dialled in with nice options at a discounted price. With a GIAC chip produces @ 400 whp.

Pete, honestly I think you're over analysing this. :)

RAS behaves in a very consistent way - you won't notice it from a feel point of view (on track) but you will notice it from a turn in and speed through the corner point of view.

Basically, on the line it allows you to carry more corner speed as the wheels are pointing the same way through high speed corners.

In essence the limits are raised, because of this.

Nontheless if you overcook it (approach speed was to fast or over tightening across the line) - you will still reach the friction limit of your tires (contact patch) and if you breach it, spin.

Its is no different to any other Porsche other than the limit this occurs at is higher. The car is not doing it for you e.g. its not intervening.

randr,

This reminds me of your views on turbo-lag: that it's immaterial on modern cars such as your own. And for the way you drive that may well be true, but you'd prefer not to admit that for the way others drive there is an impact that can be significant.

Rear wheel steering is similar- if you're driving in such a way that you're not losing the rear end it's quite possible you won't notice a difference. If you are driving on and over that line, however, the difference is substantial. I'll try to explain why:

First, rear wheel steering does not inherently increase the grip of the car or the rear tires mid-corner. The rear tires don't know or care if rear wheel steering is angling them by a degree and a half relative to the car or if the whole car is rotating by a degree and a half. From their point of view the effect is identical: they are operating at 1.5 more degrees of slip angle to the road.

From the driver's point of view these two things are different however. The car without rear wheel steering is rotating slightly, which the driver experiences as mild over-steer, while the car with rear wheel steering's rear end is more faithfully following the front. Both cars have the same absolute cornering limit, but one is much tidier getting there: no need for the driver to subtly unwind lock to counter the mild over-steer, etc (what I mean by the car "doing it for you").

Many drivers will never realize the difference or go past this point, but let's consider what happens if you do. Wide modern R compounds peak in grip beginning around 4 degrees of slip (depending on the surface, etc, etc), after which they fall off. Without rear wheel steering it's relatively intuitive: you're feeling two degrees of over-steer, so your seat-of the pants lets you know you're roughly halfway there. With rear wheel steering, however, the system is masking that same slip: you're still half way to breakaway yet you feel almost nothing. This is much of reason some feel the feedback is non-linear and artificial.

From a simpler perspective you've got around 4 degrees of warning before you're chasing the tail of the car in a non RWS car, and that's nearly cut in half to 2.5 degrees with RWS, with some of the early warning feel drivers cue on masked by the system.

Hopefully you can see from the above how when driving within the tire's limits with system could feel great and predictable (and be less work for the driver) while violently approaching and exceeding the tires limits could feel like a different ball-game.

Like most things RWS is a trade-off. It has huge benefits in transition- it takes time for a non-RWS car to adopt the required tail-out attitude before it can generate the same grip, then more time to gather it up and go the other way. Thus RWS cars are far quicker in initial corner-entry, slalom, etc, and don't get subtly "out of shape" nearly as much. As mentioned they are also easier (or at least less busy) below the limit, with the RWS taking care of much the correction the driver would otherwise need to.

The above is obviously a theoretical explanation. The proof is in the driving experience, however. If you ever spin, or nearly spin, a 991 GT3 back to back with a 997 GT3 RS (ideally on the same tires), I feel certain you'll easily feel the difference in the way they communicate before breakaway from behind the wheel. I find it far from subtle, no analysis beyond "what just happened?" necessary. I'd expect most drivers would hit that "nearly spin" zone where it's easy to tell around twice per pass at the average autocross if they can carry nationals level pace.

So again, I get that you might not notice the difference. Just don't assume that means there isn't one.

I get what Petevb is saying. What I’m concerned about is essentially losing half of an already narrow “seat of your pants� sense of when you’re about to lose it. The only payoff seems to be for really ridiculously awesome drivers who want/need to go very deep, very often, into that very narrow window trying to milk an extra hundredth of a second out of it or whatever.

Ok cool for them. I guess, despite that few if any of these dealer bought street cars will ever truly be raced by professionals who could even in theory earn more than they spend on doing so but whatever. Anyone whose really that good wouldn’t ever buy one of these for that anyway; they’d be driving something WAY better and more expensive, paid for by teams and sponsors in the first place.

But for 99.Something percent of all T/S/GTS/GT3 drivers, even including hard core trackers who crave the razors edge and have no issue with risking balling up a 100-200K car in a tire pile in search of that hundredth of a second in turn three, I’m still not seeing the advantage:risk-cost return, and that’s saying nothing about the IMO even more important and essential (from a driver’s perspective) loss of half of the “seat of your pants� feel, especially for what is marketed and extolled as a “driver’s/purist’s� car in the first place.

I’m still trying to learn about this. But for now I see it as a huge net negative that provides an on paper lap time advantage at the cost of feel and fun and even safety until you get uber awesome at it at a level few ever will.

So from that perspective, it seems like the main/only reason to spec it in a car like this is because the next buyer will either grossly overpay for it or that you’ll be disproportionately punished for not speccing it (either way).

Interesting discussion. I think you will get that tight turning sensation with RWS more often as a normal driver than you will feel that last little bit of warning at the limit of over-steer. The feeling with RWS is not artificial, is real mechanical change.

What about an LSD? It is a mechanical devise built into the car to alter how it drives and feels. How is this different from RWS? One should argue that an open diff is better because it allows you to better feel the inside wheel start to spin up without a more sudden loss of traction typical with a locking diff. A locking diff is "artificially" directing power to the outside wheel the same way RWS is altering the effective wheel base of the car is it not?

^ Great point. Was thinking along similar lines with PTV, but your example is purer.

What makes a mechanical LSD from a computer-controlled system different from RWS or PTV is repeatability. The driver learns what the mechanical item will do, as that's the only thing it can do if it is functioning correctly. Ditto for similar mechanical driver aids, such as toe correction, etc.

Systems like PTV or RWS introduce another "brain" to the equation, one that can make decisions on the fly in concert with other computers and systems and thus may not offer "perceptionally" similar repeatability, at least as far as the driver is concerned. Poor calibrations can make these systems seem distant and/or unpredictable to the driver—and some of BMW's electronic aids have been among the worst going all the way back to its early TC. Fortunately, Porsche's systems are usually VERY well calibrated, so as to feel "organic" and very predictable in use. The best ones hide themselves—you don't know they're at work...the car just feels great. Many PTV setups are that good, and I'd put RWS in there as well.

There are people who like both high-tech cars (991.2 Turbo, for instance), and people who pine for a modern 911 that follows the CGT method: less system, more materials technology with modern techniques. I like both. However, adding RWS to the T moves it more toward the 991.2 Turbo, which seems a bit outside the ethos that attracts me to the T. YMMV...

I definitely see what you are saying about the desire for a more simple car with less brains ;). But I think the RWS is a fairly repeatable system. I don't believe is adjusts for anything other than steering angle. If it tried to drive the car better than you (adjusting for yaw angle, traction control, temperatures) I think it would be much more intrusive. I do think that I've felt it strange on occasion in a corner when increasing speeds cross the point from turning in to neutral rear steering angle.

I'm curious why Porsche made it an option on this car. They didn't have to. I can only come up with they thought that the shortened wheel base feeling on tight twisty roads added to the overall feel of the car (or they just want more money). I would love to hear Jethro B's opinion of both after watching his 996 video.

I remember reports when in first came out suggesting if you were sliding in oversteer the rears would not steer

Can I ask a dumb question. I get why RWS helps in slow tight corners - helps rotate the car. And why it helps with fast lane changes. But it’s not obvious how it helps with fast corners. Can anyone explain?

^^ Slow corners the rear wheels steer in the opposite direction to the front wheels whereas in high speed corners the rear wheels and the front wheels turn in the same direction.

mmm I didn't say RAS gave you more grip - I said it allows you to exploit the grip you have at higher speeds relative to a vehicle that doesn't have RAS.

Draw the vectors, a 997 GT3 rear wheels will track away from the apex whereas with RAS equipped cars the rear wheels will track towards the apex (in a high speed corner). The difference is significant - if both cars are at the same speed, have the same tires and with the same widths. In the RAS equipped car, the contact patch is under less torsion and the lateral shear stress is lower at the contact patch surface interface. Thus the RAS equipped car can go round the corner at a higher speed before the limit of the tire is reached.

I see two reasons to keep it optional:
- Lower base price.
- Lower base weight.
If I'm correct, the RWS system weights something like 20kg.

I personally would order a Carrera T without, just because I'm not a good enough driver to need the additional performance on track, and I think that the simplier a car is, the better it is to improve yourself.

I think I see where you're going off track.

Let's talk about slip angle first. Every tire must slip (both laterally and longitudinally) relative to the road in order to generate grip. Wider width, shorter sidewalls and fewer groves all reduce the slip angle before maximum grip is achieved, so slip is going to be far more obvious in a 50s racer with bias ply tires than a modern LMP1 car, but both are slipping substantially. At a professional level every tire's slip angle is quantified with charts similar to this:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8918ca3f6e.jpg
As you can see, no slip means no ability to provide lateral force.

Now let's look at what this means for the car. We know the tires need to slip by ~4% relative to the road to provide corning force, but how is that achieved if they're pointing straight? The answer is simple. They're not:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5d88eb59c1.png
As you can see above the entire body of the car adopts a slip angle. In a dirt circle track racer that slip angle can be ridiculous, and in a hot-rod 912 with tall skinny 185 R compounds only marginally less so: I've competed in a car that made peak grip at 12 degrees of slip, and it's a blast! In both cases it's obvious that the rear tires are tracking towards the apex because the whole car's body is rotating in order to point them there. With modern low profile radials on a 997 GT3 it's far less obvious but equally true- the entire car adopts a slip angle, so rear wheels are pointing in exactly the same direction as on a 991 GT3 with rear wheel steering. The 991's body is actually rotating as well, just 1.5 degrees less than the 997's because that's the extra amount the RWS is kicking in (out of around 4 degrees needed).

This is why RWS helps so much in transition- you don't need to wait for the car's body to rotate that 4 degrees before it really starts gripping, and that saves a lot of time. However it's not going to show any advantage to steady-state speed mid-corner- at that point in both cases all wheels are pointing the same direction and undergoing the same loads.

Follow?

As you can see from the above there is no benefit in outright grip in the middle of a fast corner, but it still has a couple advantages.

First and perhaps most obvious is an increase is perceived stability. Low speed you want very sensitive steering, but at high speed this can make the car feel nervous. With rear wheel steering you can dial that out. At low speed 8 degrees of angle on the front wheels is added to 2 degrees of angle on the rear, giving you a total of 10 degrees of wheel angle. Put the steering wheel in the same position at higher speed, however, and you can get a very different answer: 8 minus 1.5 equals 6.5 degrees of total angle and a more stable feel.

The other big advantage is keeping the rear-end in check. A car with "neutral" balance will tend to understeer at low speeds then transition towards oversteer as speeds increase. Weight transfer due to trail braking adds to this, and can make the rear end very challenging to manage on corner entry. On an early 911 this results in a particularly engaging and challenging dance as you get the car rotated into a corner and the tail steps out, but while fun it's not terribly fast. From the 964 onwards Porsche has been using increasingly sophisticated passive rear wheel steering to limit the amount the rear steps out, and with active rear wheel steering they've been able to take that one step further making high speed corner entry far easier and faster- essentially the rear steps out 1.5 degrees less than it otherwise would, and you don't need to wait for the car to rotate that extra degree and a half before you get full grip from the back.

RAS Stable or Nervous
 

I have two very different Porsches. One is a 2008 Cayman which can feel nervous at high speed or if the tire pressure is off. The other is a 2016 Panamera 4 which feels like it is on rails... which I attribute to the long wheelbase.

What I think I'm hearing is that at higher speed, the RAS will make the 911 T "feel" like it has a longer wheelbase and thus be more stable. (?)

Yep, Porsche themselves use the "long wheelbase" explanation to describe how RWS behaves at speed. With RWS in phase the car responds to the steering wheel much like the wheelbase has been extended, while out-of phase is the opposite.

Your Panamera has a couple other things going for it that make it feel more stable, in particular much higher "polar moment". Often described as moving the weights out to the end of a barbell, a high polar moment makes a car reluctant to change direction quickly. The long Panamera with its heavy engine in the nose has a very high polar moment when compared to your Cayman, and this increases stability at high speed but reduces agility at lower speeds.

What an informative response... thank you so much!

r

^ Good perspective, and agree.

However, there is an opposite truth: RWS actually helps less skilled drivers by stabilizing the car under heavy braking and/or during sudden steering inputs at speed. I've tried 991.2 Carreras with and without RWS back to back and it is noticeable—and even Walter Röhrl says he'd prefer have RWS in an emergency situation (though it sounded like he preferred the 991.2 Carrera without RWS for fun).

Wow 40lbs more weight though? Yikes.

AP said it was 8kg and worth the penalty when .1 GT3 came out I think.

It seems that I was wrong, sorry:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/760055-weight-of-rws.html

So 15kg or 33lbs.

Yes indeed.

However, I was looking at it from a fundamentals point of view e.g. the shear stress at the contact patch.

The point being that the rear tyres on a RAS car will be under less shear stress at the contact patch relative to a non-RAS car going through the same corner, at the same speed with the same tires e.g. lower slip angle - to me whats interesting is what controls the deformation at the contact patch which in turn defines the slip angle.

Fundamentally its the shape, area, contact pressure distribution and coefficient of friction of the contact patch - road interface that governs how "well" or how quickly a car can take a corner.

Thus from a technical point of view, a RAS equipped car should always be able to go through corners more quickly than a non-RAS car all else being equal. Which is what is observed :)

Couple of articles that may interest you.

Circuit racing, track texture, temperature and rubber friction
R. S. Sharp, P. Gruber & E. Fina
Vehicle System Dynamics Vol. 54 , Iss. 4,2016

Normal and shear forces in the contact patch of a braked racing tyre. Part 1: results from a finite-element model
Patrick Gruber, Robin S. Sharp & Andrew D. Crocombe
Vehicle System Dynamics Vol. 50 , Iss. 2,2012

Investigation of Shear Stresses in the Tire-Road Contact Patch
Anghelache, G., Negrus, E., and Ciubotaru, O.,
SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-1273, 2003

In essence you're looking at the conventional slip angle where as I was looking at what actually occurs at the contact patch itself (which ultimately defines the slip angle). I guess the simplest way to look at is a car will exhibit understeer if the slip angle of the front tires is greater than that of the rear tires, conversely a car will exhibit oversteer if the slip angle of the front tires is less than the slip angle of the rear tires.

The effect of RAS (crudely) is to reduce the slip angle of the rear tires e.g. therefore if the front slip angle and rear slip angles are broadly similar the car will behave in a more neutral manner. This in turn feeds into the ability to generate the optimal maximum frictional capacity of the tires.

What does it translate to in the real world? Ten days ago I had to good fortune to be invited to a 488GTB day at a race circuit I know well. There are two corners that favour RAS equipped cars - in this case my humble X51 .2 S was taking those corners ~7kmh faster than the GTB. I attempted the same speeds in the GTB and had the back end out everytime, the pro had several cracks at it with the same outcome. This despite the GTB being shod with Trofeo Rs relative to my S which was on MPSC2 N0 (it now has N1).

Whilst the technical explanations are very interesting, there is no doubt the practical outcomes are significant from a control/time perspective :)

Practicing slip angle control with my .1 GT3 has nearly eliminated my initial concerns. Feels very natural now, and reaction occurs as desired for me. I think a better approach for Porsche would be to allow the RWS cars (at start up) to chose it to be On/Off. Plenty of blank button spots, and it would be as simple as cutting power to the RWS motor at start up.

Ok, let’s see, because some of what you’re saying seems contradictory.

Previously you’d said that the 997 GT3’s rear tires were pointing away from the apex mid corner while the 991s GT3s with RWS were pointing towards it. Do you now agree that mid corner they are all pointing in the same direction, it’s the angle of the vehicle bodies which is different?

Please point me to the link that says that sheer stress on the contact patch is effected in any way in the condition above. Mid corner, same tires, same direction, same loads- macro or micro is immaterial, the sheer stress is identical. I’d appreciate it if you could explain why you think otherwise.

33lbs? Thanks, that’s more than I would have guessed.

randr, wouldn't the higher normal force in the 911 result in higher friction resistance in the tire? Pete's graph shows that a significant amount of lateral force can be resisted in the tire even at high slip angles.

I believe there is something with RWS that decreases the lateral force in the tire which makes it able to travel faster through the corner. Like most materials the tire must be shearing to some extent to provide its ultimate resistance but it can still provide significant resistance below the peak.

So much of traction limit seems to be related to suspension movements and slight weight loading and unloading.

Old thread, but I'll say that I have one of these now with a manual and RWS and I think it's basically a perfect car. For all around fun and enjoyment it's by far my favorite 911 I've ever had. I love the GT cars, but driving them should be an event - a special Mountain Drive, a Track Day, etc. DD'ing a GT car makes you numb to how special they are IMO.

I drive the Carrera T everywhere. In the rain, gravel roads, mountain runs, to the grocery store. And it dazzles me every. single. time. It's so perfectly packaged.

Great to hear! How is steering feel compared to a GT? Have found regular 991s lifeless but they're supposed to be getting better.

Not as good as a GT but it's not supposed to be. I'd say it's still pretty damn good. I've never caught myself thinking that the feeling is anything short of great for what the car is intended for. My car came with power steering plus. I have no idea if/how that affects it.

Are most dealerships able to acquire T allocations at will? Are they still available?

sgroer; congrats, I'm with you, a great driver and a lot of fun daily driving with the low end torque.

Steering; The GT cars comes from the factory with a much more aggressive toe and camber than the T, so if you change those settings on your T, you will feel improvements in feel, feed back and turn in.

If you think the car is a little soft, Elephant racing offer a kit with increased spring stiffness and retains stock coil overs.

https://www.elephantracing.com/porsc...-kits-for-991/

With that suspension upgrade and a simple Cobb tune and exhaust the car is pretty stout and fun!

I think T is a great car. I wish it could be ordered with comfort seats and rear seat delete.

Is it not the case? In Europe, it is possible.

I am wondering this, too. I have two friends looking. I know one of them has been calling around a lot and he's had no luck. So I'm not sure if the T is done, at least in terms of speccable allocations. If anyone finds otherwise, I'd appreciate a heads up!

They have made less than 800 T's for NA and allocations are very thin. My understanding is that there are a few sitting around.

I know of one T allocation at MSRP. PM me if you want the info.

How does T compare to carrera S or GTS driving experience?

Every dealer I look at has two or three T's sitting on the lot gathering dust. Surprises me, as I like the T. I think they are over optioned. I like the minimalist Ts: No leather, no sunroof, no PDK and no PCCBs. Just std T interior package and RWS (and I like the sport classic wheel upgrade). I'm still thinking of getting one as a DD.

I like it! It makes the 911 range more accessible to everyone. Let's be real, the GT3 Touring is super expensive and not everyone can afford it. I'm not saying that the T is inexpensive, but at least it meets the budgets of more people. If I could give it any criticisms, they would be: 1) Make it a manual only car 2) Remove the rear seats 3) Make the lighter seats the only option.

The Porsche Exchange had a black one 2 weeks ago with PCCBs/LWBs, Manual, no back seats- i think it was around ~$120,000. Looked pretty good and probably still sitting there.

It seems expensive but with a Tune it would be a blast around town.

But - I would rather have a second-hand GT4 to beat on for $40,000 less.- no question.

Having jumped from a GT4 (14,000 miles as a daily, occasional back-roads blast and track day) to a base Carrera 7MT (10,000 miles) followed by another Carrera 7MT chosen instead of a T (wanted a dark green car), plus a lot of miles in the Carrera T, I'd muuuuuuuch rather have a T than another GT4. The price gap is well pointed out, however!

Mistyped that with my GT mindset. :roflmao: I'm sure it would be discounted. My apologies

The remaining ones are mostly over-optioned or otherwise poorly optioned, including several with PDK :nono:. I agree with your assessment above, with just one exception... I'd skip the busy T interior package and spend a bit more for PCCBs! ;)

Sgroer, thank you kindly for the PM and will get back to you.

The manual version has a better diff, shorter gearing and is way more fun to drive vs the PDK.

How does the 7 speed compare to the 6 in the Touring?

Between your review and Pete's seems to be something special there. The kind of balance that is missing from many modern 911s.

The 7 speed has a short shifter which is exclusive to the T. Shifts are quick. Finding 7th is a little annoying but you only go there for long highway cruises so it's no big deal. It's not as good as the 6 speed. Too many gears and too close together. The rev matching is great. If the car had the 6 speed it would be perfect. I give the 7 speed manual a 7 out of 10. The 6 speed is a 9.5+ out of 10.

Thanks

I would rate the 7 speed a bit higher but generally agree. While I think we'd all prefer the 6MT, the 7 speed on the T is easily the best/most fun 7MT to date.

3k in a 9k redline car is like 2k in a 6k redline car :)

I guess it would partly depend on how much stop-and-go is included in your commute...though I think the T deserves (and needs) a third pedal.

3000 miles on mine now- combination of mtn, back road and downtown traffic. Haven't once thought "this car would be better with PDK"

I daily my 911 and went from the 991.2 GT3 to the T. Much prefer the T for daily use. Mine is a 19 manual with RAS and 4-ways

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...28c318776d.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fed7b94ade.jpg

Took mine into the mountains today. Awesome. Cherahola Skyway, Fontana Dam, Tail of the dragon.

Best damn "fun" car there is.

anyone know the gt3 Touring US production numbers?

Yup:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b47bba0ec4.png

Ran the Cherahola skyway today. What a road!

Cherohala skyway is one of my favorites, the big sweepers really contrast with the twisties of the Dragon. I look forward to running my new ride up there after PPF install.

Yeah, love love love the Skyway. And this time of year, and assuming no ice, the best road in the East. Where the Dragon is 30 mph, the Skyway is double that, at least, with straights to stretch the legs!

Don't really get the criticism of the 7MT in the T and, to a lesser extent, other 991.2 Carrera-line cars.

Is it as easy/fun to use as the 6MT in a GT3? No, but it is not by any means bad or even mediocre by the standards of gearboxes from other manufacturers (or, for that matter, Porsche itself in the not-so-distant past)—and neither the 991.2 GT3 6MT nor the 991.2 Carrera 7MT seem to me quite as sweet in use as the 6MT in the 981 GT4. I've spent a lot of time with both. After 14,000 miles, I moved from a 2016 GT4 to a 2018 Carrera and found its 7MT better to shift than those in the early press 991.2 cars...to the point that I wasn't so sure the GT4 shifter was significantly better. Too many gates? I can see that criticism 15,000~ miles later, but that has yet to present a problem for me. As for shifting into 7th on a long freeway slog? It's transformative. Running the 3.0 at 1800-2200~ rpm sure beats running the GT4's 3.8 at 3200-3500+ rpm for long stretches of interstate. It's like getting a second car in one...and I find the Carrera's lower gear stack lot nicer than the GT4's on back roads, with the T's that bit better thanks to the slightly lower effective final drive ratio.

YMMV, but I think the Carrera T is sorely underrated.

^THIS.

The Carrera T is a great driver's car especially on the open back roads, etc.... and it can hold its own on the track too even against more powerful cars.

I thought that the GT3 touring shifter was too light. Reminded me of a normal car, something like a civic. It also didn't snap to center/3rd strongly enough, to to the point that when going from 2nd to 3rd I hit the gate between 3rd and 5th, something that's happened to me in a 987. In my experience, the 911 T shifter had better self centering and I never missed a shift. With everything you feel and touch (seats, steering, shifter) I thought the 911 T experience was waaaay closer to a GT3 experience than the price difference suggests (not so with sound and brakes). And you can buy one at a discount instead of with an ADM.

^ Yep. And same goes for even the "mere" Carrera. They're closer than most people realize...

Drove my first Carrera 7MT to SFO to fly to the Carrera T/GT3 Touring event in South of France, and found the only obvious differences were the shifter (notably nicer), cabin sound (a bit nicer), and LSD (nice, but the rear-engined Carrera rarely has issues with putting power down). SPASM didn't seem as different from PASM as it had in the 991.1 era...as though it's a matter of aesthetics more than substantive tuning differences—something an engineer confirmed as part of the 991.1 > 991.2 progression, making the standard setup keener and the sport setup more livable according to customer feedback. The T seemed to me to be a marketing move with a goofy name, albeit a very nice package.

Drove the very same Carrera 7MT to a Carrera T/718 GTS event in Napa several months later, and found the handling differences hard to parse from one day to the next, this on great roads I know well. The T was brilliant in both basic 7MT and loaded PDK w/RAS forms, two different flavors. But then, so is the Carrera…

It wasn't until we took a Carrera 7MT and a Carrera T 7MT for a 700~mile loop test for 000 that the Carrera T set itself apart, and its advantages were obvious albeit still pretty subtle. It was a fun test, and while one of us preferred the T, two of us actually preferred the Carrera (but not for reasons that most people would value). Thus, the T "won"—but not by much.

For my second Carrera (a potential keeper), I was torn between a PTS Carrera or a Carrera T...as I wanted SPASM and LSD, but prefer my 911s in dark green and didn't love PSE or the T's forced branding hits and mandatory gray wheels. It was a 51/49 situation...

^ Interesting feedback. Love observations of subtleties like this. Need to look for/at that next time I am in a GT3 6MT.

^ Yep. Add PCCB (I would), RAS, and/or LWBS (I wouldn't) and things only get closer. ​​​

As for what you've got bolded? Just as I view Guards Red as the new PTS, I've wondered if the CT is in some ways the new GT—a driver's car for those who don't much care if there's "something better/faster" out there, and will use the car without guilt. It's no GT3, but it's pretty appealing as its own ball of wax and a very complete, all-uses 911.

Great shots!

I don't either. I love the short shifter and shorter low gearing in the Carrera T 7MT.

​​​​​​Have to agree with you both.

I almost bought a T, but as guy with the means for a single 911, I went with the GT3. I felt like I would always have the regret of not getting the GT3 if I went with the T.

With your last breath, I sincerely doubt "I regret getting the GT3" will be among your thoughts....

You chose well. The 4.0 flat six is 250 GTO V12 good, despite half the cylinders. Maybe better. A real masterpiece...and the rest of the car ain't bad either. ;)

Fortunately I am able to pair my T with a GT car, and sincerely hope that I'll always have the means to do that. However, if I had to go to one 911 (Gasp!) it would be the T, hands down, no contest. I've had every machination of 991 GT car there is, and as we know they are incredible cars. However, what the T does far better is the essence of the 911. Not just livable, but an absolute joy to drive around town, even more fun in the mountains, capable on the track. I thought the T was a 60-90 day hold while the next GT arrives, but the damn car flipped my sports car priorities upside down. I instantly connected to the car and immediately started thinking I may never sell this one. Plus my T "only" set me back $98k.

Where the T falls short would be on the track. I've never tracked it... may do it at some point just to see what it's like. With the base Carrera brakes, lower power, and much lower overall grip, I don't know how I'd feel about it. If I was going to the track regularly, a GT would make a ton more sense. But, the majority of my driving is around town and into the mountains, where the T shines.

I was talking to the new head of Sports Cars for PCNA at the 992 preview event at PEC a couple weeks ago... We discussed the fact that with such low volumes (far lower than even GT2RS) and the fact that the T is the last narrow body "special" 911, it ironically could be the future classic. I certainly won't drive it like a classic - about to cross 4000 miles in 3 months of ownership. I sat in the 992 at PEC, and felt they will not be able to extract the charm of the T out of it... minimalist, analog, pure. I don't see it happening.

I know as cofounder of Smokies and on a GT board this seems like blasphemy, but go drive a T with a manual, RAS and 4 ways (nothing else needed) and try to tell me it's not hilariously fun. The car is far more than the sum of its parts - it seems like a parts bin special, but it is such a great combo of GT elements, everyday drivability and unique packaging that it just never gets old.

^ Thanks for the thoughts sgroer - I bought my T for various reasons, primarily nostalgic as my Dad's 1st 911 was a 1973T that I grew up with, but also because although I'd always loved the 991 - coming from an analog 993, I didn't connect with the non-GT cars. While I was finalizing my order late last year, I drove several GT3s thanks to local Porsche friends and I felt safe that my "out" if I didn't bond with Carrera T was to trade up.

Within the 1st 1000 miles I knew this car was a keeper. In a lot of respects, it was the exact same feeling I had 18 years ago when I bought the 993 (used) - The revised final-drive ratio in the 7MT, while seemingly a small change, completely opens up the character of the 3.0TT compared to the base car. To the point that when I drive the GT3 and CT back to back, it's honestly a toss-up on which engine I like better - the high-strung 4.0 is glorious but feels cramped in normal city driving. The 3.0TT has less aural magic (but it does have some good noise at 7.5K!) - but is just far better on the street. And I'm not sure how to describe this, but the suspension tuning on the CT is just perfectly executed - it feels light and darty at speed in the twisties, and stable / solid on the highway (my T has RAS). The GT3 is very different - it's clearly tuned more towards track work - and while I hesitate to use the word fatiguing (because it's not), it's just not as good for daily use on typical US roads.

The CT and GT3 are the cars that speak to me - but since I can only have one to do it all, it's the Carrera T, and no regrets. They are both outstanding cars!

And for those wondering - Over they years, I'd had upgraded my 993 setup to Euro RS spec minus the 3.8. It was fantastic, but suffered the same issue - not as usable (really was fatiguing) on public roads - and I wasn't driving it much as a result. The best cars are the ones you drive!

cheers!

Great post and I agree with you. Happy to have my GT3 for the track but almost always choose my T for the road and if I could only have one would keep my T. I would have never thought this possible before driving -- and soon thereafter buying -- the Carrera T.

Very intrigued by the T as there are a few for sale around Dallas. I track a 350R as a dedicated track car but have the itch as my goal has always been a 991.1 GT3 (prices are coming down and the engine warranty is awesome). Sounds like if my primary purpose is tracking - GT3 all the way? I used to have a base 997.1 that I tracked and loved it. Of course, either way - LWB's are a must for me.

Test drove the T yesterday at local P car dealer.

Wow.

Impressive.

5k off MSRP without asking. With a little work got 10k off.

992 T will be produced so I am guessing they want to move these.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...carrera-t-992/


My trade value was terrible so I passed on the deal. As soon as i sell my 08 997 a T will be added to my garage.

I expect the 992 T will be, by definition, rather anti-T. It will be the wide body, as the narrow-body, quite sadly, is no more. And it will be notably heavier. And it will surely have much more tech and nannies.

As to your other comment, it seems like every time a dealership offers me decent discounting the trade value they offer me is particularly low. They really know how to get you one way or another.

Pete - just about to lock down my T order and I'm vacillating between White and GR. The new PTS? Nice! Any more thoughts on this?

Thanks so much for posting this. Your head is exactly where mine is. My GT3 is awesome (the engine!!) but I find myself not driving it as much as I should. I think it's compromised some of the livability and utility that, now I really see as a important, defining characteristic of the 911 DNA.

My questions to owners of both the T and GT3 are:

• Hows the cabin noise level compared with the GT3, particularly at highway cruise speeds?
• How's the ground clearance on the nose compared to the GT3? I understand there's two front fascia options on the T - one of them looks like it would scrape more easily than the other.

Thanks in advance for your answers :)

My local dealer said no more 2019 t orders

Anyone hear differently?

Newport Beach Porsche has 4 t cars on lot. Two gt silver, one yellow and one white.

Highway noise in the T is lower than GT3, but not by much. There is reduction of insulation in the T and thinner gorilla glass. If I had one issue with the T it would be highway noise, even though it's not at GT3 levels.

I don't have the sport design kit, don't like it as I think the black base T front splitter is awesome looking. Compared to a GT3, it's like driving an SUV. I've scraped just once and don't find myself engineering new entries to places unless it's just obviously a tough spot. The time I scraped, it was a boneheaded move trying to enter a driveway that was much too steep and I knew it. The sport design, IMO, looks worse and takes away from the day to day joys of driving a T as it seems lower.

Glad to hear I made the right choice. Then again, it only made sense since the GT3 is not going be my daily driver. Certainly, when it comes time to look for a new daily, the 991 T will be considered based on the love it seems to be getting in this thread.

There was a dealer in the SE that was looking to swap a 992 allocation for a buildable T, which tells me there are very few if any T slots left.

Thank you for the really helpful info!!! Rusnak has a T on the lot - I think i'm going to take it for a test drive based on the posts in this thread. It will be a really tough decision to get rid of the GT3T

If your GT3T is not your DD and you do not need the money- I think you nuts to trade it. No matter how good people post about it - it is still not a GT3 and the 4.0 NA is so special that you may/will regret this down the road

Whooo. Never easy, is it?

I gotta say modern Porsches look great in Guards Red (the formula has changed 1970s/1980s > 986/996 era > now), and I was really surprised how good the Carrera T looked in GR at the U.S. launch with the gray mirrors and gray wheels (the latter pick up a hint of the GT4 launch cars). T is also very nice in White. Decisions, decisions....

To my real surprise, I also like Lava on the T and other NB Carreras—where I have zero interest in it on other models. Something about the milder body makes it work—and Lava is perhaps the most "special" color of those I like. Certainly the most unusual in the world at large. So, for me it would come down to GT Silver, White, Black (also good...but high maintenance), GR, or Lava. Three of those are "free," one is $700 (and low maintenance) and one is $3k. GR is no cost, sure to be fairly rare, a classic Porsche color, and looks great. Yeah, I might be tempted to go that way...

^ I tend to agree with this. While I think there are a lot of people out there in GT3s who would actually be happier in 991.2 Carrera-line cars (and drive them more often), the GT3 is an experience that is effectively unparalleled and rarely matched on four wheels. If the car is for blowing the cobwebs out, the GT3 is very hard to beat.

Truly, we are spoiled for choice right now...

You're going to regret that decision.

This thread just goes to show how damn good the 911T is.

Ha. Tku!

Thanks!

Thanks for your thoughts Pete et all. Definitely, GR feels more like a COMMITMENT but I'm getting the idea that REALLY suits the car. Next step is to track one down in the flesh.

Really? Why is that?

^Hard parker status..

Just to pile on praise for the Carrera T I just purchased one from Tyler @ Atlanta Perimeter. It had been sitting around a while I believe because the only options were PCCB, RAS, Sport Buckets and Chrono. All I need and nothing I don't. Its a fabulous car. The styling details with the gray wheels, mirrors, graphics, exhaust tips, etc. is really cool. Plus I really wanted something I would want to drive nearly everyday.

In order to do this deal I came to the decision to sell my 2007 GT3. I had owned it since new and tracked it a few times. Over the last 5 years I put less than 1000 miles on it. It really was a special car but it was not conducive to daily driving. Too low, stiff clutch etc. Don't get me wrong I loved the car for those back road blasts but it was just a decision to go in a different direction. Also for a track beast I picked up a GT350R so that eased the pain.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9f697f9d66.jpg

Nice pick up. Were you able to negotiate a discount? These cars seem to be sitting on lots.

Yes. Substantial in my eyes. About 10%. As Porsch noted, there are a number sitting around but with "bloated" options. I wanted PCCBs so that narrowed the field considerably.

Agree on the buckets. Since my kid is 16 he's not going in the back anyway so not a deal breaker for me.

Congrats I've been eyeing that one for awhile.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7bb6cdf7c5.jpg


For those of you with the T and LWBs I had ClassicFX make a set of inserts using the T package sportex and they turned out great. I also have Crazy Eddie's bolster protector.

Sound decision for this purchase. Enjoy.

I do like the simplicity of this car. No drama-Performs handsomely.

GT3s have some drama which is great but, I agree, not a Daily driver.

I have a GT4 and .2 GT3 and sometimes or more often than not I do miss my ex 991.2 Carrera (got it in Jan 2017 before the T was even revealed) and I can only imagine if I had a 911T now.... it needs and deserves more & more praise and respect.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d941db5592.png


I'm kinda jelly/envy with these GT3 + 911T owners lol and yeah 1st world probs. Anyway, great choice to all the fellas on acquiring and enjoying your 911T... I always was and still am a big supporter of this T model.

It also reminds me so much of my standard Guard Red Carrera build... and now the T gets so much more goodies whether standard or optional that were previously unavailable on base Carrera models.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...01f2cb3245.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...75f087c865.png

I took my GT3 out for a drive earlier today. I'll tell you one thing that the 7MT in my Carrera T definitely has over the 6MT in my GT3.... the stick doesn't jump around in 4th gear. I know there is a separate thread on this issue and I know some people have talked to their techs and have been told it's normal and not a problem, but after 3000 miles it still drives me nuts, always giving me that "something is not quite right" feeling. I wish Porsche would come out with a fix for it. Did not experience this issue with the 6MT in my GT4, not sure what the problem is.

#savethestickers

I waffled when ordering, but kept it...now would not remove them for anything. I think it gives the car a lower stance visually, as it adds a subtle character line lengthwise.

cheers!

I ordered a clean build - model designation delete on rear and side-stripe delete. I'm not a stickers guy and I just like a clean, simple look. And this seems to fit with the less-is-more theme of the T. However, I'm surely in the minority and I think most guys like the side stripes. And the side stripes were designed specifically for the T, so there's that. It's purely subjective, so there's really very little we can do to help you with your decision.

I know! Crazy hey...it's just such a damn good car!

Tracking the T
 

The love for the T is a bit like that for the 981 Spyder. More than the sum of its parts and not all about the power.

Anyone had experience of both and can make a comparison?

Funny how we went from poo-pooing the T to now heralding it, always said it seemed to be a great package/car :icon107:

What a ringing endorsement, given what's in your avatar.

I agree, and have been saying this more or less since 2015/2016 with the arrival of the 991.2 Carrera 7MT and my shock at how complete and fun it was—easily the best standard 911 for a long time, maybe ever. Two years later, the T was similarly brilliant but didn't make its differences all that apparent over the standard Carrera, even in two near back to back drives, other than the obvious short shifter and a bit more engine noise—mainly because the base suspension got a lot more sporting with the 991.2 while Sport PASM got noticeably more compliant. The dynamic/overall similarity said a lot for the standard Carrera, and also had me thinking the T was a bit of a marketing special and maybe not even worth its premium over the Carrera unless you wanted PSE, 20s, and other items in its group of options—or had to have RAS and/or LWBS. It took a 600-800 mile back-to-back drive to ferret out the real dynamic differences between Carrera and Carrera T, and all I can say is the T is very special indeed. It takes a car I already think a lot of GT3 drivers might have more fun in more of the time—and more often—and adds another layer with a key addition not available in the Carrera: Sport PASM w/LSD. I also love its breadth of capability, and its price directly addresses the complaints of those who say GT3s are becoming too precious.

Marketing ploy? A new Black Edition? Who cares. It's a great car.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b88e1d729e.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...67b5fd25e4.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2c372897f1.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5f7c1fe366.png
(Photos Larry Chen for 000)




Yes. I liken the Carrera T to a 911-shaped Boxster Spyder—but I think of 987.2, not 981, in part because of its magic but also for following the first Spyder's script by focusing on chassis rather than engine.

Everyone will have an opinion, and TMMV, but my take is: 987.2 Spyder > Carrera T > 981 Spyder

987.2 Boxster Spyder: a high point in terms of "more than the sum of its parts" in the modern era of Porsche, but comes with compromise in terms of practicality
Carrera T: has shades of the 987.2 Spyder in its goldilocksness and one of Porsche's very best engines + none of the downsides in practicality
981 Boxster Spyder: improved over the 987.2 Spyder in every way, possibly more entertaining on the street than the GT4, but lost some of the magic of the 987.2 Spyder

Have owned several GT cars but have to agree with you guys!

I'm about to get the front half of the car clear bra'ed. Should I have headlight covered as well? Is delamination still an issue? Will be going with xpel.

I think if you find a quality installer (or de-installer, if you will), covering the headlights is not a big deal. I think with the proper precautions (taking time and using adequate heat/steam) delamination is not a huge issue.

Is 991 T really that good? I test drove it once and I felt like Porsche could try harder and only gave it a little effort. Probably I should drive it longer?

I think you are right. I didn't set my mind straight before approaching the T. I didn't really put money into it the equation.

I ordered the car (for the wife) with side decal delete as I wanted a longer and thicker stripe. Then I put the stripes on the first weekend I got the car. Car has good pickup and rides better than my 991.1 C2S Cab, but not as good as my .2 GT3. Maybe the P Zeros just aren't as smooth as the Cup2's.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...50b7dd125c.jpg

Coming from a GT3- no -it would not be that exciting but maybe if you take it for what it is it may be okay.

For me though; I do not think it is the deal of the century because it is not that Cheap.

I own both the Carrera T and .2 GT3. I prefer my T for road driving, GT3 for the track. Sometimes you have to actually drive a car to get it. I remember some guys here poo-poo'd the GT4 at first, too -- they they drove one and were immediate converts. Just saying. But yeah, for the road, I do actually find the T more fun.

Well said. I do wonder how many of the critics have actually driven a T. I'm sure there are some, but I'll bet most haven't. Seems like there is now a good number of us GT guys who have added a T to their stable. I think that says something.

IMO you hit the nail on the head. I have a .2 C4 and have (or had) a .2 GT3. C4 has PZero, GT3 had Dunlop. There is a noticeable/appreciable difference to me. Much much prefer the Dunlops to the PZeros for traction, comfort surprisingly, and less road noise. Not a fan of PZero tires especially how high they need to be inflated per the manufacturer, they are like pucks!

Just different animals. There is something to be said about having a car with less drama and being able to drive it more carefree IMO, that is just as fun in certain scenarios especially due to the torque and tossability. That is tough to do in a GT3 with a rev happy angry engine, wing, insane grip, huge front lip, and rigid buckets let alone a 3RS or 2RS. At the same time though, that is why the GT cars are as great as they are I would argue :)

I feel the "childish backfire sounds" are the T's only weakness. Predictably annoying.

Can be turned off using the individual setting. They are only active in sport mode. Normal and sport plus they are off.

I enjoy them. They are great for cars and coffee. Make you feel cool. :roflmao:

Yep reason why I never drive my C4 in sport mode with PSE on. Absolutely hate the engineered fart noises. Hope the 992.1 got rid of that

You guys need to be more immature.... Embrace the backfires. Be an :atwhore:

Lol if I don't spec my cars in anything but silver that should tell you how much I like attention :) You do you buddy! Same reason I could never own a LG RS :roflmao: :icon107:

"Embrace the backfires"
- Anthony Hopkins

LOL - I don't mind looking like an idiot. My first GT3 was GT silver... never again! ;)

I'm sorry you lost your sense of taste after your GT3 lmao. I bet you'll look back on this, reflect on your T ownership, and agree with me down the road on the farts :thumbup:

That being said different strokes for different folks and I can respect that! :cheers: oh and farts or no farts, T still a hell of a car. Always said that

You're going to sacrifice some sound when you go turbo. And you're going to gain torque. It's a trade-off. Even the GT2 RS, which I love and consider to be one of the best sounding turbo-charged cars I've ever heard, does not sound like the GT3 RS. But if the exhaust sound on the Carrera T is the car's only weakness (per Cormid), that says something pretty spectacular about the car. I've been buying and enjoying Porsches for over 20 years now and, pound for pound (or fun per dollar), the Carrera T is right up there with the best I've driven.

Ok, we need an audio/video clip of these "farts" for the rest of us not fortunate enough to own a T.

to be honest I actually quite enjoy the sound from the 3.0 engine with (PSE always on for me)

From cold start, from low RPM to high RPM. In terms of aggressiveness/emotion it's spot on/surprisingly good IMO. And at cold start/*lower* RPMs I would say it's louder than a stock .2 GT3 with PSE on

I don't have any complaints, even coming from GT experience now except 1) the unnecessary backfire noises it makes only in sport mode with PSE on, and 2) admittedly not the biggest fan of the specific pitch/tone/whistle of the turbo with the windows down for some reason, just feel like Porsche's execution on it was less than perfect *in my humble opinion*

Adds a small Tesla-esque sounding element to the otherwise amazing sound. Windows up nothing no whistle

5:40ish Nick explains (or watch the whole video)

The 3.0 in the 991.2 Carreras, when in sport mode with PSE option on, make that overrun noise *every* time you lift off the accelerator in any gear

So when you are driving away from your local Whole Foods in sport mode with PSE on at 9mph in 1st and you lift off throttle for the incoming speed bump, you will be farting in front of the pedestrians