Questions re Used 991
09-08-2017, 03:02 AM
#1
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Questions re Used 991
Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on this forum and I have no previous experience with Porsches. I currently have an Audi S3 and am looking to get a used 991 (2012-2014) once my lease is up. I have been browsing around and have run by a few certified pre-owned 991s at around 60k with between 24-35k miles on the car. I had a few preliminary questions regarding by a used 991.
First, how reliable are these cars? I will be driving around 15k miles a year and am looking for something that can would be able to take the millage.
Second, how is the residual on these cars? I checked KBB but those numbers seemed to be quite low. If I'm getting the car at 60k with 25k miles, how much do you think it will be worth with 100k miles when I would look to trade it in? KBB says around 20k.
Third and lastly, how expensive is the maintenance on these cars?
All in all, I am excited to be considering my first Porsche and just wanted to do my due diligence before pulling the trigger. Thanks in advance.
This is my first post on this forum and I have no previous experience with Porsches. I currently have an Audi S3 and am looking to get a used 991 (2012-2014) once my lease is up. I have been browsing around and have run by a few certified pre-owned 991s at around 60k with between 24-35k miles on the car. I had a few preliminary questions regarding by a used 991.
First, how reliable are these cars? I will be driving around 15k miles a year and am looking for something that can would be able to take the millage.
Second, how is the residual on these cars? I checked KBB but those numbers seemed to be quite low. If I'm getting the car at 60k with 25k miles, how much do you think it will be worth with 100k miles when I would look to trade it in? KBB says around 20k.
Third and lastly, how expensive is the maintenance on these cars?
All in all, I am excited to be considering my first Porsche and just wanted to do my due diligence before pulling the trigger. Thanks in advance.
09-08-2017, 11:15 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Welcome and enjoy the hunt for your 911.
My current 991.1 911 C4S is my 1st Porsche after having a number of Audi's and I've found the 911 to me more reliable, easier to work on and of course more fun to drive.
I'm a high miler , currently at 70K and pretty much use the 911 every day in most/all seasons. I do have winter wheels and tires so I'm ready for the white stuff but living in middle TN it's hit or miss on whether we see any.
On service... if you are a DIY'er the maintenance is pretty straight forward ... if not it can be a little bit off putting if you are not prepared or have not done your homework on what the car needs at various intervals.
An oil change .... which is the simplest task to perform on the newer 911's seem to be the most over charged service at the dealer. So doing this DIY is the best advice I can give to make the other services seem more affordable.
Quite a few on here have done some great DIY write ups so if you are thinking of doing some services yourself you can find some great guides to follow. Plus most of us are on here to answer questions when they come up.
Enjoy.
My current 991.1 911 C4S is my 1st Porsche after having a number of Audi's and I've found the 911 to me more reliable, easier to work on and of course more fun to drive.
I'm a high miler , currently at 70K and pretty much use the 911 every day in most/all seasons. I do have winter wheels and tires so I'm ready for the white stuff but living in middle TN it's hit or miss on whether we see any.
On service... if you are a DIY'er the maintenance is pretty straight forward ... if not it can be a little bit off putting if you are not prepared or have not done your homework on what the car needs at various intervals.
An oil change .... which is the simplest task to perform on the newer 911's seem to be the most over charged service at the dealer. So doing this DIY is the best advice I can give to make the other services seem more affordable.
Quite a few on here have done some great DIY write ups so if you are thinking of doing some services yourself you can find some great guides to follow. Plus most of us are on here to answer questions when they come up.
Enjoy.
09-08-2017, 11:57 AM
#3
Simple answers. The car should last if it has and will be well maintained. Maintenance is quite expensive, as are repairs on these cars. If you drive the car a lot, it will depreciate a lot, period. These are great cars, but if you're looking for a cheap daily driver, you're looking in the wrong place.
09-08-2017, 12:56 PM
#4
Since you are new to Porsche, it's important to realize that Porsches are expensive to purchase and to maintain. Since you are buying used, I'd recommend getting a CPO car. Porsches are very reliable, but that doesn't guarantee that your car will be trouble free. CPO is the best insurance you can buy to insure against any catastrophic expense that you may incur on a car that is not under warranty.
For the majority of Porsche owners, their Porsche is a pleasure car and not a DD. Hence, you'll find many 4 - 5 year old cars with less than 30K miles. Since you plan on putting 15K miles on your car each year, expect a very significant depreciation.
Dealership maintenance is very high when compared to your Audi. I suspect that you could buy a 4 year maintenance package for your Audi for less than $1k. For a 991 expect to pay around $300 - $350 for an oil change, two year service will cost around $1000, and four year service will range in the $1500 - $2000 range. Prices vary greatly depending upon the area in which you live. There are many indy shops that will provide maintenance services for far less. Of course you'll save a great deal if you can do at least some of the maintenance, like oil changes, yourself.
Bottom line is that it's going to cost you a lot to own a 991, and it's best that you understand that before you make the purchase.
For the majority of Porsche owners, their Porsche is a pleasure car and not a DD. Hence, you'll find many 4 - 5 year old cars with less than 30K miles. Since you plan on putting 15K miles on your car each year, expect a very significant depreciation.
Dealership maintenance is very high when compared to your Audi. I suspect that you could buy a 4 year maintenance package for your Audi for less than $1k. For a 991 expect to pay around $300 - $350 for an oil change, two year service will cost around $1000, and four year service will range in the $1500 - $2000 range. Prices vary greatly depending upon the area in which you live. There are many indy shops that will provide maintenance services for far less. Of course you'll save a great deal if you can do at least some of the maintenance, like oil changes, yourself.
Bottom line is that it's going to cost you a lot to own a 991, and it's best that you understand that before you make the purchase.
09-08-2017, 01:37 PM
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Porsches are more reliable than your Audi (I've owned five Porsches and three Audis).
It's an excellent entry level "semi-exotic" vehicle. They are not particularly fussy and are not trouble-prone. I don't think they are expensive to maintain or repair myself, but that relative to what you are used to. Compared to an Aston or Ferrari, they're downright cheap on maintenance and parts. I do most all my own maintenance, and that's key as well.
A 100K mile Porsche will be shunned, that's an EBAY car with no reserve, you'll get murdered on trade in. That car would go to auction, so you would not get more than Manheim auction prices on trade.
I drove my first 911 to 232,000 miles, though there were new synchros, valve guides and cam change tensioners done at 130K.
Get one - they're a blast.
It's an excellent entry level "semi-exotic" vehicle. They are not particularly fussy and are not trouble-prone. I don't think they are expensive to maintain or repair myself, but that relative to what you are used to. Compared to an Aston or Ferrari, they're downright cheap on maintenance and parts. I do most all my own maintenance, and that's key as well.
A 100K mile Porsche will be shunned, that's an EBAY car with no reserve, you'll get murdered on trade in. That car would go to auction, so you would not get more than Manheim auction prices on trade.
I drove my first 911 to 232,000 miles, though there were new synchros, valve guides and cam change tensioners done at 130K.
Get one - they're a blast.
09-08-2017, 01:49 PM
#6
Deprecation for a 4 year old 911 is significant. Almost half the price, so depreciation going forward will not be that high. From my experience maintenance cost is a function of the car cost. My experience for an oil change has been $30 for a Nissan, $210 for a BMW 535, $600 for a Maserati. So a 911 is in the ball park. Another expense you should consider is insurance which is high for these cars. Did you even look at the cost for replacement tires, they are high and you will be replacing them in less than 2 years. If I you are so concerned with cost perhaps a used 911 as a daily driver with lots of miles is not the best fit for you. Even leasing will cost you more because of the mileage that you will accumulate. Did you consider a lower cost Cayman?
09-08-2017, 01:53 PM
#7
In terms of deprecation, I don't think it's as bad if you buy a CPO or used one and look at it over the span you plan to own. The first owner has already taken a substantial portion of the hit.
Assume you spend $70k on a used base 2014 with 25k miles. In 4 years, you'll have close to 85k miles. I think you'd still be able to get $35k resale at that time...the $20k you mentioned seems a little low but who knows. So $35k cost over 4 years + insurance + maintenance. Obviously these are all estimates, and depends on the model you get. GTS' seem to depreciate the least.
Not sure how much an S3 lease is, but this might not be much more if you compare the annual cost of both.
Assume you spend $70k on a used base 2014 with 25k miles. In 4 years, you'll have close to 85k miles. I think you'd still be able to get $35k resale at that time...the $20k you mentioned seems a little low but who knows. So $35k cost over 4 years + insurance + maintenance. Obviously these are all estimates, and depends on the model you get. GTS' seem to depreciate the least.
Not sure how much an S3 lease is, but this might not be much more if you compare the annual cost of both.
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09-08-2017, 01:55 PM
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Welcome to Rennlist,
I have a FL S3 as a daily, S3 is far more comfortable, and had no issues, same goes for the Porsche
911 maintenance isn't too far from most Audi prices, oil changes are almost double, my local dealer charges $380~
I only put about 5k miles a year on it though
As far as resale, if you're going to keep it till you hit 100k miles, don't worry about the resale. KBB can't predict the future, I'd say it'll be worth a bit more than 20k as long as you take care of the car.
I have a FL S3 as a daily, S3 is far more comfortable, and had no issues, same goes for the Porsche
911 maintenance isn't too far from most Audi prices, oil changes are almost double, my local dealer charges $380~
I only put about 5k miles a year on it though
As far as resale, if you're going to keep it till you hit 100k miles, don't worry about the resale. KBB can't predict the future, I'd say it'll be worth a bit more than 20k as long as you take care of the car.
09-08-2017, 02:04 PM
#9
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I agree with the previous comments. One thing you need to know is that you can't rotate the tires on these cars, and they are soft rubber. Depending on your driving style, you could go through two sets of rear tires and one set of front tires per year at 15K miles per year.
09-08-2017, 02:11 PM
#10
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I have had a bakers dozen 911's and only had 1 major issue which Porsche made right (RMS issue 996 TT). A lot of guys drive their cars year round and then replace them when they are ready. Its not a cheap DD as the mileage kills the resale and the tires are not inexpensive to replace every 18 months if you drive that much and some of the normal maintenance if you don't DIY can be eye popping.
I drive mine in the spring, summer and fall and it sleeps during the winter (approx 7k/year). If I lived in a sunshine state I would drive it more and replace it more often. It is not the car to get if you are trying to be "frugal". Or get a "beater" for the winter.
I drive mine in the spring, summer and fall and it sleeps during the winter (approx 7k/year). If I lived in a sunshine state I would drive it more and replace it more often. It is not the car to get if you are trying to be "frugal". Or get a "beater" for the winter.
09-08-2017, 02:40 PM
#11
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The 991.1 is the most over engineered car recently made that you can find right now. They have no major issues and you can get a great deal in a CPO for peace of mind.
i disagree about maintenance being expensive. It's frankly cheap compared to anything else in the segment.
i disagree about maintenance being expensive. It's frankly cheap compared to anything else in the segment.
09-08-2017, 02:52 PM
#12
If you do it all yourself. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the OP, who drives a leased S3 and has never owned a sports car, probably isn't going to being doing his own brake flushes, tire changes, etc. Dealer maintenance for a Porsche is similar to a colonoscopy without the anesthesia.
09-08-2017, 02:56 PM
#13
Former audi owner here. I've had nearly a half a dozen s4's an a8 and a few other products of theirs. Great cars but since they have gone electric power steering I couldn't bring myself to get another one. In comparison Porsche did an amazing job on their electric power steering versus Audi. Audi needs to go back to hydraulics.
Get a CPO car. Totally worth it. Unless you track the car you really don't need an S, GTS or Turbo. Some say you do, but if you are doing 100% street driving a non-S is just fine. Also you'll find that the brakes and pads for the Non-S are about what you'd pay for similar parts for an Audi S4. (unsure of S3) Also if you go non-S you will not have PDCC which is a maintenance item at 60k.
My only regret at this point was not biting the bullet back in the day and going Porsche sooner.
Sadly the Porsche's aftermarket scan tools are nothing compared to VCDS on the Audi side. Ross-Tech has that pretty well locked down, I only wish they would bring Porsche into the fold.
You will need snow shoes (winter tires) if you plan to use it in the winter. Dealer oil changes can be in the 300-400 range. Its crazy for what little they do, its better to diy or go indy on those.
Insurance delta for me was not huge, from a 14 S4 to a 14 C4 the jump was only maybe 200 bucks for the whole year. I can imagine if you did a turbo this number would be much larger. My fuel economy went up. I went from 20mpg to around 26-27. So that was a welcome surprise/change.
Get a CPO car. Totally worth it. Unless you track the car you really don't need an S, GTS or Turbo. Some say you do, but if you are doing 100% street driving a non-S is just fine. Also you'll find that the brakes and pads for the Non-S are about what you'd pay for similar parts for an Audi S4. (unsure of S3) Also if you go non-S you will not have PDCC which is a maintenance item at 60k.
My only regret at this point was not biting the bullet back in the day and going Porsche sooner.
Sadly the Porsche's aftermarket scan tools are nothing compared to VCDS on the Audi side. Ross-Tech has that pretty well locked down, I only wish they would bring Porsche into the fold.
You will need snow shoes (winter tires) if you plan to use it in the winter. Dealer oil changes can be in the 300-400 range. Its crazy for what little they do, its better to diy or go indy on those.
Insurance delta for me was not huge, from a 14 S4 to a 14 C4 the jump was only maybe 200 bucks for the whole year. I can imagine if you did a turbo this number would be much larger. My fuel economy went up. I went from 20mpg to around 26-27. So that was a welcome surprise/change.
09-08-2017, 05:39 PM
#14
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Maintenance - not as bad as you might think if you use an indy. All the work on my RS is done by indy's. I see zero reason to go to the dealer for things like oil, brakes, tires, etc. I went back in my records on my RS:
Brake fluid change (inc. Endless) - $240
Brake pad change - $360 labor plus the pads (Pagid RS29 are expensive track pads - they were $800)
Oil change (inc. Mobil One or Xcess) - $300 (average of three different places I've had it done)
Tire "rotation" (flipping them side to side/remounting) - $66 (note: center locks are a pain to deal with)
Doesn't seem crazy bad to me.
CPO - totally worth it. I've owned a bunch of 911s and none have had issues but the CPO is comforting. It's transferable on private sale which is awesome.
Depreciation - it costs money to drive a Porsche. I'd more or less believe KBB. There's plenty of data on used 911s. It's not like trying to guess at future values on GT cars. You're numbers seem more or less in the ballpark to me. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, but I wouldn't count on it
Brake fluid change (inc. Endless) - $240
Brake pad change - $360 labor plus the pads (Pagid RS29 are expensive track pads - they were $800)
Oil change (inc. Mobil One or Xcess) - $300 (average of three different places I've had it done)
Tire "rotation" (flipping them side to side/remounting) - $66 (note: center locks are a pain to deal with)
Doesn't seem crazy bad to me.
CPO - totally worth it. I've owned a bunch of 911s and none have had issues but the CPO is comforting. It's transferable on private sale which is awesome.
Depreciation - it costs money to drive a Porsche. I'd more or less believe KBB. There's plenty of data on used 911s. It's not like trying to guess at future values on GT cars. You're numbers seem more or less in the ballpark to me. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, but I wouldn't count on it
09-08-2017, 05:49 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
If you do it all yourself. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the OP, who drives a leased S3 and has never owned a sports car, probably isn't going to being doing his own brake flushes, tire changes, etc. Dealer maintenance for a Porsche is similar to a colonoscopy without the anesthesia.