"Don't sell your GTS"
07-23-2017, 12:11 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
This is the most ridiculous statement I've read in a LONG time on here. If anything, dealers are trying to talk you into a trade to buy a NEW car. They're having a tough time getting enough CPO inventory, and you're telling me they'd turn down a sale with a trade in???
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I know a guy, that knows a guy that said almost the same thing. He also recommended a really good oil.
07-23-2017, 12:50 AM
#17
Drifting
It's a keeper, alright. The 991.1 GTS is the last and most powerful iteration of the non-GT NA Carreras. I do think that a decade or so from now - maybe sooner - the NA Carreras will be sought after much like the air cooled Carreras. Porsche's move to turbos in the Carreras was not by choice but by necessity. In going turbo, Porsche has gotten in line with most other sports car makers. The NA engine set Porsche apart from its competition. I am glad that the NA engine is still available (for now) in the GT line. I am in line for a 991.2 MT GT3 allotment but I am not parting ways with my PDK GTS cabriolet because - among many other things - it makes a great daily driver, it is great for road trips, and it is a blast to let it rip with the top down along the Pacific Coast Highway and on the abundant twisty mountain roads in So Cal. Of course, this could be said for any 911, but the way the NA engine builds to a crescendo and the glorious sound it makes as you push it about 5,000 rpms is something special.
07-23-2017, 01:51 AM
#18
Banned
Originally Posted by Porsche911GTS'16
it makes a great daily driver, it is great for road trips, and it is a blast to let it rip with the top down along the Pacific Coast Highway and on the abundant twisty mountain roads in So Cal. Of course, this could be said for any 911, but the way the NA engine builds to a crescendo and the glorious sound it makes as you push it about 5,000 rpms is something special.
07-23-2017, 03:35 AM
#19
If they hadn't stuck a manual in the new GT3 I could have been "done". But just when I thought I was out, they pull me right back in...
07-23-2017, 08:17 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
How I this for crazy.
I am in the process of trying to sell both my 2015 GT3 and my 2015 GTS 4 Cab.
My GTS Cab was 10K euro cheaper than my GT3. It has 10K more kms than my GT3.....but right now....its worth 10K euro more that my GT3.
So you can now buy a GT3 with less kms on the clock for less money than a GTS. How crazy is that? I know what I would prefer.
I am in the process of trying to sell both my 2015 GT3 and my 2015 GTS 4 Cab.
My GTS Cab was 10K euro cheaper than my GT3. It has 10K more kms than my GT3.....but right now....its worth 10K euro more that my GT3.
So you can now buy a GT3 with less kms on the clock for less money than a GTS. How crazy is that? I know what I would prefer.
07-23-2017, 08:37 AM
#21
Nordschleife Master
How I this for crazy.
I am in the process of trying to sell both my 2015 GT3 and my 2015 GTS 4 Cab.
My GTS Cab was 10K euro cheaper than my GT3. It has 10K more kms than my GT3.....but right now....its worth 10K euro more that my GT3.
So you can now buy a GT3 with less kms on the clock for less money than a GTS. How crazy is that? I know what I would prefer.
I am in the process of trying to sell both my 2015 GT3 and my 2015 GTS 4 Cab.
My GTS Cab was 10K euro cheaper than my GT3. It has 10K more kms than my GT3.....but right now....its worth 10K euro more that my GT3.
So you can now buy a GT3 with less kms on the clock for less money than a GTS. How crazy is that? I know what I would prefer.
07-23-2017, 08:54 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
I am a victim of bad timing. Right now across Europe there are over 300 GT3s for sale with most coming onto the market in last 8 weeks. Many as a result of current owners selling their GT3.1 because they have a new GT3.2 incoming....just like me.
Last edited by Chris3963; 07-23-2017 at 09:37 AM.
07-23-2017, 09:28 AM
#23
I secondly strongly agree with your comments about the T4 GTS. I read a lot about oh the extra weight of the Targa will kill your handling but I will never get to that threshold where would matter. I think a lot of buyers pass on the extra fun and style simply because its a little heavier than the coupe.
07-23-2017, 10:27 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Targas give roughly the same skidpad numbers that coupes do. Car and Driver, for example, has the 2017 Targa 4S at 1.04g vs. 1.06g for a base coupe. That's within the margin of error for testing, and not comparable to the 10% extra weight. Why is this?
Mass decreases your acceleration. It does not decrease your car's ability to hold lateral G's. Or rather, at it's not a simple relationship, the way power/weight is.
On car boards, "everyone knows" that weight affects handling, the way "everyone knew" that heavier objects fell faster than lighter ones, prior to Galileo. It's intuitively obvious. Problem is, that's not how the physics works.
When you turn, you're using the force of lateral friction on your car's tires to exert force on your car, which is what changes your car's vector. This is an absolute limit on how hard you can turn, how much lateral force your tires can withstand before they lose grip.
This force depends on the contact area between your tires and the road, the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road, and the downward force exerted on your tires. Weight increases that downward force, and increases the total lateral force your tires can exert. It also increases the amount of force required to change your vector by the same amount.
Many car enthusiasts talk about the amount of "downforce" exerted by a rear wing, and never stop to think that weight also increases downforce. Granted, force from a wing only increases downforce, and not the mass of the car, so it doesn't also increase the force required to turn the car, but still the whole point is to increase the force on the tires and hence the lateral friction.
Cornering isn't entirely that simple because there are other ways your car can fail at the limit. Body roll, for example. Low center of gravity helps here. You can also actively fight body roll by exerting force with compressed air (which is what PASM does). Increased mass increases the amount of force you need to actively fight roll.
Still, the mass of a car isn't nearly the major factor that people think it is, and the skidpad numbers bear it out.
07-23-2017, 10:37 AM
#26
If you think hanging on to your 991.1 gts is a good idea from a valuation standpoint, I think you are right but you won't realize any material appreciation for 15 or 20 years. They might hold up well but you won't make money on the car for a while - eventually you will for sure.
Other than that in almost every category of performance (except subjectively sound) the 991.2 is superior so do what want. Either way its personal preference. Also saying the 991.2 is sterile is stupid (yes I guess I am saying someone is stupid but in this context only). Nothing sterile about that car - its a beast!
Other than that in almost every category of performance (except subjectively sound) the 991.2 is superior so do what want. Either way its personal preference. Also saying the 991.2 is sterile is stupid (yes I guess I am saying someone is stupid but in this context only). Nothing sterile about that car - its a beast!
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XLR82XS (03-25-2021)
07-23-2017, 10:37 AM
#27
I think the simpler question is, if you have a passenger and a couple pieces of luggage in your non-Targa 911, can you tell the difference in the handling characteristics of your car? Does it make is slower and frustratingly undrivable? I mean c'mon guys, that's about the weight difference we're talking about here. I love my Targa's looks and performance characteristics. It's an amazing car. And to me, the styling is the best looking car in the 911 range. I was just saying (again) to my wife yesterday how much I love it. She may have gotten a little jealous. :-)
07-23-2017, 10:37 AM
#28
This is a persistent myth that drives me a bit nuts, and for some reason I feel motivated to tilt at that particular windmill again.
Targas give roughly the same skidpad numbers that coupes do. Car and Driver, for example, has the 2017 Targa 4S at 1.04g vs. 1.06g for a base coupe. That's within the margin of error for testing, and not comparable to the 10% extra weight. Why is this?
Mass decreases your acceleration. It does not decrease your car's ability to hold lateral G's. Or rather, at it's not a simple relationship, the way power/weight is.
On car boards, "everyone knows" that weight affects handling, the way "everyone knew" that heavier objects fell faster than lighter ones, prior to Galileo. It's intuitively obvious. Problem is, that's not how the physics works.
When you turn, you're using the force of lateral friction on your car's tires to exert force on your car, which is what changes your car's vector. This is an absolute limit on how hard you can turn, how much lateral force your tires can withstand before they lose grip.
This force depends on the contact area between your tires and the road, the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road, and the downward force exerted on your tires. Weight increases that downward force, and increases the total lateral force your tires can exert. It also increases the amount of force required to change your vector by the same amount.
Many car enthusiasts talk about the amount of "downforce" exerted by a rear wing, and never stop to think that weight also increases downforce. Granted, force from a wing only increases downforce, and not the mass of the car, so it doesn't also increase the force required to turn the car, but still the whole point is to increase the force on the tires and hence the lateral friction.
Cornering isn't entirely that simple because there are other ways your car can fail at the limit. Body roll, for example. Low center of gravity helps here. You can also actively fight body roll by exerting force with compressed air (which is what PASM does). Increased mass increases the amount of force you need to actively fight roll.
Still, the mass of a car isn't nearly the major factor that people think it is, and the skidpad numbers bear it out.
Targas give roughly the same skidpad numbers that coupes do. Car and Driver, for example, has the 2017 Targa 4S at 1.04g vs. 1.06g for a base coupe. That's within the margin of error for testing, and not comparable to the 10% extra weight. Why is this?
Mass decreases your acceleration. It does not decrease your car's ability to hold lateral G's. Or rather, at it's not a simple relationship, the way power/weight is.
On car boards, "everyone knows" that weight affects handling, the way "everyone knew" that heavier objects fell faster than lighter ones, prior to Galileo. It's intuitively obvious. Problem is, that's not how the physics works.
When you turn, you're using the force of lateral friction on your car's tires to exert force on your car, which is what changes your car's vector. This is an absolute limit on how hard you can turn, how much lateral force your tires can withstand before they lose grip.
This force depends on the contact area between your tires and the road, the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road, and the downward force exerted on your tires. Weight increases that downward force, and increases the total lateral force your tires can exert. It also increases the amount of force required to change your vector by the same amount.
Many car enthusiasts talk about the amount of "downforce" exerted by a rear wing, and never stop to think that weight also increases downforce. Granted, force from a wing only increases downforce, and not the mass of the car, so it doesn't also increase the force required to turn the car, but still the whole point is to increase the force on the tires and hence the lateral friction.
Cornering isn't entirely that simple because there are other ways your car can fail at the limit. Body roll, for example. Low center of gravity helps here. You can also actively fight body roll by exerting force with compressed air (which is what PASM does). Increased mass increases the amount of force you need to actively fight roll.
Still, the mass of a car isn't nearly the major factor that people think it is, and the skidpad numbers bear it out.
I'll take the other side of that argument.
Handling is much more than a steady state skid pad number. Weight is critical and vital to handling, transitions, feel, etc. Actually my take on it is while the acceleration numbers are close, it's actually the handling that suffers just as much if not more. Also where does the Targa have more weight ?
I'm guessing here that the added weight is up, and towards the rear. While the 911 handles so well because of the weight bias to the rear, there is such a thing as too much weight on the rear of the car.
Targa is a BEAUTIFUL car, and if you aren't at 8, 9 or 10 tenths it probably doesn't matter.
07-23-2017, 11:46 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
Sigh. This is the response I usually get, a bald assertion that "weight is vital to handing," the intuitive response that ignores physics and actual measurements. Based on, well, nothing really, other that what people expect weight to do.
Your "guess" as to weight distribution is wrong. Weight distribution is almost exactly the same, 38% / 62% for both cars according to Motor Trend. While the roof-eating robot arms are in the back, the AWD system's weight is largely front biased, since it's things like a driveshaft delivering power to the front wheels, a front differential, and a AWD coupling that's roughly centered.
If you step back and look at the larger picture, take a look at the Panamera Turbo. It's over 1000 lbs heavier than a 911, yet it's within spitting distance of the 991 in handling, and better than the 997 generation.
The 2017 Panamera Turbo did the Nurburgring in 7:38. The 997 GT3 did it in 7:40, 2 seconds slower. The power/weight is 0.125 HP / pound for the Panamera, and 0.135 HP / pound for the GT3, due to the 1,300 pound difference.
Seriously, weight doesn't work the way people think it does.
Your "guess" as to weight distribution is wrong. Weight distribution is almost exactly the same, 38% / 62% for both cars according to Motor Trend. While the roof-eating robot arms are in the back, the AWD system's weight is largely front biased, since it's things like a driveshaft delivering power to the front wheels, a front differential, and a AWD coupling that's roughly centered.
If you step back and look at the larger picture, take a look at the Panamera Turbo. It's over 1000 lbs heavier than a 911, yet it's within spitting distance of the 991 in handling, and better than the 997 generation.
The 2017 Panamera Turbo did the Nurburgring in 7:38. The 997 GT3 did it in 7:40, 2 seconds slower. The power/weight is 0.125 HP / pound for the Panamera, and 0.135 HP / pound for the GT3, due to the 1,300 pound difference.
Seriously, weight doesn't work the way people think it does.