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I'm sure it's been covered but can anyone let me know how bad they miss the old manual transmission when buying these new turbos... Or is the car just that fantastic that I won't miss grinding through the gears.
For a “weekend” / “toy” car I missed the manual. I kept the TT and bought a 718 MT.
For a DD the PDK is fantastic. In general PDK is fantastic. Driven like a manual, including use of paddle neutral, you don’t miss much except for maintaining skill in rev-matching.
And, once you get enough power for sub-3-second 0-60, a manual is counter productive in some cases.
If you can have only one, use case determines which.
I'll never lose my passion for a manual transmission in a 2-seat sports car, but the 911 Turbo S is the first car I can say is better with an "automatic." The power is so astonishing and it spools to redline so quickly, PDK is the only rational choice for that model, even if there was a manual transaxle capable of handling the tremendous amount of torque the 3.8 twin-turbo produces.
However, as long as they are available, I'll keep a 2-seat manual sports car in our stable. Our current MX-5 ND2 is blast to row gears with, and it's great to go back and forth.
After 4 Porsche TT’ manuals i got my 991 TTS which was only available in PDK.
I think you always miss the manual but once you get used to how good the PDK is the regrets disappear, at least in my case. I drive it in manual and really appreciate the quick and precise gear changes just not possible in a true manual. Love the PDK.
I now have 3 Porsches with 2 pedal manuals.
I was stupid to wait so many Porsches to make the switch from 3 pedal manuals to 2 pedal manuals.
Never again will my Porsches have 3 pedal manuals!
I now have 3 Porsches with 2 pedal manuals.
I was stupid to wait so many Porsches to make the switch from 3 pedal manuals to 2 pedal manuals.
Never again will my Porsches have 3 pedal manuals!
Any car with an automatic shift mode and only 2 pedals is an automatic. Even torque converter automatics have had manual modes for years.
I love driving and paddling my PDK Turbo S in manual mode as much as anyone, but the 3-pedal experience and H-motion gear-shifting in lesser cars is still a very enjoyable experience, for a dwindling number of enthusiasts.
Manuals don't have automatic modes, and I enjoy putting in the extra work in striving for that "perfect shift." It's fleeting, and I'm smooth, but PDK-like perfection is nearly impossible. However, working very hard for it is quite satisfying for me, and only for fewer and fewer of us.
Any car with an automatic shift mode and only 2 pedals is an automatic. Even torque converter automatics have had manual modes for years.
Yes, but they all - except for PDK in Porsche’s sports cars - suck. And it’s not the hardware (mostly) it’s the firmware. It is my opinion that PDK firmware was developed by engineers that loved manuals and that the firmware in all others (e.g. BMW DCT, Merc MCT, Audi DSG (and Porsche’s Macan “PDK” which is really DSG), etc.), was developed by “engineers” that ride the bus to work.
I wouldn't say all. The ZF8 in Jaguar F-Types were tuned such that they are almost indistinguishable from the PDK in terms of shift lag (e.g. lightning fast). I've driven ZF8s in other cars that had much more lag and tuned more for a smoother luxury ride. It's all in the tuning.
Moreover, the Tremec DCT transaxle developed for the C8 (new in 2020) is very, very close to the PDK. Unfortunately, GM has had the same teething problems as early PDKs did. If you get a good one, which we did in our C8, they're great, but we've only put 11K miles on it. We'll see if it is as reliable as the PDK long-term.
I frequently drive our Turbo S and C8 back-to-back, and if I could be blindfolded and with no engine noise, I wouldn't be able to tell which is which from shifting alone. The Tremec DCT is every bit as lightning fast on shifts as the PDK.
I'll never lose my passion for a manual transmission in a 2-seat sports car, but the 911 Turbo S is the first car I can say is better with an "automatic." The power is so astonishing and it spools to redline so quickly, PDK is the only rational choice for that model, even if there was a manual transaxle capable of handling the tremendous amount of torque the 3.8 twin-turbo produces.
However, as long as they are available, I'll keep a 2-seat manual sports car in our stable. Our current MX-5 ND2 is blast to row gears with, and it's great to go back and forth.
I agree with this. I think the 911 TT's - apart from the 992 SC (which was detuned pretty heavily power wise) - have all been PDK since 2012 I believe. I think that a 718 Spyder or 4.0 in MT would be a great addition to a TT/S. I keep speccing one out. Just have no space and the wife says we don't need any more cars .
I wouldn't say all. The ZF8 in Jaguar F-Types were tuned such that they are almost indistinguishable from the PDK in terms of shift lag (e.g. lightning fast). I've driven ZF8s in other cars that had much more lag and tuned more for a smoother luxury ride. It's all in the tuning.
Moreover, the Tremec DCT transaxle developed for the C8 (new in 2020) is very, very close to the PDK. Unfortunately, GM has had the same teething problems as early PDKs did. If you get a good one, which we did in our C8, they're great, but we've only put 11K miles on it. We'll see if it is as reliable as the PDK long-term.
I frequently drive our Turbo S and C8 back-to-back, and if I could be blindfolded and with no engine noise, I wouldn't be able to tell which is which from shifting alone. The Tremec DCT is every bit as lightning fast on shifts as the PDK.
I haven’t “tested” a C8 yet. Maybe GM/Tremec got it perfect right out of the gate (LoL. Riiiight…)
But, you seem focused on lightning-quick shifts.
That’s not a metric high on my list for how I rate a “manumatic” gearbox. For me my higher metrics are, in no particular order:
- does it begin the shift *right* when I tell it to? Or does it need to twiddle its ones and zeros for a while before it decides? (MCT and every slushbox-based “automanual”)
- does it actually rev-match or does it drag the clutch pack? (VAG DSG, Macan PDK.)
- is the speed/harshness consistent with driving ‘enthusiasm” conditions? Or does it always slam your head? (SMG)
- can you select neutral from the paddles? (So far, only Porsche’s sport car PDK (and PDK-S) has this AFAIK.)
But, I haven’t tested them all. And some - BMW - in a long, long time ‘cause I don’t care about BMW at all anymore. The E90 M-DCT wasn’t really bad, but it was no PDK.
Whether the shift completion time at WOT is 20 ms or 40 ms… don’t care that much. It’s way faster than I shift 3-pedal 99.99% of the time.
I haven’t “tested” a C8 yet. Maybe GM/Tremec got it perfect right out of the gate (LoL. Riiiight…)
But, you seem focused on lightning-quick shifts.
That’s not a metric high on my list for how I rate a “manumatic” gearbox. For me my higher metrics are, in no particular order:
- does it begin the shift *right* when I tell it to? Or does it need to twiddle its ones and zeros for a while before it decides? (MCT and every slushbox-based “automanual”)
- does it actually rev-match or does it drag the clutch pack? (VAG DSG, Macan PDK.)
- is the speed/harshness consistent with driving ‘enthusiasm” conditions? Or does it always slam your head? (SMG)
- can you select neutral from the paddles? (So far, only Porsche’s sport car PDK (and PDK-S) has this AFAIK.)
But, I haven’t tested them all. And some - BMW - in a long, long time ‘cause I don’t care about BMW at all anymore. The E90 M-DCT wasn’t really bad, but it was no PDK.
Whether the shift completion time at WOT is 20 ms or 40 ms… don’t care that much. It’s way faster than I shift 3-pedal 99.99% of the time.
No, I'm not focused exclusively upon lightning-fast shifts. I would say the C8 Tremec DCT performs almost exactly like the PDK. The quickness and firmness of shifts is dependent upon drive modes like PDK, which in C8 world means, Weather, Tour, Sport, and Track. It seems to rev-match perfectly.
Pulling and holding both paddles puts it in N until you let go.
When it's working well, it is as good as the PDK, and mine has been flawless in 11K miles. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have had problems, and the Corvette forums are full of stories from folks who have had them replaced, sometimes waiting a long time a replacement.
… I would say the C8 Tremec DCT performs almost exactly like the PDK. The quickness and firmness of shifts is dependent upon drive modes like PDK, which in C8 world means, Weather, Tour, Sport, and Track. It seems to rev-match perfectly.
Pulling and holding both paddles puts it in N until you let go.
Well that’s good to know!
Originally Posted by Foosh
When it's working well, it is as good as the PDK, and mine has been flawless in 11K miles. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have had problems, and the Corvette forums are full of stories from folks who have had them replaced, sometimes waiting a long time a replacement.
So, it seems like GM got the performance characteristics right but didn’t shake out all the bugs in the new-to-them tech. It’s parr for the course. Corvette volume correlates with the level and volume on the ‘horror’ stories.
C8 lost me on looks and HMI. But, that LT6 (Z06) engine can wash away a lot of sins. You know: butter face. Lol.
In any case knowing that the C8 DCT should not be aggravating once they get the bugs out makes the Z06 more interesting to me.
Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed in the C8 design as well. My biggest gripe is way too much "junk in the trunk." A big trunk that could hold up to two golf bags was identified early on as a design pre-requisite to satisfy the Corvette demographic. A more tapered look (a la Ferrari) with a much lower and smaller trunk, or even none at all, would have been far more attractive.
It's just too tall and deep, which they had to do to get the space they wanted, and in addition to other cargo, they wanted to be able to store the removable coupe targa top in the trunk. On the convertible (HTC), the top folds on top of the engine, so that requirement disappears.
In addition, body-colored trim makes the design look less chopped up, which is what we chose on our HTC.
On the DCT, the Corvette engineers used the PDK as the benchmark that they wanted to emulate with the new transmission, and as I said earlier, when it is working as it should, I think they were totally successful. It also appears that they are getting their problems sorted out by model year 5.
06-10-2024, 05:48 PM
Manual to PDK still happy?
