Turbo S future
09-26-2019, 10:18 AM
#31
And that is what you will have to do. It isn't just the performance (although you are correct it is a massive factor) - it is the next generation, who do not look at cars (at least to the same percentage of population) that we did. I spoke with two 16 year olds about how excited they must be to get their licenses (as I was) - nope - they looked at me like; "who needs a car?". I said - freedom - the open road - performance - fun etc...they said; "Uber". It's a travel mechanism for many of this new generation - nothing more. Manual is not living in that climate. Manual is of course more involving as it involves another limb lol. That said - to your point - performance is king these days (always has been for me) - and manuals are slower versus their DCT counterparts. I have owned at least one manual car all of my driving live - and that just changed after the purchase of my Turbo S. I haven't missed it yet.
^Extremely well said.
^Extremely well said.
Some additional perspective...in the 80s I worked at a large tech company and I looked at my peers who were working on this new thing called PCs...the seemed to be a bunch of nerds and in my mind they were gadgets/toys unlike the big iron i was working on. While I did ok in the end, some of those same nerds became millionaires at a very young age....after that I vowed I will always be an early adopter of change regardless of my personal emotions.
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AlexCeres (10-16-2019)
09-26-2019, 05:48 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Some additional perspective about technology and how we the Porsche community react....when the 991.1 GT3 Cars came out remember how upset everyone was that manual wasn't an option. Then Porsche reacted producing the limited R with MT. Those who were lucky to get them don't even drive them. Still Porsche wanted to make it's customers happy and the .2 gt3 was available in MT and guess what? It was 0.8 slower than PDK....I would love to see the sales numbers but few if any of the folks I know that bought a .2 gt3 bought it with MT especially those who track. Now I don't see any debate on the topic. The same was true with electronic vs hydraulic steering.. I see no debates on that anymore. I expect the same about ICE vs EV. So how do I see it. Human nature is such that we reject anything that goes against what we are used to, until we have it...then that becomes our new norm.
Some additional perspective...in the 80s I worked at a large tech company and I looked at my peers who were working on this new thing called PCs...the seemed to be a bunch of nerds and in my mind they were gadgets/toys unlike the big iron i was working on. While I did ok in the end, some of those same nerds became millionaires at a very young age....after that I vowed I will always be an early adopter of change regardless of my personal emotions.
Some additional perspective...in the 80s I worked at a large tech company and I looked at my peers who were working on this new thing called PCs...the seemed to be a bunch of nerds and in my mind they were gadgets/toys unlike the big iron i was working on. While I did ok in the end, some of those same nerds became millionaires at a very young age....after that I vowed I will always be an early adopter of change regardless of my personal emotions.
10-03-2019, 09:54 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
1. There is a rush to embrace electric, but does it really solve many people's problem? I think it's mostly just for people who want to be early for just the sake of being early adopters. Look, all new things are not always 100% great. Sometimes, it's just the latest new thing. As mention earlier, car companies are all pumping out EV's and Hybrids at an alarming growing rate, because governments are toying with the supply/demand market. It's going to be ugly when there are 3 year old new EVs on dealer lots. Therefore, the marketing and hype is off the charts for this product.
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
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the_buch (10-10-2019)
10-03-2019, 10:40 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
1. There is a rush to embrace electric, but does it really solve many people's problem? I think it's mostly just for people who want to be early for just the sake of being early adopters. Look, all new things are not always 100% great. Sometimes, it's just the latest new thing. As mention earlier, car companies are all pumping out EV's and Hybrids at an alarming growing rate, because governments are toying with the supply/demand market. It's going to be ugly when there are 3 year old new EVs on dealer lots. Therefore, the marketing and hype is off the charts for this product.
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
10-03-2019, 11:19 PM
#36
Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either.
10-04-2019, 11:19 PM
#37
1. There is a rush to embrace electric, but does it really solve many people's problem? I think it's mostly just for people who want to be early for just the sake of being early adopters. Look, all new things are not always 100% great. Sometimes, it's just the latest new thing. As mention earlier, car companies are all pumping out EV's and Hybrids at an alarming growing rate, because governments are toying with the supply/demand market. It's going to be ugly when there are 3 year old new EVs on dealer lots. Therefore, the marketing and hype is off the charts for this product.
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
2. The petroleum infrastructure and business model is too strong, compared to random charging stations strung everywhere ***** nilly. I want quick options when it's time to refill. The cost for a private charging industry is prohibitive in the USA. Many people don't have the option to install some monstrous and very expensive built-in home charging station, either. I will need a car for both the suburbs and long distance, and it had better be FUN to drive. When I need fuel, it had better be easy to find anywhere, and take no longer than refilling my Double Gulp of Diet Coke inside the store. I don't see gas stations turning over to charging stations (consider the capital costs) anytime soon. Sure, some will be adding a couple of chargers, but that's going to be very expensive compared to the current subsidized rates. (Hint: charging stations can't schedule another electricity delivery every couple of days. It's going to require wholesale infrastructure changes, and who's paying for that? With what money? How's it going to be recouped?)
3. Uber/Lyft are a joke. They cannot possibly make any money, and will only make money when they charge more (and also pay drivers more)...killing the original idea and probably the business model. Somebody needs to develop an Uberish app that lets anybody put themselves out for rides, and they keep all the money, not a home office someplace getting a 30% cut. Ratings alone will dictate who is safe and who's not - don't take a ride from a 1 star! That's the only way ride sharing has a future. Kids will be driving something again, within just a few years, as will more younger people.
4. It's nearing impossible to build any more coal/natural gas electric plants. Nuclear is not looking acceptable to the green crowd, either. When will we have enough solar and wind to power all these EV users? How do we get all the new power to the existing grid?
5. The things weigh 5000+ pounds! I know the battery industry, and we're improving but not at a pace that can do much anytime in the next decade or more. I have no interest in a heavy car that cannot turn or do a 20 minute track session (without being spent for the day)
6. Formula E? I can't bring myself to watch it anymore. Changing cars mid-race? Fuel efficient tires? The whole thing is just a marketing stunt by the car manufacturers that are terrified you won't buy up all of the EV's they have scheduled to build over the next 10 years. Everyone is following everyone else in the car business, trying to one-up each others's grand plans. I don't see a market growth figure that makes this at all possible.
7. Lest we forget, the market for used EVs is new and scarry, and soon we will begin seeing more cars ready for the landfills! That's going to be very, very ugly...and it's coming up sooner than later. Hybrids seem to fare better, but those batteries are only really good for 5-7 years, too. We're going to have 500,000 cars needing new batteries a year starting in 2026 at the latest.
OK, some of this is answering more than the OP asked, and some is theoretical challenges that I do know can/will be solved. Bottom line, I don't see myself getting any EV for these reasons within the next 20 years. Honestly, I'm skeptical that full EV is the future, even though everybody says it is. (Answer my questions above, please) When I'm 75, I might not care about some of these problems anymore, and some will be figured out. I just hope I still have a track car I can drive quickly and safely. Maybe it will be a hybrid??
10-04-2019, 11:39 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
One of my sons just had the Juice Box 40 Pro installed for $1700, including the cost of the permit. The unit size is about 12" by 6". He lives in MD and the State gave him a $700 rebate, and the Gas & Electric company gave him another $300. So his net charge was $700. My son told me that it takes approximately 8 hours to charge the car's battery when it is nearly completely discharged. Granted that each State may not be as generous as MD, but a home charging system isn't that expensive in MD.
10-04-2019, 11:49 PM
#39
Yes, with taxpayer sponsorship, it's not out of reach for many, financially. But what about if it's a rental house, apartment, condo, second house, parents house or someplace else that you can't do that kind of major improvement? How long are taxpayer handouts going to last, too? (It's not a matter of being generous, because it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. If every one of the 2,156,411 households in MD all got the credit, is the state going to dole out $1.5 billion?)
10-05-2019, 10:26 AM
#40
Instructor
No government has money. We the people give it to them, so MD isn't paying, chumps like me who live here are paying. EV handouts can't last forever. Industries must support themselves, and without the crazy taxes supporting EV's, they wouldn't be here today. Diesel is the best economical choice, but because of VW, that is now taboo.
10-05-2019, 10:48 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
No government has money. We the people give it to them, so MD isn't paying, chumps like me who live here are paying. EV handouts can't last forever. Industries must support themselves, and without the crazy taxes supporting EV's, they wouldn't be here today. Diesel is the best economical choice, but because of VW, that is now taboo.
10-06-2019, 01:47 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
,,,
Some additional perspective...in the 80s I worked at a large tech company and I looked at my peers who were working on this new thing called PCs...the seemed to be a bunch of nerds and in my mind they were gadgets/toys unlike the big iron i was working on. While I did ok in the end, some of those same nerds became millionaires at a very young age....after that I vowed I will always be an early adopter of change regardless of my personal emotions.
Some additional perspective...in the 80s I worked at a large tech company and I looked at my peers who were working on this new thing called PCs...the seemed to be a bunch of nerds and in my mind they were gadgets/toys unlike the big iron i was working on. While I did ok in the end, some of those same nerds became millionaires at a very young age....after that I vowed I will always be an early adopter of change regardless of my personal emotions.
Car and Driver should copyright "Car no Driver" name. Later to be "No car, no driver" Taycan Turbo S should be called Taycan E-Boost With all the technology changes, Turbo S in one or another form will stay with me.. And, yes, I like PDK in my TTS better than I would a MT in that car, however, I always keep a MT car in my garage. I am sure I will buy an EV one day perhaps a Taycan or Tesla roadster. or who knows what.. I like try new things, but only when I like to do so. On a business side, sure, better be an early adopter, on a personal side I'd rather do what I enjoy. .
10-06-2019, 02:08 AM
#43
10-09-2019, 03:18 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
I'm starting to get a bit nervous about the future of our wonderful cars, specifically the 911 Turbo S. With the performance of the Taycan Turbo S, it won't be long before a hybrid 911 or electric 911 will outdo anything to date in the octane engine, except for 24 hour endurance. I love my gas eating Turbo S, but the future doesn't bode well for gas guzzling power. I'm curious how others are viewing the value of today's automobiles as electric technology becomes the norm in racing and daily driving. Thanks for your input.
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onfireTTS (10-09-2019)