Dundon Motorsports 991 GT3RS on the dyno!
06-02-2016, 08:09 AM
#17
You actually have customers who are willing to do an ECU tune? Pretty risky.
Great work guys
06-02-2016, 09:41 AM
#19
Stupid question: if I would get the headers and tune this would ofcourse affect the warranty, but is the tune traceable, can it be easily switched to stock without the dealer noticing?
Thanks in advance!
Thanks in advance!
06-02-2016, 10:39 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
If you are concerned about your warranty please see our Software Control Module which is undetectable, FVD Part # FVD 991 618 01."
06-02-2016, 11:24 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Can you also make it spit out flames on demand?
06-02-2016, 01:04 PM
#22
Regardless of the tuner package.......here's a statement to consider from one manufacturer (FVD)
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
If you are concerned about your warranty please see our Software Control Module which is undetectable, FVD Part # FVD 991 618 01."
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
If you are concerned about your warranty please see our Software Control Module which is undetectable, FVD Part # FVD 991 618 01."
06-02-2016, 01:25 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Hothonda
Regardless of the tuner package.......here's a statement to consider from one manufacturer (FVD)
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturerÂ’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
If you are concerned about your warranty please see our Software Control Module which is undetectable, FVD Part # FVD 991 618 01."
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturerÂ’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
If you are concerned about your warranty please see our Software Control Module which is undetectable, FVD Part # FVD 991 618 01."
06-02-2016, 01:52 PM
#24
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Dundon actually uses a new ecu. They copy your ecu and then write there program over it. So you get to keep your stock ecu and install theirs. I do wonder still if Porsche could detect when you reinstall the the stock ecu that it's lacking run time to match the car.
Sort of the big elephant in the room.
06-02-2016, 02:52 PM
#25
06-02-2016, 02:52 PM
#26
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Any tune is traceable, never claimed it to be otherwise.
Regardless of the tuner package.......here's a statement to consider from one manufacturer (FVD)
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
"
"REVERSIBLE – FVD Software is completely reversible for dealer service / diagnostics. We supply you with your TRUE Original OEM Porsche® file as well as the FVD Brombacher Tuned File.
If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s warranty, regardless of what other tuners may or may not tell you, once you flash a car with ANY software file including ours, the manufacturer can tell that the car has been flashed. And that includes if you have the ability to write the car back to stock with the OEM file that ourselves or a tuner gives you.
"
This is why we wanted our systems to work without a tune. The tune is an option for those that want the most and we've tried to set it up so that it's as innocuous as possible.
And many dealerships have done warranty "good will" service on guys with Turbo's pushing 2x factory boost levels. Not saying that your dealer will but it comes down to relationship...
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Dundon actually uses a new ecu. They copy your ecu and then write there program over it. So you get to keep your stock ecu and install theirs. I do wonder still if Porsche could detect when you reinstall the the stock ecu that it's lacking run time to match the car.
Also keep in mind cloning the ecu is a different operation than putting a new ECU in the car and marrying it. Installing a new ECU is different than what we're doing...
Just spoke to a 15year porsche master tech and the car will think we just removed and replaced the ecu, so no change in run time would be seen or recorded... I'll get the screen shots to show this.
We're trying to provide a service for those that are interested in getting a little more from their cars. This isn't for everyone and this is exactly the reason our products are designed to produce big gains without a tune...
Last edited by Jamie@dundonmotorsports; 06-02-2016 at 03:39 PM.
06-02-2016, 06:26 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
One more time please.......Does the factory ECU learn/adjust/normalize itself back to original performance even after headers/exhaust /intake?
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
↓↓↓↓↓ This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
↓↓↓↓↓ This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
Last edited by Hothonda; 06-02-2016 at 08:54 PM.
06-02-2016, 07:00 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
One more time please.......Does the factory ECU learn/adjust/normalize itself back to original performance even after headers/exhaust /intake?
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
This is a good question. There are several RL guys out there now, I assume after a 6 month period of time, they should now go have another dyno done, then compare. Money Matt........paging Money............
06-02-2016, 09:26 PM
#30
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One more time please.......Does the factory ECU learn/adjust/normalize itself back to original performance even after headers/exhaust /intake?
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
↓↓↓↓↓ This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
Dyno test made immediately after these mods will show some HP + torque gains, but
in a little driving it learns & you are basically back to where you started except your wallet is a lot lighter. Is this correct?
The aftermarket tune is where the power is my understanding - that's why you provide the tuner with the mods you have and they give the appropriate tune.
↓↓↓↓↓ This was the answer I received when I contacted a reputable tuner about bolt on mods v tune:
***************************
In lieu of a tune, what can a Turbo owner expect with bolt ons?
THX
" Honestly very little, The entire point of most engine modifications(exhuast, intercoolers, turbos, etc...) is to increase the mass of air, thus increasing the fuel mass injected. Porsche does such a wonderful job at modeling all of their airflow tables and know the amount of air mass they want going through the motor to obtain a certain power figure in factory form.
Once the actual airflow starts eclipsing that airflow limit, the ecu will compensate by starting to close the throttles. Using the throttle as a means to control air mass, and resulting fuel mass.
This is why as a calibrator it is so vital to have full control over the ecu. Long gone are the days of just needing to find a single ignition timing map, fuel targets, and simple boost control. There are so many redundancies in these ecus now that properly understanding them involves hundreds of hours of reverse engineering and testing."
This is why we see a limit with our headers on the engine, the GT3 made 40whp without a tune, RS made 20whp. The biggest difference was the torque limiters (as your tuner suggested) when you exceed the air flow model the engine will do things to reel it back in. When we put a tune on the car that only massages the torque limiters, we gain 15whp on the GT3 and 20whp on the RS.
A good example of this is our customer with the GT3 in UAE that went to the drags after having the headers on the car for 4 months of consistent driving, races etc... and shaved 0.5sec off his stock times.
So the short answer is no, you're not wasting your money and you will see long term gains without a tune as long as you change the ability of the engine to breathe!