Carbon Ceramic Brake Demystified
03-05-2016, 06:47 AM
#16
I have no doubt ceramics are the future. But I decided against them as I did not want to have to spend every trackday checking them for damage. Even my dealer warned me against them as they'd had to replace them on 4 non-tracked cars within a year. I know there are many ways to prevent them from premature wear, but the hassle far outweighs having a bit of brake dust cleaned off my rims.
Very curious though about the exact time gain on track due to reduced unsprung mass.
Very curious though about the exact time gain on track due to reduced unsprung mass.
Last edited by Mika911; 03-05-2016 at 12:21 PM.
03-05-2016, 10:57 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Even though I'm a bit concerned about ever replacing the pccb rotors, I do enjoy the lack of brake dust. I can drive for a couple days and inner barrel on the rims is still clean.
03-08-2016, 12:13 PM
#19
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Thanks. I'm ignorant on this topic. I hope my questions aren't too basic. But of the 11 measures you have listed, which are most important? For example, how important is flexural bond strength compared to, say, density (and by extension unsprung mass), or maximum operating temperature? I would imagine these are not all of equal importance.
Are there some which are more important in terms of helping fade vs durability, and for applications related to racing vs street use, etc?
Obviously the choice of which rotors to get, also depends on other factors like cost, even brake dust I suppose!
I would really appreciate if you could perhaps help me summarize and condense this data into a rational approach to understanding rotors. Thanks in advance!
Are there some which are more important in terms of helping fade vs durability, and for applications related to racing vs street use, etc?
Obviously the choice of which rotors to get, also depends on other factors like cost, even brake dust I suppose!
I would really appreciate if you could perhaps help me summarize and condense this data into a rational approach to understanding rotors. Thanks in advance!
Out of these measures, green is for CCM and yellow is for CI. If you want me to pick the most remarkable characteristics for CCM that would be # 7 & 9 which relate to the thermal stability (meaning very little volumetric change from temperature variation comparing to iron), which allow you to run brake at higher temperature and still can eliminate the chance of rotor failure (warping/cracking) due to the extreme heat.
You may want to refer to my posting for an ideal design and construction of a two piece iron rotors for the same goal - Iron expands and contracts more (poor thermal stability) than CCM, therefore we need to build into the rotor/hat for stress relief in order to extend rotor life.
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...l#post13086934
A most noticeable advantage is the light weight (about 1/2 of iron), but it's at the cost of running at a higher braking temperature than iron, this is the reason why a CCM system the rotor and pad are always "bigger" than iron.
03-08-2016, 12:23 PM
#20
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
I have no doubt ceramics are the future. But I decided against them as I did not want to have to spend every trackday checking them for damage. Even my dealer warned me against them as they'd had to replace them on 4 non-tracked cars within a year. I know there are many ways to prevent them from premature wear, but the hassle far outweighs having a bit of brake dust cleaned off my rims.
Very curious though about the exact time gain on track due to reduced unsprung mass.
Very curious though about the exact time gain on track due to reduced unsprung mass.
03-08-2016, 12:46 PM
#21
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
The correct terminology for a "Ferrous" rotor is IRON.
Steel can never be used for brake rotor due very venerable to the heat and would warp instantly when subject to an extreme heat.
However it seems easier for people to commonly refer/call the "iron" rotor as "STEEL".
Iron although is fragile in nature comparison to steel but is excellent in handling the heat and absorbing vibration (good damping capacity), so it's still the best material for ferrous brake rotor.
A CCM on the other hand, is a "Non- ferrous" rotor.
Brief description from Wikipedia;
Ferrous:
Outside chemistry, ferrous is an adjective used to indicate the presence of iron. The word is derived from the Latin word ferrum ("iron"). Ferrous metals include steel and pig iron (with a carbon content of a few percent) and alloys of iron with other metals (such as stainless steel).
Non Ferrous:
In metallurgy, a non-ferrous metal is a metal, including alloys, that does not contain iron (ferrite) in appreciable amounts.
Steel can never be used for brake rotor due very venerable to the heat and would warp instantly when subject to an extreme heat.
However it seems easier for people to commonly refer/call the "iron" rotor as "STEEL".
Iron although is fragile in nature comparison to steel but is excellent in handling the heat and absorbing vibration (good damping capacity), so it's still the best material for ferrous brake rotor.
A CCM on the other hand, is a "Non- ferrous" rotor.
Brief description from Wikipedia;
Ferrous:
Outside chemistry, ferrous is an adjective used to indicate the presence of iron. The word is derived from the Latin word ferrum ("iron"). Ferrous metals include steel and pig iron (with a carbon content of a few percent) and alloys of iron with other metals (such as stainless steel).
Non Ferrous:
In metallurgy, a non-ferrous metal is a metal, including alloys, that does not contain iron (ferrite) in appreciable amounts.
03-08-2016, 02:12 PM
#22
The correct terminology for a "Ferrous" rotor is IRON. Steel can never be used for brake rotor due very venerable to the heat and would warp instantly when subject to an extreme heat. However it seems easier for people to commonly refer/call the "iron" rotor as "STEEL". Iron although is fragile in nature comparison to steel but is excellent in handling the heat and absorbing vibration (good damping capacity), so it's still the best material for ferrous brake rotor. A CCM on the other hand, is a "Non- ferrous" rotor. Brief description from Wikipedia; Ferrous: Outside chemistry, ferrous is an adjective used to indicate the presence of iron. The word is derived from the Latin word ferrum ("iron"). Ferrous metals include steel and pig iron (with a carbon content of a few percent) and alloys of iron with other metals (such as stainless steel). Non Ferrous: In metallurgy, a non-ferrous metal is a metal, including alloys, that does not contain iron (ferrite) in appreciable amounts.
03-08-2016, 03:36 PM
#23
Share with you is a research I have done for our CCM brake development.
I have been reading hundreds of threads . . . . {massive snip}
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484
Thank you.
Warren-RB
I have been reading hundreds of threads . . . . {massive snip}
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484
Thank you.
Warren-RB
". . . . one final interesting fact to note regarding the high-heat properties of carbon fiber: we’ve all seen road racing and drag racing vehicles with the brakes glowing under hard or prolonged application, and you’ve probably wondered at what temperature this phenomenon occurs. According to the information supplied to us, at 896 degrees Fahrenheit, the rotors will begin to exhibit a faint red glow. They will then turn dark red and then a bright red before turning bright orange at 1,710 degrees and a pale yellowish orange at 2,010 degrees. Above 2,550 degrees, the brakes will appear white.. . . " and
". . . . , and can also begin to oxidize above 700 degrees. For this reason, oxidization protection systems are commonly utilized.. . ." &
". . . Steel brake wear is proportional to the kinetic energy that the brakes absorb. The vehicle weight and the degree of braking applications directly reduce the life of steel brakes. Small, light applications with ample time to cool between applications will increase their useful life. Carbon fiber brake wear, on the other hand, correlates to the total number of brake applications. One hard application will cause less wear than several smaller applications, and carbon is less privy to weight and speed than steel. It is, in fact, cold stops, rather than heat, that directly leads to more wear in carbon-carbon brakes, . . ."
from http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...e-engineering/
Cheers, mlp