991 GT3 Track Car
11-17-2015, 12:17 AM
#16
True, and the Cup is actually easier to drive at the track than an ordinary GT3, at least from what I hear.
Having said that, there is always the cost difference and the fact that you can't have a passenger (an instructor or coach) with you in the Cup. The tub just isn't built for it.
Having said that, there is always the cost difference and the fact that you can't have a passenger (an instructor or coach) with you in the Cup. The tub just isn't built for it.
11-17-2015, 12:52 AM
#17
GT3 player par excellence
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from reading some of OP's post.
get some safety eqiupment in your 991 and just drive it.
cup car is too much for DE.
you need full on support
who said cup car is easier to drive then street car on track or at the limit? NOPE. it leans less but not easier to drive unless you are slow. a slow cup is easy to drive. a fast cup is not so easy to drive. if you get out and not needing a shower after 10 min in the cockpit, you are likely 20 seconds off pace in a 2 min track!
the current GT3 is way way fast. no need to mod much.
get some safety eqiupment in your 991 and just drive it.
cup car is too much for DE.
you need full on support
who said cup car is easier to drive then street car on track or at the limit? NOPE. it leans less but not easier to drive unless you are slow. a slow cup is easy to drive. a fast cup is not so easy to drive. if you get out and not needing a shower after 10 min in the cockpit, you are likely 20 seconds off pace in a 2 min track!
the current GT3 is way way fast. no need to mod much.
11-17-2015, 01:20 AM
#18
Mooty you are the man... I love your post..
11-17-2015, 12:21 PM
#19
My point is that butchering a GT3 with a cage and other stuff as a "dedicated" track car makes no sense compared to a cup - I had an older 996 Cup and for just track driving, it's not "too much" for DE and was not $8-10K a weekend to run in a DE environment. Start racing and WOW - expensive. Use it as a track car for DE or at a motorsport country club and it's far less expensive, since the 2 sec a lap from crappy tires is no big deal. Here at MotorSport Ranch, those who track 911s either have lightly modified street cars or Cups - you almost never see a caged former street car.
Oh and anyone telling you that you can't put a pax seat in a Cup is not being resourceful or candid; I've not personally checked on the 991, but have done so on 996 and 7s and pax seat is no problem. It's a factory tub to begin with.
As far as economics - take a 991 GT3 - you'll pay say $150K for the car. A cage will set you back probably $8K done really well, and a pair of chairs and harnesses will put you over $10K in just that. Of course the whole car will be heavy and you are stuck with the damned 20" wheels and limited tire choices and much more annoying centerlocks than the Cup. Lots of other annoying stuff like no removable steering wheel and catalytic converters.
Oh and by caging your street car you've ruined the value as it now can't safely be driven on the street as only a fool drives a car with a cage and without a helmet. What buyer wants that? A caged street car is a white elephant, as the street poseurs won't want it and the racers can't use it (Cups can readily be raced PCA, SCCA and in other venues, a caged street car is going to put you in some alphabet soup race class)
On the other hand, on the Cup car forum the ask for 2015 cup I saw is $190K and if you are willing to go 997 Cup (which will be way faster than any caged 991 with 20" wheels) you can get a car for well under a 991 GT3 price. Heck 996 Cups are faster than 991 GT3s on track and well under $100K used.
Cup cars also hold value pretty well and you don't have a big a problem with namby-pambys getting all pissy about how much track time the car has had when you do sell it.
Oh and if you are so serious you want a dedicated track car, surely you are serious enough to understand you need to transport it, not drive it to the track. Heavy track usage means you need to have all manner of spares, most importantly a set of wheels and tires (and rains, too - don't be one of those guys afraid of a little water), so you need a trailer and tire rack, and frankly I'd have basic spares like pads, rotors and any other breakables (e.g. half shafts?). A track car will eventually break, and you want a relatively routine way to get it home, not some kind of emergency flatbed ordeal.
I find it utterly amazing that of caged dedicated late model 911 track cars only 1 in 10 is a cup and the rest are converted from the street. That is surely not my experience at my home track. Lots of Spec Boxters and some older air-cooled 911s converted from street, but 996-up? Any car with a cage is a Cup, with only one exception I can think of (former Grand Am car).
In case I did not make myself clear I think it's foolish to cage a 991 GT3 (or 996-7 for that matter) and defy anyone to explain otherwise.
Oh and anyone telling you that you can't put a pax seat in a Cup is not being resourceful or candid; I've not personally checked on the 991, but have done so on 996 and 7s and pax seat is no problem. It's a factory tub to begin with.
As far as economics - take a 991 GT3 - you'll pay say $150K for the car. A cage will set you back probably $8K done really well, and a pair of chairs and harnesses will put you over $10K in just that. Of course the whole car will be heavy and you are stuck with the damned 20" wheels and limited tire choices and much more annoying centerlocks than the Cup. Lots of other annoying stuff like no removable steering wheel and catalytic converters.
Oh and by caging your street car you've ruined the value as it now can't safely be driven on the street as only a fool drives a car with a cage and without a helmet. What buyer wants that? A caged street car is a white elephant, as the street poseurs won't want it and the racers can't use it (Cups can readily be raced PCA, SCCA and in other venues, a caged street car is going to put you in some alphabet soup race class)
On the other hand, on the Cup car forum the ask for 2015 cup I saw is $190K and if you are willing to go 997 Cup (which will be way faster than any caged 991 with 20" wheels) you can get a car for well under a 991 GT3 price. Heck 996 Cups are faster than 991 GT3s on track and well under $100K used.
Cup cars also hold value pretty well and you don't have a big a problem with namby-pambys getting all pissy about how much track time the car has had when you do sell it.
Oh and if you are so serious you want a dedicated track car, surely you are serious enough to understand you need to transport it, not drive it to the track. Heavy track usage means you need to have all manner of spares, most importantly a set of wheels and tires (and rains, too - don't be one of those guys afraid of a little water), so you need a trailer and tire rack, and frankly I'd have basic spares like pads, rotors and any other breakables (e.g. half shafts?). A track car will eventually break, and you want a relatively routine way to get it home, not some kind of emergency flatbed ordeal.
I find it utterly amazing that of caged dedicated late model 911 track cars only 1 in 10 is a cup and the rest are converted from the street. That is surely not my experience at my home track. Lots of Spec Boxters and some older air-cooled 911s converted from street, but 996-up? Any car with a cage is a Cup, with only one exception I can think of (former Grand Am car).
In case I did not make myself clear I think it's foolish to cage a 991 GT3 (or 996-7 for that matter) and defy anyone to explain otherwise.
11-17-2015, 12:27 PM
#20
from reading some of OP's post.
get some safety eqiupment in your 991 and just drive it.
cup car is too much for DE.
you need full on support
who said cup car is easier to drive then street car on track or at the limit? NOPE. it leans less but not easier to drive unless you are slow. a slow cup is easy to drive. a fast cup is not so easy to drive. if you get out and not needing a shower after 10 min in the cockpit, you are likely 20 seconds off pace in a 2 min track!
the current GT3 is way way fast. no need to mod much.
get some safety eqiupment in your 991 and just drive it.
cup car is too much for DE.
you need full on support
who said cup car is easier to drive then street car on track or at the limit? NOPE. it leans less but not easier to drive unless you are slow. a slow cup is easy to drive. a fast cup is not so easy to drive. if you get out and not needing a shower after 10 min in the cockpit, you are likely 20 seconds off pace in a 2 min track!
the current GT3 is way way fast. no need to mod much.
But also don't be that guy in a Cup pointing any street car by!
11-17-2015, 12:36 PM
#21
It all depends on what type of experience the customer is looking for......of course a Cup is the way to go for ultimate performance but most don't want to go that route due to the cost and the level of commitment it takes.
We prep both at most start out prepping their street car to see how much they like going to the track and then some will take the next step and get into a Cup car.
We do both here and I would say that 1 out of 10 make the jump into a purpose built race car (Cup car).
Any day at the track is a good day, no matter what you are driving.
We prep both at most start out prepping their street car to see how much they like going to the track and then some will take the next step and get into a Cup car.
We do both here and I would say that 1 out of 10 make the jump into a purpose built race car (Cup car).
Any day at the track is a good day, no matter what you are driving.
11-17-2015, 12:40 PM
#22
My point is that butchering a GT3 with a cage and other stuff as a "dedicated" track car makes no sense compared to a cup - I had an older 996 Cup and for just track driving, it's not "too much" for DE and was not $8-10K a weekend to run in a DE environment. Start racing and WOW - expensive. Use it as a track car for DE or at a motorsport country club and it's far less expensive, since the 2 sec a lap from crappy tires is no big deal. Here at MotorSport Ranch, those who track 911s either have lightly modified street cars or Cups - you almost never see a caged former street car. Oh and anyone telling you that you can't put a pax seat in a Cup is not being resourceful or candid; I've not personally checked on the 991, but have done so on 996 and 7s and pax seat is no problem. It's a factory tub to begin with. As far as economics - take a 991 GT3 - you'll pay say $150K for the car. A cage will set you back probably $8K done really well, and a pair of chairs and harnesses will put you over $10K in just that. Of course the whole car will be heavy and you are stuck with the damned 20" wheels and limited tire choices and much more annoying centerlocks than the Cup. Lots of other annoying stuff like no removable steering wheel and catalytic converters. Oh and by caging your street car you've ruined the value as it now can't safely be driven on the street as only a fool drives a car with a cage and without a helmet. What buyer wants that? A caged street car is a white elephant, as the street poseurs won't want it and the racers can't use it (Cups can readily be raced PCA, SCCA and in other venues, a caged street car is going to put you in some alphabet soup race class) On the other hand, on the Cup car forum the ask for 2015 cup I saw is $190K and if you are willing to go 997 Cup (which will be way faster than any caged 991 with 20" wheels) you can get a car for well under a 991 GT3 price. Heck 996 Cups are faster than 991 GT3s on track and well under $100K used. Cup cars also hold value pretty well and you don't have a big a problem with namby-pambys getting all pissy about how much track time the car has had when you do sell it. Oh and if you are so serious you want a dedicated track car, surely you are serious enough to understand you need to transport it, not drive it to the track. Heavy track usage means you need to have all manner of spares, most importantly a set of wheels and tires (and rains, too - don't be one of those guys afraid of a little water), so you need a trailer and tire rack, and frankly I'd have basic spares like pads, rotors and any other breakables (e.g. half shafts?). A track car will eventually break, and you want a relatively routine way to get it home, not some kind of emergency flatbed ordeal. I find it utterly amazing that of caged dedicated late model 911 track cars only 1 in 10 is a cup and the rest are converted from the street. That is surely not my experience at my home track. Lots of Spec Boxters and some older air-cooled 911s converted from street, but 996-up? Any car with a cage is a Cup, with only one exception I can think of (former Grand Am car). In case I did not make myself clear I think it's foolish to cage a 991 GT3 (or 996-7 for that matter) and defy anyone to explain otherwise.
I would never push a 991gt3 on track wearing 3point belt and no roll cage.
11-20-2015, 03:08 AM
#24
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Welding in a full cage is not the route to go.
Going through the painstakenly hard process to gut a street car into a competition car when you can just buy a factory car just dosnt make economic sense.
But alot of racing folks got their start this way. Taking their car down the slippery slope to the point of no return. Lessons learned.
However, Some folks want to track their street car for recreational use and desire more sufficent saftey equipment apart from a roll bar.
Porsche offer a bolt in roll bar and bolt in front cage section in Rest of World GT3.
So the car is a little more suited to high speed track use. Value is not deminished and the car is not cut up but indeed has saftey benefit of full cage.
There are a handfull of 991 GT3's going around like this as well as Cayman GT4s.