Let's imagine a 991RS America..
08-09-2014 | 08:56 PM
#16
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,140
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From: New Zealand
Pete. Its quite possible, just look at what Tuthills are doing below with their new GT3 WRC RSA project.
You just have to get over this thing with it being "new" thats all.
There will be no "new" production PAG product that will be lighter, more simple, lower cost than the last generation production IMO. We are heading into a future of hybrid drivetrains where weight loss will be countered by technology weight. The introduction of blown engines in the GT range will increase torque by 50%+ and immediately eliminate the need to drive weight down significantly deploying expensive composite technologies etc.
The smart money I see in the track day scene ware moving to bespoke builds based on Gen 2 Cayman platform. I think this is where it will increaisngly go - GT3 and modified Caymans until PAG come out with a GT3 Cayman type product (if indeed they ever do).
Did you end up ordering the new M3 out of interest? Im still considering it but waiting on spec for M2 and Cayman "GT4" so I can decide for ED Euro Spring 2016.
You just have to get over this thing with it being "new" thats all.
There will be no "new" production PAG product that will be lighter, more simple, lower cost than the last generation production IMO. We are heading into a future of hybrid drivetrains where weight loss will be countered by technology weight. The introduction of blown engines in the GT range will increase torque by 50%+ and immediately eliminate the need to drive weight down significantly deploying expensive composite technologies etc.
The smart money I see in the track day scene ware moving to bespoke builds based on Gen 2 Cayman platform. I think this is where it will increaisngly go - GT3 and modified Caymans until PAG come out with a GT3 Cayman type product (if indeed they ever do).
Did you end up ordering the new M3 out of interest? Im still considering it but waiting on spec for M2 and Cayman "GT4" so I can decide for ED Euro Spring 2016.
08-09-2014 | 09:00 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,140
Likes: 14
From: New Zealand
P.S. Not above on the Tuthill racing GT3 they have got to a 5 stud hub using the older style with the spigots mounted in the hub for strength and ease etc.
Also sequential which you must here to believe. Very good. They say much better than the manual for the application.
I think the donor car is 997.2 GT3RS
Heres the article form last week.
http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home...wrc-challenger
Also sequential which you must here to believe. Very good. They say much better than the manual for the application.
I think the donor car is 997.2 GT3RS
Heres the article form last week.
http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home...wrc-challenger
08-10-2014 | 11:38 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 29,459
Likes: 1,717
From: S. Florida
Pete. Its quite possible, just look at what Tuthills are doing below with their new GT3 WRC RSA project.
You just have to get over this thing with it being "new" thats all.
There will be no "new" production PAG product that will be lighter, more simple, lower cost than the last generation production IMO. We are heading into a future of hybrid drivetrains where weight loss will be countered by technology weight. The introduction of blown engines in the GT range will increase torque by 50%+ and immediately eliminate the need to drive weight down significantly deploying expensive composite technologies etc.
The smart money I see in the track day scene ware moving to bespoke builds based on Gen 2 Cayman platform. I think this is where it will increaisngly go - GT3 and modified Caymans until PAG come out with a GT3 Cayman type product (if indeed they ever do).
Did you end up ordering the new M3 out of interest? Im still considering it but waiting on spec for M2 and Cayman "GT4" so I can decide for ED Euro Spring 2016.
You just have to get over this thing with it being "new" thats all.
There will be no "new" production PAG product that will be lighter, more simple, lower cost than the last generation production IMO. We are heading into a future of hybrid drivetrains where weight loss will be countered by technology weight. The introduction of blown engines in the GT range will increase torque by 50%+ and immediately eliminate the need to drive weight down significantly deploying expensive composite technologies etc.
The smart money I see in the track day scene ware moving to bespoke builds based on Gen 2 Cayman platform. I think this is where it will increaisngly go - GT3 and modified Caymans until PAG come out with a GT3 Cayman type product (if indeed they ever do).
Did you end up ordering the new M3 out of interest? Im still considering it but waiting on spec for M2 and Cayman "GT4" so I can decide for ED Euro Spring 2016.
Both cars cost a fortune to make them what they are. Not interested in a racecar from Porsche, just a DE car. IMHO technically the GT3 could be lighter AND simpler AND cheaper. I agree they won't do it and it was a good point that we may need another financial crisis to make it happen, but that DID happen and they DID do it with the 1993 RSA.
I'm getting over the new stuff, but it seems that they do add weight and cost resulting in the car being faster. I'd give up some speed over great, involving driving feel and cost, I realized after buying the RSA. I'd like to buy that new, with warranty.
Maybe there will be a stripped Cayman. Plenty of car to have fun it, even the CaymanS the way it sits now, but it's cheated of some good stuff that the 911 gets, rear suspension, brakes and some HP, dry sump etc. I'd love the idea of a Cayman with a lower revving GT3 motor, brakes and rear suspension!
What has been holding me back is that a Cayman just doesn't feel like a 911 and I love that feel. The. Caymen is too dart, less stable under (trail) braking.
The M3 seems a car that's ok for the occasional track days why wifey daily drives it to Woolworth :-)
We have not ordered it because I stumbled on a 500E and again I'm very happily surprised I like to drive that old thing and we could not make it work to do M3 ED this summer, so we order it for spring 15 ED, but by then there may be other options like M2. Cayman GT4, RS, maybe even a new C63..
08-10-2014 | 10:57 PM
#22
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,140
Likes: 14
From: New Zealand
Macca, there is a stripper 997.2 GT3 for sale on Rennlist that is race legal, I could put a plate on it in FLorida but it's too far gone to be a street car. Besides I already have the RSA and the Rustang for that.
Both cars cost a fortune to make them what they are. Not interested in a racecar from Porsche, just a DE car. IMHO technically the GT3 could be lighter AND simpler AND cheaper. I agree they won't do it and it was a good point that we may need another financial crisis to make it happen, but that DID happen and they DID do it with the 1993 RSA.
I'm getting over the new stuff, but it seems that they do add weight and cost resulting in the car being faster. I'd give up some speed over great, involving driving feel and cost, I realized after buying the RSA. I'd like to buy that new, with warranty.
Maybe there will be a stripped Cayman. Plenty of car to have fun it, even the CaymanS the way it sits now, but it's cheated of some good stuff that the 911 gets, rear suspension, brakes and some HP, dry sump etc. I'd love the idea of a Cayman with a lower revving GT3 motor, brakes and rear suspension!
What has been holding me back is that a Cayman just doesn't feel like a 911 and I love that feel. The. Caymen is too dart, less stable under (trail) braking.
The M3 seems a car that's ok for the occasional track days why wifey daily drives it to Woolworth :-)
We have not ordered it because I stumbled on a 500E and again I'm very happily surprised I like to drive that old thing and we could not make it work to do M3 ED this summer, so we order it for spring 15 ED, but by then there may be other options like M2. Cayman GT4, RS, maybe even a new C63..
Both cars cost a fortune to make them what they are. Not interested in a racecar from Porsche, just a DE car. IMHO technically the GT3 could be lighter AND simpler AND cheaper. I agree they won't do it and it was a good point that we may need another financial crisis to make it happen, but that DID happen and they DID do it with the 1993 RSA.
I'm getting over the new stuff, but it seems that they do add weight and cost resulting in the car being faster. I'd give up some speed over great, involving driving feel and cost, I realized after buying the RSA. I'd like to buy that new, with warranty.
Maybe there will be a stripped Cayman. Plenty of car to have fun it, even the CaymanS the way it sits now, but it's cheated of some good stuff that the 911 gets, rear suspension, brakes and some HP, dry sump etc. I'd love the idea of a Cayman with a lower revving GT3 motor, brakes and rear suspension!
What has been holding me back is that a Cayman just doesn't feel like a 911 and I love that feel. The. Caymen is too dart, less stable under (trail) braking.
The M3 seems a car that's ok for the occasional track days why wifey daily drives it to Woolworth :-)
We have not ordered it because I stumbled on a 500E and again I'm very happily surprised I like to drive that old thing and we could not make it work to do M3 ED this summer, so we order it for spring 15 ED, but by then there may be other options like M2. Cayman GT4, RS, maybe even a new C63..
I havent ordered the M3 yet either. Im fence sitting till the M2 is officially announced and the "GT4" too and then will make a decision. It will afterall be my wifes transport and will likely never see the track (unless something else is broken!) although Ill take the keys for a few Sunday back road blasts when I can. The new M3 looks great on paper but Im still not 100% inspired. Great value tho. I confess I made a mistake and should have bought a 1M when the came out (still hilding value very well and alot of fun to drive). Bit slow of the mark there and hoping the M2 will be in the same spirit. The C63 could be of interest - Ive never owned a Merc yet. Actually even one of the last V8 M3 could work fine for us as its an occasional use car in reality. I dont see any decisions till later in 2015 when all becomes clear. Ive never driven a 500E but that sounds like a great car from what I hear. I have owned another car of similar heritage the Audi/Porsche RS2 estate but it had a big turbo, lots of lag and was numb at the helm. Reviews at the time raved about them. The e39 M5 we had till last year was a fantastic car probably in similar vein to the 500E and in hindsight I should have kept it but it was old and expensive to maintain/run. It was 6spd to boot and even the wife loved it!
08-10-2014 | 11:05 PM
#23
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From: S. Florida
:-)
You owe yourself C63 ride. It blew us away, much nicer engine and sound then M3 and most cars, we are both tall and the leg room is huge, much more than my CL, but it will be an old model next year so unless they offer some super cheap lease it's to much of a depreciation.
The 500E is pretty soft old style Benz. It's a 4 speed auto and i had to rig it to make it take off in first. Unless kick down is used it leaves in 2nd!
An acquired taste but I grew up with V8 S class so a lot like that.
Left lane Autobahn is where it's at home.
You owe yourself C63 ride. It blew us away, much nicer engine and sound then M3 and most cars, we are both tall and the leg room is huge, much more than my CL, but it will be an old model next year so unless they offer some super cheap lease it's to much of a depreciation.
The 500E is pretty soft old style Benz. It's a 4 speed auto and i had to rig it to make it take off in first. Unless kick down is used it leaves in 2nd!
An acquired taste but I grew up with V8 S class so a lot like that.
Left lane Autobahn is where it's at home.
08-11-2014 | 01:16 PM
#24
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 13,726
Likes: 1,952
From: Wishing I Was At The Track
Pete. I understand. Me too!
Have you considered the BMW M235i racing package out of Germany? They run a series theres starting this year. Its "only" 333 bhp but has big torque and is stripped down with more rigid chassis, better suspension and lower weight.
http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-m235ir.html
Its not a perfect solution and it snot a Porsche I know. However if they were to run this series in USA would be a great step up from track work - at least you are driving a one make series so about the driving not the car/mods etc.
I think in reality to achieve what you mention you need to look away from Porsche which is a luxury car manufacturer now with sports car heritage. In the UK Gienetta supply you a road legal trackj car for low cost which they provide some track and race time opportunities with. Down here and Im sure USA we have a GT86 series with highly modified GT86 which is realtively low cost and alot of fun. There is always the Ultima, Cateram, X bow, Atom markets which are very popular uin UK but which I dont hear much about form the USA - those are very capable track cars for the money.
There is actually alot of hardcore track day use equipment that meets you mandate if you are on with moving outside of Porsche and not fighting HP wars. The most tactile and best handling stiff is in the 300 bhp bracket and often capable of running things like GT3 very close in lap times on all bu the larger courses with longer straights..
Have you considered the BMW M235i racing package out of Germany? They run a series theres starting this year. Its "only" 333 bhp but has big torque and is stripped down with more rigid chassis, better suspension and lower weight.
http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-m235ir.html
Its not a perfect solution and it snot a Porsche I know. However if they were to run this series in USA would be a great step up from track work - at least you are driving a one make series so about the driving not the car/mods etc.
I think in reality to achieve what you mention you need to look away from Porsche which is a luxury car manufacturer now with sports car heritage. In the UK Gienetta supply you a road legal trackj car for low cost which they provide some track and race time opportunities with. Down here and Im sure USA we have a GT86 series with highly modified GT86 which is realtively low cost and alot of fun. There is always the Ultima, Cateram, X bow, Atom markets which are very popular uin UK but which I dont hear much about form the USA - those are very capable track cars for the money.
There is actually alot of hardcore track day use equipment that meets you mandate if you are on with moving outside of Porsche and not fighting HP wars. The most tactile and best handling stiff is in the 300 bhp bracket and often capable of running things like GT3 very close in lap times on all bu the larger courses with longer straights..
Spoke to head of program directly. Official line is: "We haven't made a decision on whether to bring the car to the U.S."
Of course that doesn't prevent one from going thru the hassle of importing one on their own, but the fun of the whole program is having a bunch of fellow spec guys to run with....
Yup
08-11-2014 | 06:20 PM
#25
Banned
Joined: Jul 2013
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It worked pretty well in 1993 and the resale on them is going nuts. It was a big success all the way around due to PCA demand....
http://www.rsamerica.net/market/vehicles/index.htm
The recipe:
-cheaper
-lighter
-simpler
-just as track worthy as the full pull model
-more fun, more honest purist car
-a bit slower OK.
Let's grab the RS..
CL, PDKrap, RWS optional, no alcantara, no leather just like entry level C2 crisis edition interior, black only, radio optional, AC optional, no torque vectoring, just a good old LSD. No Carbon hood, no carbon roof, no titanium exhaust, just simple strong 18" wheels. Say $130K CS package in a box for $10K, white only. Like first GT3.
Let's grab the GT3.
CL, PDKrap, RWS not available, no alcantara, no leather like entry level C2 crisis edition interior, black only, radio optional, AC optional, no torque vectoring, just a good old LSD. 18" wheels. Say $110K CS package in a box for $10K, silver, black, white, red or dark blue metallic. Like original RSA.
Great beginner track cars:
Let's grab a base C2S...
7 speed manual, strip everything, GT3 Suspension bits, good LSD, 18" wheels for $95K offer it in primer grey only. CS package in a box for $10K.
Lets do the same with the Cayman GT4 for $70K, instead of the BS parts bin special $90K GTS.
Stripped means everything is left off that the factory can leave off as long as it reduces weight and cost..
Fru fru crap options like nose lift, deviated stitching (use a damn Sharpie) whale ***** skin leather, 38 way seats, Ballermester stereo, xray head lamps, exterior paint inside, anything not black inside, chrono wart, etc. etc, not optional to make sure they keep their value.
Which one would you have to beat to death at the track?
http://www.rsamerica.net/market/vehicles/index.htm
The recipe:
-cheaper
-lighter
-simpler
-just as track worthy as the full pull model
-more fun, more honest purist car
-a bit slower OK.
Let's grab the RS..
CL, PDKrap, RWS optional, no alcantara, no leather just like entry level C2 crisis edition interior, black only, radio optional, AC optional, no torque vectoring, just a good old LSD. No Carbon hood, no carbon roof, no titanium exhaust, just simple strong 18" wheels. Say $130K CS package in a box for $10K, white only. Like first GT3.
Let's grab the GT3.
CL, PDKrap, RWS not available, no alcantara, no leather like entry level C2 crisis edition interior, black only, radio optional, AC optional, no torque vectoring, just a good old LSD. 18" wheels. Say $110K CS package in a box for $10K, silver, black, white, red or dark blue metallic. Like original RSA.
Great beginner track cars:
Let's grab a base C2S...
7 speed manual, strip everything, GT3 Suspension bits, good LSD, 18" wheels for $95K offer it in primer grey only. CS package in a box for $10K.
Lets do the same with the Cayman GT4 for $70K, instead of the BS parts bin special $90K GTS.
Stripped means everything is left off that the factory can leave off as long as it reduces weight and cost..
Fru fru crap options like nose lift, deviated stitching (use a damn Sharpie) whale ***** skin leather, 38 way seats, Ballermester stereo, xray head lamps, exterior paint inside, anything not black inside, chrono wart, etc. etc, not optional to make sure they keep their value.
Which one would you have to beat to death at the track?
08-11-2014 | 08:47 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 792
Likes: 4
From: Metairie, LA
Already tried. Not available in the U.S. yet....
Spoke to head of program directly. Official line is: "We haven't made a decision on whether to bring the car to the U.S."
Of course that doesn't prevent one from going thru the hassle of importing one on their own, but the fun of the whole program is having a bunch of fellow spec guys to run with....
Yup
Spoke to head of program directly. Official line is: "We haven't made a decision on whether to bring the car to the U.S."
Of course that doesn't prevent one from going thru the hassle of importing one on their own, but the fun of the whole program is having a bunch of fellow spec guys to run with....
Yup
08-11-2014 | 09:43 PM
#27
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: S. Florida
08-13-2014 | 03:57 PM
#28
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From: USVI
If you compare the parts list for the 996 GT3 with the 996GT3-RS (M002/M003/M004) as well as the 997GT3 with the 997GT3-RS (I004), it sure looks like the RSA tradition has continued to work pretty well for them...
08-13-2014 | 04:26 PM
#29
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Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Denver
Don't forget that one of the most siginficant changes for the RSA was a return to manual steeering (while all the other 964's, including Euro RS) kept power steering. That would certainly solve the numb steering in the 991, but we might need to work out a bit to increase upper body strength...
08-14-2014 | 04:03 PM
#30
Race Car
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 583
From: Le Mans, France
Don't forget that one of the most siginficant changes for the RSA was a return to manual steeering (while all the other 964's, including Euro RS) kept power steering. That would certainly solve the numb steering in the 991, but we might need to work out a bit to increase upper body strength...