Porsche 911 GT America – First New Car Built for 2014 United Sports Car Racing Series
08-13-2013, 02:36 PM
#31
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08-13-2013, 02:46 PM
#32
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All the teams that run Porsches in racing want a DFI engine for more power and better fuel efficiency. The Mezger engine as is can not be fitted with DFI. To do so would require a complete redesign. Instead of just redesigning the Mezger Porsche decided to engineer an entirely new racing engine build off the principles of the 9A1 motor.
People will have their doubts but this is exactly how the Mezger engine was developed originally. The Mezger first showed up in the first 911 then was developed further on the race track.
08-13-2013, 02:49 PM
#33
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Serious question- I wonder exactly how much that's worth?
Every time the Mezger evolved most of the important bits were re-invented. Crank, cylinders, oil pump, etc all changed. And many of the most important bits (pistons, rods, cams, variocam) were never shared with the race cars. The main constant in the Mezger was the engine case, but that was the area the motor was arguably weakest, given that the bolted together design lacked the rigidity of a single-piece block and pistons.
A few years ago a guy I know re-engineered a Cayenne motor and won the Daytona 24 with it. Obviously the Cayenne motor could never have lasted the distance and can't be considered a race motor in any way. However he used little of the Cayenne motor itself other than the block. The pistons, rods, cams, intake, etc were all new and top quality race components. Using this strategy he took a new, untested motor that was designed for something else entirely and won perhaps the second hardest race in the world with it.
My point is that I don't think I put that much stock in the fact that the mezger is race proven, as nice as that is. Instead, I have faith in the guys that built it and the standard they built it to. The guy I know built the Mezger that won Daytona the year before he built the Cayenne motor. Clearly what he learned in the process allowed him to design a new motor that worked the first time. I guess my attitude is the same with the new GT3 motor. I had faith that the guys who built the 997.1 GT3 could build the RS 4.0 motor, despite the fact that many of the important parts were different. And I have faith that the same guys can take what they have learned and apply it to a new motor and be successful.
Two potential concerns do remain- lack of testing/ volume, and budget limitations. I generally have faith that the organization hasn't skimped in those areas too, but we'll see.
Every time the Mezger evolved most of the important bits were re-invented. Crank, cylinders, oil pump, etc all changed. And many of the most important bits (pistons, rods, cams, variocam) were never shared with the race cars. The main constant in the Mezger was the engine case, but that was the area the motor was arguably weakest, given that the bolted together design lacked the rigidity of a single-piece block and pistons.
A few years ago a guy I know re-engineered a Cayenne motor and won the Daytona 24 with it. Obviously the Cayenne motor could never have lasted the distance and can't be considered a race motor in any way. However he used little of the Cayenne motor itself other than the block. The pistons, rods, cams, intake, etc were all new and top quality race components. Using this strategy he took a new, untested motor that was designed for something else entirely and won perhaps the second hardest race in the world with it.
My point is that I don't think I put that much stock in the fact that the mezger is race proven, as nice as that is. Instead, I have faith in the guys that built it and the standard they built it to. The guy I know built the Mezger that won Daytona the year before he built the Cayenne motor. Clearly what he learned in the process allowed him to design a new motor that worked the first time. I guess my attitude is the same with the new GT3 motor. I had faith that the guys who built the 997.1 GT3 could build the RS 4.0 motor, despite the fact that many of the important parts were different. And I have faith that the same guys can take what they have learned and apply it to a new motor and be successful.
Two potential concerns do remain- lack of testing/ volume, and budget limitations. I generally have faith that the organization hasn't skimped in those areas too, but we'll see.
The current water cooled Mezger is a bit of a Frankenstein motor. It has taken a form that was never intended in its original design. I love the Mezger design but it has reached its full potential. It is probably best to start fresh.
08-13-2013, 03:30 PM
#34
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Serious question- I wonder exactly how much that's worth?
Every time the Mezger evolved most of the important bits were re-invented. Crank, cylinders, oil pump, etc all changed. And many of the most important bits (pistons, rods, cams, variocam) were never shared with the race cars. The main constant in the Mezger was the engine case, but that was the area the motor was arguably weakest, given that the bolted together design lacked the rigidity of a single-piece block and pistons.
A few years ago a guy I know re-engineered a Cayenne motor and won the Daytona 24 with it. Obviously the Cayenne motor could never have lasted the distance and can't be considered a race motor in any way. However he used little of the Cayenne motor itself other than the block. The pistons, rods, cams, intake, etc were all new and top quality race components. Using this strategy he took a new, untested motor that was designed for something else entirely and won perhaps the second hardest race in the world with it.
My point is that I don't think I put that much stock in the fact that the mezger is race proven, as nice as that is. Instead, I have faith in the guys that built it and the standard they built it to. The guy I know built the Mezger that won Daytona the year before he built the Cayenne motor. Clearly what he learned in the process allowed him to design a new motor that worked the first time. I guess my attitude is the same with the new GT3 motor. I had faith that the guys who built the 997.1 GT3 could build the RS 4.0 motor, despite the fact that many of the important parts were different. And I have faith that the same guys can take what they have learned and apply it to a new motor and be successful.
Two potential concerns do remain- lack of testing/ volume, and budget limitations. I generally have faith that the organization hasn't skimped in those areas too, but we'll see.
Every time the Mezger evolved most of the important bits were re-invented. Crank, cylinders, oil pump, etc all changed. And many of the most important bits (pistons, rods, cams, variocam) were never shared with the race cars. The main constant in the Mezger was the engine case, but that was the area the motor was arguably weakest, given that the bolted together design lacked the rigidity of a single-piece block and pistons.
A few years ago a guy I know re-engineered a Cayenne motor and won the Daytona 24 with it. Obviously the Cayenne motor could never have lasted the distance and can't be considered a race motor in any way. However he used little of the Cayenne motor itself other than the block. The pistons, rods, cams, intake, etc were all new and top quality race components. Using this strategy he took a new, untested motor that was designed for something else entirely and won perhaps the second hardest race in the world with it.
My point is that I don't think I put that much stock in the fact that the mezger is race proven, as nice as that is. Instead, I have faith in the guys that built it and the standard they built it to. The guy I know built the Mezger that won Daytona the year before he built the Cayenne motor. Clearly what he learned in the process allowed him to design a new motor that worked the first time. I guess my attitude is the same with the new GT3 motor. I had faith that the guys who built the 997.1 GT3 could build the RS 4.0 motor, despite the fact that many of the important parts were different. And I have faith that the same guys can take what they have learned and apply it to a new motor and be successful.
Two potential concerns do remain- lack of testing/ volume, and budget limitations. I generally have faith that the organization hasn't skimped in those areas too, but we'll see.
Though until the new powerplant is battle tested, people will go on and on about the untimely death of Mezger. Then there's the elitist factor: My 996/7 GT3/RS has a special motor. It's much tougher to **** to a overhauled Carrera motor (despite the fact it shares little with the lowly Carrera motor).
08-13-2013, 04:04 PM
#35
It isn't really big news because there have reports and rumors about it for the past two years.
All the teams that run Porsches in racing want a DFI engine for more power and better fuel efficiency. The Mezger engine as is can not be fitted with DFI. To do so would require a complete redesign. Instead of just redesigning the Mezger Porsche decided to engineer an entirely new racing engine build off the principles of the 9A1 motor.
People will have their doubts but this is exactly how the Mezger engine was developed originally. The Mezger first showed up in the first 911 then was developed further on the race track.
All the teams that run Porsches in racing want a DFI engine for more power and better fuel efficiency. The Mezger engine as is can not be fitted with DFI. To do so would require a complete redesign. Instead of just redesigning the Mezger Porsche decided to engineer an entirely new racing engine build off the principles of the 9A1 motor.
People will have their doubts but this is exactly how the Mezger engine was developed originally. The Mezger first showed up in the first 911 then was developed further on the race track.
Further, maybe someone can provide more detail on the homologation requirements for me. Could Porsche have introduced the new engine in a limited volume race car before it has appeared in a production vehicle?
08-13-2013, 04:12 PM
#36
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Please don't misunderstand my post - I agree that there needs to be a new motor around the corner. I'm just stating that if it had been introduced in the GT America, I would expect the press release to trumpet that fact.
Further, maybe someone can provide more detail on the homologation requirements for me. Could Porsche have introduced the new engine in a limited volume race car before it has appeared in a production vehicle?
Further, maybe someone can provide more detail on the homologation requirements for me. Could Porsche have introduced the new engine in a limited volume race car before it has appeared in a production vehicle?
I believe it is a bit too early for the big reveal of the Mezger retirement.
It is possible since the USCR series announced their 2014 specs so late that Mezger could still be used there but I doubt it. The new 9A1 race motor is supposed to be very similar to the motors in the new GT3 and Turbos so that would solve any homologation problems. Most cars in the current Grand-am series run specially built motors anyway.
EDIT: I just read through the press release again and saw this:
"4.0-liter aluminum six-cylinder rear-mounted boxer engine, 470 hp; "
The key word is "aluminum", the Mezger motor is not made from aluminum. This car will have the new DFI 9A1 derived racing motor in it. A similar motor to the new GT3 motor.
Last edited by Carlo_Carrera; 08-13-2013 at 05:56 PM.
08-13-2013, 06:09 PM
#37
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What is ultimately to be gained from this new motor anyways? Its still a high revving flat 6. The Mezger has had zero issues making the restricted power that the classes with undoubtedly still limit it to. Weight is regulated too, so it's not like the car will get to run lighter. Revs will also be limited.
For a street engine, you can see why the 9A1 is beneficial, for race motors, the 911 needs much more torque. In the midst of the sandbag contest, the Porsche were not being beaten on straight line performance, however when pulling from around traffic and out of slow turns, it will help to have a lot more torque.
Unless the new racing motor can produce a whole lot more of that, I don't see it benefiting the cars much anyways.
So is there any real racing advantage or is it all about updating the car? I am not a Mezger fanboy BTW, completely support a new motor, but how will it actually improve performance.
For a street engine, you can see why the 9A1 is beneficial, for race motors, the 911 needs much more torque. In the midst of the sandbag contest, the Porsche were not being beaten on straight line performance, however when pulling from around traffic and out of slow turns, it will help to have a lot more torque.
Unless the new racing motor can produce a whole lot more of that, I don't see it benefiting the cars much anyways.
So is there any real racing advantage or is it all about updating the car? I am not a Mezger fanboy BTW, completely support a new motor, but how will it actually improve performance.
08-13-2013, 06:20 PM
#38
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What is ultimately to be gained from this new motor anyways? Its still a high revving flat 6. The Mezger has had zero issues making the restricted power that the classes with undoubtedly still limit it to. Weight is regulated too, so it's not like the car will get to run lighter. Revs will also be limited.
For a street engine, you can see why the 9A1 is beneficial, for race motors, the 911 needs much more torque. In the midst of the sandbag contest, the Porsche were not being beaten on straight line performance, however when pulling from around traffic and out of slow turns, it will help to have a lot more torque.
Unless the new racing motor can produce a whole lot more of that, I don't see it benefiting the cars much anyways.
So is there any real racing advantage or is it all about updating the car? I am not a Mezger fanboy BTW, completely support a new motor, but how will it actually improve performance.
For a street engine, you can see why the 9A1 is beneficial, for race motors, the 911 needs much more torque. In the midst of the sandbag contest, the Porsche were not being beaten on straight line performance, however when pulling from around traffic and out of slow turns, it will help to have a lot more torque.
Unless the new racing motor can produce a whole lot more of that, I don't see it benefiting the cars much anyways.
So is there any real racing advantage or is it all about updating the car? I am not a Mezger fanboy BTW, completely support a new motor, but how will it actually improve performance.
08-13-2013, 06:44 PM
#41
The new motor is lighter so that lets the mandatory ballast weigh be better distributed in more idea locations. It also uses direct fuel injection which is much more tunable for better performance at different types of circuits. DFI also gives boosts to HP, Torque and fuel efficiency. Better power and less pit stops.
It is true that in the end if you make the car faster they'll turn around and slow it down, but it does make for a fundamentally quicker race car.
08-13-2013, 07:15 PM
#42
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08-13-2013, 07:30 PM
#43
08-13-2013, 08:02 PM
#44
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"Aluminium six-cylinder rear-mounted boxer engine"
(http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsand...ogyandconcept/)
08-13-2013, 09:34 PM
#45
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It depends on what series they are racing in and how well they sandbag in testing. But even if they can get only one more lap in fuel efficiency it would help.