View Poll Results: 5-Lug or Center-lock
5-Lug Wheels - no cost option
141
79.21%
Center-lock Wheels - no cost option
37
20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll
5-Lug vs Center-lock Poll
06-06-2013 | 11:00 AM
#17
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 2
From: With A Manual Transmission
I see your point however I would also take into consideration that there are shifts in customer base and the companies often veer away from tradition and take risks to steal clients away from other brands.
Porsche are clearly steering away from the customer that will use the car as a hardcore track day car. They wouldn't possibly not include 5 lugs as an option, nor would the car come standard with 20's and not have 19's as an option or even be able to fit 18"s. Porsche knows that the 18" wheel is the standard.
This is the case where the marketing, when not targeted at return customers, leaves some of the enthusiasts out in the cold when they are after Ferrari and Audi and Lambo clients. If you look at the car from the interior, to the lack of transmission choice, to the addition of drivers aids, it's fairly clear that Porsche either think they have their return customers in the bag or intend to replace the ones that defect with a whole new demographic. That's the only way you can explain such a radical shift and change in the whole approach to the car. It's very dramatic.
This is whats so annoying. The blatant disregard that Porsche has for the connection that they themselves established in getting people hooked on the concept of the GT3. And now to completely flip the script.
Porsche are clearly steering away from the customer that will use the car as a hardcore track day car. They wouldn't possibly not include 5 lugs as an option, nor would the car come standard with 20's and not have 19's as an option or even be able to fit 18"s. Porsche knows that the 18" wheel is the standard.
This is the case where the marketing, when not targeted at return customers, leaves some of the enthusiasts out in the cold when they are after Ferrari and Audi and Lambo clients. If you look at the car from the interior, to the lack of transmission choice, to the addition of drivers aids, it's fairly clear that Porsche either think they have their return customers in the bag or intend to replace the ones that defect with a whole new demographic. That's the only way you can explain such a radical shift and change in the whole approach to the car. It's very dramatic.
This is whats so annoying. The blatant disregard that Porsche has for the connection that they themselves established in getting people hooked on the concept of the GT3. And now to completely flip the script.
Well, "new" Porsche should be more responsive to customers than old traditional Porsche. In olden days engineers did what they felt passionate about, regardless of if it made sense to customers. Sometimes it works and results in cars with a lot of heart and soul, but it's really hit and miss, with mostly miss.
Marketing-driven companies of modern days use combination of people and technologies to suck in everything they can from the market to make something that the market will swallow and ask for more. So as a result, there are very few misses, but many products (but not all) that are rather bland and heartless - I'm sure you all noticed this tendency in many areas besides cars. And when marketers measure the sentiment, they (we, actually) weigh much higher the opinions of those who form opinions of others - in this case those would be bloggers, jornos, forum enthusiasts, driving instructors etc. If porsche's marketers are worth their pay, they know how to measure this stuff and to assess the risk of medium and long term brand erosion.
In much shorter version - if Porsche truly turned into a marketing compan as some here claim, bitching on rennlist and everywhere else we can may actually help.
Sorry for a long post, but it's just what I know quite well, although not from automotive industry. Marketing is not all bad - if they do their job right, they actually make products that create most value for customers at least cost for the vendor. Not offering 5-lugs or bucket seats (or probably even lack of warranty for track use) is destruction of customer value without much gain for Porsche, so smart marketers should stop that eventually, if they get a way.
Marketing-driven companies of modern days use combination of people and technologies to suck in everything they can from the market to make something that the market will swallow and ask for more. So as a result, there are very few misses, but many products (but not all) that are rather bland and heartless - I'm sure you all noticed this tendency in many areas besides cars. And when marketers measure the sentiment, they (we, actually) weigh much higher the opinions of those who form opinions of others - in this case those would be bloggers, jornos, forum enthusiasts, driving instructors etc. If porsche's marketers are worth their pay, they know how to measure this stuff and to assess the risk of medium and long term brand erosion.
In much shorter version - if Porsche truly turned into a marketing compan as some here claim, bitching on rennlist and everywhere else we can may actually help.
Sorry for a long post, but it's just what I know quite well, although not from automotive industry. Marketing is not all bad - if they do their job right, they actually make products that create most value for customers at least cost for the vendor. Not offering 5-lugs or bucket seats (or probably even lack of warranty for track use) is destruction of customer value without much gain for Porsche, so smart marketers should stop that eventually, if they get a way.
06-06-2013 | 11:38 AM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,995
Likes: 393
From: Ny
06-06-2013 | 11:42 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,571
Likes: 24
From: Regretfully not at a track... :(
Many, many pages of benefits in the 997 gt forum, hehe....
06-06-2013 | 11:57 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,995
Likes: 393
From: Ny
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...onversion.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ew-recall.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ck-wheels.html
06-06-2013 | 12:06 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 8,022
Likes: 56
From: California
I prefer the functionality of 5 lug. Installing wheels requires less thinking and this system is more forgiving to installation error.
I prefer the looks of centerlock. They just look badass, especially with the wheel design on the 991 GT3.
I prefer the looks of centerlock. They just look badass, especially with the wheel design on the 991 GT3.
06-06-2013 | 12:13 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,275
Likes: 8
From: Alberta, California
It's ALWAYS about the money. Somehow the CLs make more money for Porsche and the difficulties us track rats are having aren't enough to offset their gain. I doubt RL can change this but hopefully enough fuss will encourage them to make 5 lug a no cost or even an extra cost option.
06-06-2013 | 12:17 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,167
Likes: 263
From: san francisco
smart ppl take 5 lugs
the other type take CL.
until you have air jack and impact tool on CL, i am pretty sure i 'll be faster with 5 lugs using impact gun.
for me it's not about safety, i change hub on 5 lugs very often too. hell i still have multiple sets of uprights for my 996gt3 collecting dust in garage. it's about convenience in changing tires.
now if you talking about cup car CL where i can over torque with impact gun and be done with it. yes, sure, CL is it. until then, i want 5 lugs.
the other type take CL.
until you have air jack and impact tool on CL, i am pretty sure i 'll be faster with 5 lugs using impact gun.
for me it's not about safety, i change hub on 5 lugs very often too. hell i still have multiple sets of uprights for my 996gt3 collecting dust in garage. it's about convenience in changing tires.
now if you talking about cup car CL where i can over torque with impact gun and be done with it. yes, sure, CL is it. until then, i want 5 lugs.
06-06-2013 | 01:57 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,262
Likes: 5
From: Southern California
Possibly killed b/c of complaints, but definitely spec'd on perceptions, if not strictly 'market analysis' (I'm unconvinced that real analysis of any kind occurs much. anymore).
06-06-2013 | 02:55 PM
#26
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,129
Likes: 280
From: North Bay Area, CA
I voted for 5 lugs because they're what I'm familiar with and they require no special attention, tools, or expertise. That said, from what I've read, Porsche have improved the CL design to near Cup car levels and concerns over design shortfall should be a thing of the past.
Also from what I've read, although the failures have been well documented, they involve a very small percentage of CL wheels and these seem to be related to improper maintenance and installation proceedures rather than structural issues. I remember one thread a few months back where someone posted pics of unusual wear and described torquing problems and everyone freaked out for a while about how there was another CL disaster in the making until an experienced poster noted that the wheels had actually been installed incorrectly. Most users have said that they have experienced zero problems.
Now before y'all jump down my throat, I get that the more complicated procedures around CL's aren't well suited to a DE track environment and 5 lugs would be much more forgiving in that regard. AP himself said that Porsche underestimated the way people used the wheels and presumably that's one reason why they have made changes in the design. I also get that people are righteously upset that maintenance/replacement protocols were not spelled out for the previous gen CL's. OTOH, just to play the devils advocate, maybe it was unrealistic to buy a "race car", use it like a "race car" and then expect to not have to maintain it like a "race car".
The issue of choice is a valid one. I don't know the specific design considerations that are involved but on the surface it sure seems reasonable that 5 lug wheels could be an option for those who want them.
As to your specific question, Chris, for someone who will not be tracking their car extensively or at all, the new CL's will likely never cause them a problem. They do look good, are a bit lighter, and I can see where 10% of the voters might choose them for those reasons alone without fear of having to live "on the edge". Doesn't really rise to the level of a wtf, IMHO.
And now, to the bunker.........
Also from what I've read, although the failures have been well documented, they involve a very small percentage of CL wheels and these seem to be related to improper maintenance and installation proceedures rather than structural issues. I remember one thread a few months back where someone posted pics of unusual wear and described torquing problems and everyone freaked out for a while about how there was another CL disaster in the making until an experienced poster noted that the wheels had actually been installed incorrectly. Most users have said that they have experienced zero problems.
Now before y'all jump down my throat, I get that the more complicated procedures around CL's aren't well suited to a DE track environment and 5 lugs would be much more forgiving in that regard. AP himself said that Porsche underestimated the way people used the wheels and presumably that's one reason why they have made changes in the design. I also get that people are righteously upset that maintenance/replacement protocols were not spelled out for the previous gen CL's. OTOH, just to play the devils advocate, maybe it was unrealistic to buy a "race car", use it like a "race car" and then expect to not have to maintain it like a "race car".
The issue of choice is a valid one. I don't know the specific design considerations that are involved but on the surface it sure seems reasonable that 5 lug wheels could be an option for those who want them.
As to your specific question, Chris, for someone who will not be tracking their car extensively or at all, the new CL's will likely never cause them a problem. They do look good, are a bit lighter, and I can see where 10% of the voters might choose them for those reasons alone without fear of having to live "on the edge". Doesn't really rise to the level of a wtf, IMHO.
And now, to the bunker.........
06-06-2013 | 03:29 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,661
Likes: 966
I voted for 5 lugs because they're what I'm familiar with and they require no special attention, tools, or expertise. That said, from what I've read, Porsche have improved the CL design to near Cup car levels and concerns over design shortfall should be a thing of the past.
Also from what I've read, although the failures have been well documented, they involve a very small percentage of CL wheels and these seem to be related to improper maintenance and installation proceedures rather than structural issues. I remember one thread a few months back where someone posted pics of unusual wear and described torquing problems and everyone freaked out for a while about how there was another CL disaster in the making until an experienced poster noted that the wheels had actually been installed incorrectly. Most users have said that they have experienced zero problems.
Now before y'all jump down my throat, I get that the more complicated procedures around CL's aren't well suited to a DE track environment and 5 lugs would be much more forgiving in that regard. AP himself said that Porsche underestimated the way people used the wheels and presumably that's one reason why they have made changes in the design. I also get that people are righteously upset that maintenance/replacement protocols were not spelled out for the previous gen CL's. OTOH, just to play the devils advocate, maybe it was unrealistic to buy a "race car", use it like a "race car" and then expect to not have to maintain it like a "race car".
The issue of choice is a valid one. I don't know the specific design considerations that are involved but on the surface it sure seems reasonable that 5 lug wheels could be an option for those who want them.
As to your specific question, Chris, for someone who will not be tracking their car extensively or at all, the new CL's will likely never cause them a problem. They do look good, are a bit lighter, and I can see where 10% of the voters might choose them for those reasons alone without fear of having to live "on the edge". Doesn't really rise to the level of a wtf, IMHO.
And now, to the bunker.........
Also from what I've read, although the failures have been well documented, they involve a very small percentage of CL wheels and these seem to be related to improper maintenance and installation proceedures rather than structural issues. I remember one thread a few months back where someone posted pics of unusual wear and described torquing problems and everyone freaked out for a while about how there was another CL disaster in the making until an experienced poster noted that the wheels had actually been installed incorrectly. Most users have said that they have experienced zero problems.
Now before y'all jump down my throat, I get that the more complicated procedures around CL's aren't well suited to a DE track environment and 5 lugs would be much more forgiving in that regard. AP himself said that Porsche underestimated the way people used the wheels and presumably that's one reason why they have made changes in the design. I also get that people are righteously upset that maintenance/replacement protocols were not spelled out for the previous gen CL's. OTOH, just to play the devils advocate, maybe it was unrealistic to buy a "race car", use it like a "race car" and then expect to not have to maintain it like a "race car".
The issue of choice is a valid one. I don't know the specific design considerations that are involved but on the surface it sure seems reasonable that 5 lug wheels could be an option for those who want them.
As to your specific question, Chris, for someone who will not be tracking their car extensively or at all, the new CL's will likely never cause them a problem. They do look good, are a bit lighter, and I can see where 10% of the voters might choose them for those reasons alone without fear of having to live "on the edge". Doesn't really rise to the level of a wtf, IMHO.
And now, to the bunker.........
06-06-2013 | 04:37 PM
#30
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,129
Likes: 280
From: North Bay Area, CA