.1RS vs. .2RS at Laguna Seca
08-29-2019, 02:57 PM
#16
Both N1 Dunlops I assume.
I'm always interested in back-calculating exactly how much of the speed improvement is down to tires. I usually figure it's around half for Porsche, the other half coming from aero/ power/ suspension/ etc...
I'm always interested in back-calculating exactly how much of the speed improvement is down to tires. I usually figure it's around half for Porsche, the other half coming from aero/ power/ suspension/ etc...
08-29-2019, 08:33 PM
#17
Racer
Nice and informative post! Think anyone doing any sort of rigorous analysis of the n-ring times could figure out that the tire technology is most responsible for these purported "leaps" in performance (agree with you Joe, it's a big gimmick). I contacted Manthey Racing and they basically told me the same thing on the n-ring:..ie tires responsible for about ~15+ secs and coilover vs stock suspension responsible for another ~5 when comparing the same car. Figure the .2 has a tad more power and stiffer suspension and gives probably another ~3-5 secs on a 13 mile track. They're way closer in performance than most people think.
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PDKMEH (08-31-2019)
08-30-2019, 12:02 AM
#18
Banned
Is Laguna the best track for the comparison? I’d venture a track like that of Sonoma or Road America would yield a greater disparity. Undulation, follow through, breaking zones....Don’t get me wrong, Laguna is a cool track, but another one for control I’d say...
08-30-2019, 12:06 AM
#19
Drifting
The best track to see a greater disparity is the longest track. And the longest track is the Nurburgring. But for the "real world," the best track for a comparison is... well... any track. Any track any owner of either car would be expected to drive.
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PDKMEH (08-31-2019)
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PDKMEH (08-31-2019)
08-30-2019, 06:24 AM
#22
Drifting
Really nice data point, and all the more because it isn't with a pro driver—and alignment and other variables are addressed. Same day, same driver, and a driver that is at the higher end of the customer segment. So, more applicable. Thanks for doing this!
One thing I will note: I tend to agree on the 2R discussion, and this video—while one data point—underlines an odd takeaway I've had: Good as the 991.2 GT3 RS is—and that's very good, especially when well aligned—the stiffer chassis has traded away some of the shocking duality of the 991.1 GT3 RS, which is so comfortable on the street that you have to check your mirrors to see the wing that confirms you are in an RS while being a beast on track. One would be a fool to turn down one over the other as a track-day machine, but the 991.1 GT3 RS remains seriously compelling because most of us have to travel real distances to get to a track day, and a car that's more comfortable for that trip and nearly as quick on track is a very nice proposition indeed…
One thing I will note: I tend to agree on the 2R discussion, and this video—while one data point—underlines an odd takeaway I've had: Good as the 991.2 GT3 RS is—and that's very good, especially when well aligned—the stiffer chassis has traded away some of the shocking duality of the 991.1 GT3 RS, which is so comfortable on the street that you have to check your mirrors to see the wing that confirms you are in an RS while being a beast on track. One would be a fool to turn down one over the other as a track-day machine, but the 991.1 GT3 RS remains seriously compelling because most of us have to travel real distances to get to a track day, and a car that's more comfortable for that trip and nearly as quick on track is a very nice proposition indeed…
08-30-2019, 06:40 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Good video. I agree with narrator (Jeff) that the tire thing is kind of BS. But along the same lines the fixation on Ring times is silly. It doesn't mean anything - zip, zero, nada - for street driving. And frankly it doesn't mean much for track driving either.
For DE (the only type of track driving anyone with an RS is really doing) none of this matters. Comes down to whether you enjoy owning the car, enjoy your seat time and whether you can get it set up the way you want. People would be a lot better served paying for pro-coaching and getting off of the Porsche upgrade wheel if they want to go faster at the track. If you want bragging rights on the street then by all means.
For DE (the only type of track driving anyone with an RS is really doing) none of this matters. Comes down to whether you enjoy owning the car, enjoy your seat time and whether you can get it set up the way you want. People would be a lot better served paying for pro-coaching and getting off of the Porsche upgrade wheel if they want to go faster at the track. If you want bragging rights on the street then by all means.
saying this for years.
Every post above is spot on too.
08-30-2019, 02:18 PM
#24
Nope it's not - do 100 laps then get back to me. The difference is significant / start running in competition on the clock for real. That's how you find out.
Also re ring times - you have factory drivers absolutely driving the pants off these cars and think it's meaningless - of course it's meaningful as a demonstration of what's possible.
It would be good If posted data reflects maximum utilisation which basically means times and friction circles wrt tire type.
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
Also re ring times - you have factory drivers absolutely driving the pants off these cars and think it's meaningless - of course it's meaningful as a demonstration of what's possible.
It would be good If posted data reflects maximum utilisation which basically means times and friction circles wrt tire type.
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
Last edited by groundhog; 08-30-2019 at 03:09 PM.
08-30-2019, 04:14 PM
#25
Nope it's not - do 100 laps then get back to me. The difference is significant / start running in competition on the clock for real. That's how you find out.
.....
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
.....
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
I expect the gap to grow slightly with more data points, but if you're expecting to see a 2-3 second per minute difference with the same driver on the same tires you'll be extremely disappointed.
As a side note the only difference between the above and a time-trial competition event would be day, level of commitment and the way some insurance companies would treat a crash.
08-30-2019, 04:26 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Bravo, good tread!
Thanks for sharing this Joe & Serge, it is a surprise to me. I would have expected some significant gains for the .2 vs .1...
Thanks for sharing this Joe & Serge, it is a surprise to me. I would have expected some significant gains for the .2 vs .1...
08-30-2019, 04:35 PM
#27
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One thing I will note: I tend to agree on the 2R discussion, and this video—while one data point—underlines an odd takeaway I've had: Good as the 991.2 GT3 RS is—and that's very good, especially when well aligned—the stiffer chassis has traded away some of the shocking duality of the 991.1 GT3 RS, which is so comfortable on the street that you have to check your mirrors to see the wing that confirms you are in an RS while being a beast on track. One would be a fool to turn down one over the other as a track-day machine, but the 991.1 GT3 RS remains seriously compelling because most of us have to travel real distances to get to a track day, and a car that's more comfortable for that trip and nearly as quick on track is a very nice proposition indeed…
08-30-2019, 04:39 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Nope it's not - do 100 laps then get back to me. The difference is significant / start running in competition on the clock for real. That's how you find out.
Also re ring times - you have factory drivers absolutely driving the pants off these cars and think it's meaningless - of course it's meaningful as a demonstration of what's possible.
It would be good If posted data reflects maximum utilisation which basically means times and friction circles wrt tire type.
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
Also re ring times - you have factory drivers absolutely driving the pants off these cars and think it's meaningless - of course it's meaningful as a demonstration of what's possible.
It would be good If posted data reflects maximum utilisation which basically means times and friction circles wrt tire type.
For context I have personally put 2 to 3 seconds a minute on .1 GT3 RS and .2 GT3 (Dorian timed) the difference is significant and repeatable.
My point and I think his point is driver improvement is the biggest difference in these two cars.
I do believe that there is at least a 1 second delta at most tracks all things equal and repeated for provable results.
But the .2 does have those bitch’n NACA ducts and the raised front fender vents. 😎
08-30-2019, 05:56 PM
#30
Good video. I agree with narrator (Jeff) that the tire thing is kind of BS. But along the same lines the fixation on Ring times is silly. It doesn't mean anything - zip, zero, nada - for street driving. And frankly it doesn't mean much for track driving either.
For DE (the only type of track driving anyone with an RS is really doing) none of this matters. Comes down to whether you enjoy owning the car, enjoy your seat time and whether you can get it set up the way you want. People would be a lot better served paying for pro-coaching and getting off of the Porsche upgrade wheel if they want to go faster at the track. If you want bragging rights on the street then by all means.
For DE (the only type of track driving anyone with an RS is really doing) none of this matters. Comes down to whether you enjoy owning the car, enjoy your seat time and whether you can get it set up the way you want. People would be a lot better served paying for pro-coaching and getting off of the Porsche upgrade wheel if they want to go faster at the track. If you want bragging rights on the street then by all means.