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That's what happens when Porsche starts cranking out vehicles. QC suffers. It is well-documented how many 991.2 GT3s Porsche produced. Moe mentioned to me that he has noticed a drop-off in QC in many areas, not just paint QC, between the 991.1 and 991.2. I can't imagine that will get any better with the 992. Porsche is becoming more and more of a mass-market car builder, similar to BMW and Mercedes. Volume is increasing, prices go up substantially from 911 generation to generation and craftsmanship quality is (arguably) going down.
That's what happens when Porsche starts cranking out vehicles. QC suffers. It is well-documented how many 991.2 GT3s Porsche produced. Moe mentioned to me that he has noticed a drop-off in QC in many areas, not just paint QC, between the 991.1 and 991.2. I can't imagine that will get any better with the 992. Porsche is becoming more and more of a mass-market car builder, similar to BMW and Mercedes. Volume is increasing, prices go up substantially from 911 generation to generation and craftsmanship quality is (arguably) going down.
It is more a function of how many PTS cars they allow, and has little to do with the overall number of vehicles produced.
In the general assembly process, robots/automation paint cars in a few minutes and is not a limiting step in assembly process. They could produce 10X the amount of cars with no change in result.
PTS is a different process than the robots and is probably being handled in a sloppy way. Bear in mind that low # cars like Mclaren/Lambo and Ferrari, which can be assembled at leisure, all have lots of lousy paint as well, and my VW is like a mirror.
I would also dispute the idea that quality is waning. My 997 was far and away a sloppily built car. So far my 991 has been flawless, including the paint.
Hey doc! Interesting information. Whatever the case may be, it is disappointing that I have to have the $13,000 paint work revised upon delivery. As for the dip in QC, that is coming not from me but from someone who takes Porsches apart for a living. He did not mention the 997 (good or bad) but rather was of the opinion that the 991.2 generation cars had more deviations (we are talking mm here) than he found in the 991.1 cars.
My question here is: would the dealership even help because you decided not to do their prep? Wouldn’t any exterior known issues be identified and addressed during prep by going through some procedure instructed by PCNA?
It is more a function of how many PTS cars they allow, and has little to do with the overall number of vehicles produced.
In the general assembly process, robots/automation paint cars in a few minutes and is not a limiting step in assembly process. They could produce 10X the amount of cars with no change in result.
PTS is a different process than the robots and is probably being handled in a sloppy way. Bear in mind that low # cars like Mclaren/Lambo and Ferrari, which can be assembled at leisure, all have lots of lousy paint as well, and my VW is like a mirror.
You'd think for as highly regarded as german engineers are, that they'd figure out a way to automate the painting process in the same way with a relative amount of efficiency. Machines that accept a unique paint canister for that particular color with disposable application components to prevent cross-color contamination. Sure, it would be a little slower than painting 1000 cars black, but it would definitely improve the level of consistency for PTS cars. Is there any technical reason beyond 'cost' for why Porsche has to hand paint PTS models?
I hate to see that you're having to deal with this! Just ran out to check on my touring and it looks like the coast is clear, but many of my cars have been a disaster from the factory. Audi was consistently bad under the lights and my leadfoot Ford Raptor actually had multiple paint runs and (obviously) tons of swirls.
As an aside: we have an old family pitbull who doesn't have a lot of time left and our kids have been arguing about what dog to get next (I say "she's not even dead yet!")... now they want a Samoyed after seeing the pictures on my screen. Beautiful dogs.
My car was looked over by Porsche DTLA and given the "a-okay" prior to being cleared to leave the lot on a flat bed to Moe at Glistening Perfection. It was only Moe and his team's attention to detail that picked up on the thin paint in the crease on top of the mirror. Could have easily been missed. I have some pictures that Moe took prior to having them re-painted, which I will post.
Here are pictures of the side view mirrors prior to being re-painted. The paint imperfections are subtle (or at least they were to me). These are the pictures Moe sent to me after discovering the paint imperfections as he was dismantling the car for a full wrap.
My car was looked over by Porsche DTLA and given the "a-okay" prior to being cleared to leave the lot on a flat bed to Moe at Glistening Perfection. It was only Moe and his team's attention to detail that picked up on the thin paint in the crease on top of the mirror. Could have easily been missed. I have some pictures that Moe took prior to having them re-painted, which I will post.
I ordered my 911 Turbo thru DTLA. They did a good job. But then the car was shipped to me. The following happened:
1. Ding in left rear fender (on top)
2. 3 inch long scratches into the paint on lower passenger door
3. 2 nicks on interior dash
4. Creases in driver seat on side bolster. Made it look like it had 5000 miles easily. 12 miles in reality.
5. Small nick in rear bumper.
6. Swirl marks galore.
I was livid.
It kinda ruined the delivery experience for me- shame since the car itself was a blast. Then I got a GT3. Ha
In general, it's a numbers game for manufacturers. By and large, GT buyers do not notice or care about relatively minor surface defects. So Porsche (and all others), build and engineer a QA process that keeps cost lower while meeting the needs of the majority of buyers. So why the uproar on Rennlist? We are in a vacuum of information being shared by subject professionals and, likely, some of the most passionate Porsche owners that openly share with others.
The way I view it is like this. If Porsche engineered a QA process that ensured the paint was practically perfect from the plant to the private owner's hands (while countless people handle it in between), these cars would likely cost $25,000+ more... and I still don't think they could effectively execute practical perfection regardless of effort. There are just too many hands that touch a car between the robots painting and the owner being handed the keys. But if we look at just what's required to actually level DA sanding marks left over from cleaning up runs and dust nibs, we will find very few that understand how to safely do that with the complex shapes where most sanding marks are located. And with the few qualified to do so, you will have a major delay in getting cars off the line as it can be wildly time consuming to level defects inside complex shapes. At this point not only is the cost going up but the supply is going down drastically.
I think Porsche is doing it right by standing behind their product and name by addressing concerns for those who speak up. This allows them to make more, keep the cost lower and satisfy the enthusiast who expects more as long as they keep stepping up when requested. Yes, it stinks that folks have to deal with it but I see it as either you pay an expert a few thousand to make the paint superb (or not if you're satisfied with what you get) or you pay $25,000+ more than you did...if you can actually get one when the production is greatly slowed. The problem comes in if they ever stop doing what it takes to please someone who is dissatisfied.
But on topic, here's a GT2RS after we merely performed a wash and chemical decontamination. The more carbon bits you have, the more hands are touching them and one gets this :
In general, it's a numbers game for manufacturers. By and large, GT buyers do not notice or care about relatively minor surface defects. So Porsche (and all others), build and engineer a QA process that keeps cost lower while meeting the needs of the majority of buyers. So why the uproar on Rennlist? We are in a vacuum of information being shared by subject professionals and, likely, some of the most passionate Porsche owners that openly share with others.
The way I view it is like this. If Porsche engineered a QA process that ensured the paint was practically perfect from the plant to the private owner's hands (while countless people handle it in between), these cars would likely cost $25,000+ more... and I still don't think they could effectively execute practical perfection regardless of effort. There are just too many hands that touch a car between the robots painting and the owner being handed the keys. But if we look at just what's required to actually level DA sanding marks left over from cleaning up runs and dust nibs, we will find very few that understand how to safely do that with the complex shapes where most sanding marks are located. And with the few qualified to do so, you will have a major delay in getting cars off the line as it can be wildly time consuming to level defects inside complex shapes. At this point not only is the cost going up but the supply is going down drastically.
I think Porsche is doing it right by standing behind their product and name by addressing concerns for those who speak up. This allows them to make more, keep the cost lower and satisfy the enthusiast who expects more as long as they keep stepping up when requested. Yes, it stinks that folks have to deal with it but I see it as either you pay an expert a few thousand to make the paint superb (or not if you're satisfied with what you get) or you pay $25,000+ more than you did...if you can actually get one when the production is greatly slowed. The problem comes in if they ever stop doing what it takes to please someone who is dissatisfied.
But on topic, here's a GT2RS after we merely performed a wash and chemical decontamination. The more carbon bits you have, the more hands are touching them and one gets this :
In general, it's a numbers game for manufacturers. By and large, GT buyers do not notice or care about relatively minor surface defects.
I respectfully disagree with that, at least from the circle of GT owners that I know of (myself included). We tend to be somewhat ****. If anything, I feel we hold PAG to an even higher standard (than say the plethora of 911 buyers that just pick a car from the showroom availability, with a lease/short term ownership POV).
In this round especially, when PTS spiked not by a percentage but by multiple (#13K), I absolutely expected flawless craftsmanship. What I didn't expect is to have to wait for it for 9 months (Feb prod moved to Oct with radio silence in between). Luckily little to no imperfections other than an occasional transport cover blemish, that was addressed during paint correction.
I agree with the good Dr. If I am going to pay $13,000 for paint, I would expect that it would come from the factory not requiring immediate touch-up work. To Porsche's credit, they gave me a $500 Porsche gift card to cover the cost of the paint work.
I agree with the good Dr. If I am going to pay $13,000 for paint, I would expect that it would come from the factory not requiring immediate touch-up work. To Porsche's credit, they gave me a $500 Porsche gift card to cover the cost of the paint work.
I respectfully disagree with that, at least from the circle of GT owners that I know of (myself included). We tend to be somewhat ****. If anything, I feel we hold PAG to an even higher standard (than say the plethora of 911 buyers that just pick a car from the showroom availability, with a lease/short term ownership POV).
In this round especially, when PTS spiked not by a percentage but by multiple (#13K), I absolutely expected flawless craftsmanship. What I didn't expect is to have to wait for it for 9 months (Feb prod moved to Oct with radio silence in between). Luckily little to no imperfections other than an occasional transport cover blemish, that was addressed during paint correction.
Originally Posted by Porsche911GTS'16
I agree with the good Dr. If I am going to pay $13,000 for paint, I would expect that it would come from the factory not requiring immediate touch-up work. To Porsche's credit, they gave me a $500 Porsche gift card to cover the cost of the paint work.
Excellent feedback and I hope someone from Porsche is reading.
Despite the minor issues we see, Porsche by far has the most consistent quality control of all the cars we see. We’re honored and privileged to specialize in the brand
06-19-2019, 01:28 AM
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