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Ferrari was all about making up 1 second faster laptime with newer model at Fiorano
Right.
But the point is that currently no one outside of the VW group (Porsche and Lambo being the two culprits) really competes in 'Ring times. At least official manufacturer 'Ring times.
They arent just fast like that around the ring, they're Fast in many racetracks around the world and also road courses. I think the weight distribution of a 911, if handled correctly, can be an advantage both under acceleration and braking... Then you add big wings for downforce, and you have a setup which works in your favor for competition.
I think the question should be why are Porsches so prevalent at every race track around the world? why are GT Porsches more common at the Nurburgring than a Renault Megane or Honda Civic? I have mistaken other GT3's for my own on several occasions at this tiny parking lot in a remote corner of Germany and its hilarious. The reason is the manufacturer and the owners of these cars love what they are and love to drive them where they belong. in this photo which was taken during Scuderia S7 (an all inclusive mark event) it might as well be a Porsche event. the only reason you see so many Skoda's there (VW group) is there was a Skoda school at the same time. in the background you can see one McLaren, one Mercedes, one BMW. You may see an occasional Ferrari. A few more Lamborghini's lately but really as rare as these Porsches are they are all at the track around the world on any given weekend. Second photo is at Monza. Notice lack of Italian stallions.
This is not an answer to your question but Porsches are one of few car makers whose cars actually can be driven lap after lap on Nürburgring.
Drive until the tank is empty.
You don't do that with most of the others: You need to upgrade brakes, add cooling etc.
I've been to events all over Europe and it is the same everywhere. The cars that usually are the fastest, with the best drivers and who do the most laps are Porsches. Every now and again you will have Speciale, GT-R, LT-Mclaren. The Ferraris only ever do a couple of laps, too few to even have time to break down. The GT-Rs and Corvettes always have some heat issues or go into limp mode, and McLarens are usually pretty quick (seems to me that there are a lot of ex Porsche guys who have gone to McLaren), but again they don't do nearly the same amount of laps as the Porsches.
Getting a fast car - say a GT-R and just being able to do two Ring-laps at a time would be very frustrating.
Many reviews are so focused on how fast the car are in one lap. Not how fast a car is over a day.
Most of us must travel far to get to a race track. When we are there we want decide when to drive or not. We don't want the car to decide that for us.
For me there is a practical side of the car choice:
How long does the brakes last?
How many laps can I do before refueling?
Do I fit in the car with a helmet on?
Is there space for me to store my pressure gauge, wallet and phone?
Etcetera
I like a car to be good looking and to be fun to drive but it must be practical too.
McLarens are usually pretty quick (seems to me that there are a lot of ex Porsche guys who have gone to McLaren), but again they don't do nearly the same amount of laps as the Porsches.
To be fair to Mclaren, that's also because their rate of fuel burn is vastly higher than a gt3rs and they have rather small fuel tanks!
What carrering says is true, Porsche GT cars are the most prevalent cars on track in Europe. Part of that is as Kobalt says the cars are more or less sorted as standard to do a good number of laps but also because they are priced at a lower level than a lot of other cars they are being compared against. if Porsche moved the GT car pricing overnight to Pista/LT levels, the numbers of cars on track would imo fall by a heck of a lot.
with regards to the actual ring times though, the VW factory times do seem spectacularly quick but they more than anyone else uses it for branding/marketing so they ensure those times are going to be good by whatever means they have to imo. SportAuto times (recently done with the same factory cars rather than press pool cars) have been similarly quick especially compared to what people with their own cars for seem to be able to do for example. Some of that is of course due to them having a clear track rather than on a general closed trackday but as been noted by some other members, other vln drivers who have been at least as successful as Christian Gebhardt seem to be over 20 seconds slower in their own cars....
Porsche puts the BIGGEST and best tires on their GT/ RS cars. This alone gives them repeatable laptimes or much more approachable laptimes.
For instance- the 265/325 tires on
the 2014 918,
2016 RS and
2019 RS and now CUP2R tires are faster still. Just in tire tech the 'Ring lap times are 5 seconds ahead and cup2R perhaps 5 seconds still ahead of that. So since 2014, almost 10 seconds in tire technology.
They can afford to co develop this because they make thousands of potential customer cars and therefore safely marketable tire customers.
Quick equation:
1000 675 LT's, 375 P1's had 305 rear section Pirellis. If 50% of those customers have replaced tires in last ownership cycle, then Pirelli has sold 2100 sets of tires total.
4500 GT3RS 2016
918 918's.
If 50% of those guys replaced tires, now Michelin has sold 8127 sets of tires. But the real number is probably closer to 10k. Reality is that some GT3 and GT3RS guys are on their 4th or 5th set of tires. Now add
XXXX GT2RS gen2
XXXX GT3RS gen2
And Michelin is selling another 3-4-5-6 whatever thousand RS 265/325 tires.
Meanwhile Pirelli is just delivering the 600LT and Senna tires (which are different sizes from each other and therefore different molds)
It's a tire war. Never forget that angle!
Also- Porsche's test Driver's are the BEST in the industry. McLaren and Ferrari test Driver's will not risk the car like Porsche dudes. Chris Goodwin does not equate to "Ring Ace" and never could put the lap together in the P1 which has proven on F1 type circuits to be faster than 918 on occasion.
Quick equation:
1000 675 LT's, 375 P1's had 305 rear section Pirellis. If 50% of those customers have replaced tires in last ownership cycle, then Pirelli has sold 2100 sets of tires total.
Meanwhile Pirelli is just delivering the 600LT and Senna tires (which are different sizes from each other and therefore different molds)
It's a tire war. Never forget that angle!
Also- Porsche's test Driver's are the BEST in the industry. McLaren and Ferrari test Driver's will not risk the car like Porsche dudes. Chris Goodwin does not equate to "Ring Ace" and never could put the lap together in the P1 which has proven on F1 type circuits to be faster than 918 on occasion.
Hold on, the 305/30/20 Mclaren tyre was also used in about 3500 12c's and 3000 650s as well. Oh and also over a thousand and counting 720s.
It's the P1 that sits a bit apart as it was standard with a 315/30/20 corsa and the option trofeo was a non MC spec 305/30/20 that was bigger than the 315 OEM corsa.
While I obviously agree that Porsche has much more clout with tyre manufacturers than Mclaren your numbers used above are a bit selective...
Answer to why you see more GT cars on track
Reliability - Porsches can take a beating at the track all day and still be driven home in one piece
Entry price - the MSRP of a GT3 (and even the GT3RS) is much lower than Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLarens
Parts - Porsche parts aren’t cheap but compared to the others they are a bargain
Service - Porsche lends itself to some DIY and many can do their own wrenching. Try that in a McLaren!
Dealer support - dealers don’t automatically void warranties if the car is used on track, some dealers actually support/encourage track use. Other brands, not so much
Value retention - yes the dreaded value topic, however a GT3 with 10,000 miles (20% of those on track), will likely hold its value (% depreciation) better than a Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren of equal use
Finally Clubs/Culture - Porsche Car clubs have a culture of DE’s and track events that other marque brands just don’t match (probably for the reasons above)
Answer to why Porsches are faster on track
Posche owners who track their cars are a testosterone fueled, crazy, thrill-seeking bunch! We just go flat out...there is no substitute and we don’t compromise. LOL
Why are 911, esp GT variants so fast around nurburgring? or any other tracks in general.
911 doesn't have fancy bells and whistles like CF monocoque like McLaren's
Nor, does it have better power to weight ratio. Such as GT2RS to McLaren 720s
And it has RR layout compared to other brand's MR layout.
So, why is it so fast? Just better German engineering?
Basically, cheater tires.
It started back in the 996.2 GT3 RS era. They shod Pirelli Corsa race compound street legal tires to a car that was nearly identical to the 996.2 GT3, the result: the 996RS dropped 7 secs on the Nurburgring lap.
When the 997.1 GT3 came out, it was shod with Michelin Pillot Sport Cups (another r-comp tire), while the competitors were still running real street tires. Porsche GT cars since 2004 have always been ahead in the cheater tire department (except 2 times where the C7Z07 and the last Viper ACR-E got better rubber, and the Carrera GT didn't get a decent tire).
Then there is the size: My 265/325 stock 991 RS tires mounted on stock wheels are almost as wide as the 295/345 Hoosiers I have mounted on my track wheels, and as wide as my C7Z07 285/335 tires.
Except the Vette, AMG GTR, Viper ACR-E, the competitors are running on less sticky rubber and/or narrower sizes.
I have been on track with an upgraded springs, proper camber, BMW M4 3.0TT manual transmission running on better rubber (265/305), the owner is a very experienced driver, at his local track (a 90 seconds lap) he dropped 4 seconds a lap just on tires/springs/camber plates. His tire choice: front ones from a 991.1 GT3 RS and rear ones from a 991.2 GT3 that's on Cup2. On Cup2R or equivalent grip he should drop another 1.5 secs (84.5 secs projected lap). A 991.1 GT3 RS in stock configuration and well driven runs 1:25 on that same track, my best lap with my RS is a 1:22 from nearly a year ago but on a set of race headers and Hoosier tires, and my best ever a 1:21 in my 991 TTS.
It is just about tires: put something big and sticky, and if your track doesn't have crazy high speeds, put something much bigger even if they stick out of the fender lines.
...the BMW M4 described above is going for aero, track day seats, light muffler and a tune. He will clearly be able to run faster times than most GT3s out there, but for 2-3 laps.
Lapping longevity in Porsche GT cars, well that's another topic, and there is no better street car that is this capable and dependable for track days.
10-17-2018, 11:55 PM
Why are 911 so fast around N-Ring?
