PEC - tipping?
10-19-2019, 12:19 AM
#31
Drifting
You sound angry. Have you considered choosing to just not tip if it angers you so much? Also, to admit that you are drunk at the airport bar at 6am on the way to your son's spring break indicates there may be other things to worry about more than too much tipping. Best of luck.
10-19-2019, 12:41 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Interesting thread. Other than the expected in restaurants with table service, I enjoy tipping when I feel someone really gave extra effort to provide a good customer experience. As for tipping at Subway and Moe's? Please. I stood in line, waited for my food, sat down, ate and cleaned/bussed my own table. That tip jar is an insult to their customers. Yet, somehow I feel guilty about not adding a buck or two.
The worst for me was Exotics Racing in Vegas. From the moment you walk in, they are priming you for tips - in the orientation video, the car walk-around, the drive (which btw they completely dictate every single move you make), and even walking back into the office. Only place I ever spent $849 for about 15 minutes of astronomically-overpriced entertainment - and I still had someone asking me for a tip...
The worst for me was Exotics Racing in Vegas. From the moment you walk in, they are priming you for tips - in the orientation video, the car walk-around, the drive (which btw they completely dictate every single move you make), and even walking back into the office. Only place I ever spent $849 for about 15 minutes of astronomically-overpriced entertainment - and I still had someone asking me for a tip...
10-19-2019, 02:32 AM
#33
Race Director
https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas...workers-today/
https://time.com/5404475/history-tip...nts-civil-war/
Americans especially don't really study history, they aren't taught to connect or relate to the past in order to better interpret the present. The history and origin of tipping is a very sad one, and overwhelmingly affects the welfare of workers in our society since the days of slavery to today. In short, tipping allows for workers to be dramatically underpaid.. i'm not trying to make a political argument here, but its a well-known historical fact, and an easily demonstrated economic principle if you care to learn about it. Tipping, keeps people poor.
if you're in doubt.. look no further than your PEC employees in Germany and compare them to their US counterparts.. the standard of living of both, from pay to healthcare benefits to purchasing power.. is dramatically different. I had this very convo with an American PEC worker who moved to Germany doing the same job... but i've been acutely aware of the perverse effects of this practice since I moved to this country and had my first job as a "server" in a restaurant.
After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.
“These industries demanded the right to basically continue slavery with a $0 wage and tip,” Jayaraman says.
How tipping works today is pretty much the way it has since a New Deal-era solidification of the federal minimum wage for tipped workers, Jayaraman explains. Beginning with 1938 legislation, employers were only required to pay tipped workers a wage that would add up to the federal minimum wage when combined with tips. Further legislation was passed in the 1970s to offer fairer wages for restaurant workers. Today, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13. (The main federal minimum wage is $7.25.)
Only seven states mandate that all workers, regardless of tips, must be paid the “full state minimum wage before tips,” according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
“It’s the legacy of slavery that turned the tip in the United States from a bonus or extra on top of a wage,” Jayaraman argues, “to a wage itself.”
A common explanation for gratuity’s prominence in the restaurant industry today is the incentive it provides for servers to work harder. But modern research questions the validity of that assumption. For example, Michael Lynn of Cornell’s 2001 paper “Restaurant Tipping and Service Quality: A Tenuous Relationship” highlights various ways restaurateurs rely on tips as a marker of server performance but posits that using tips as a measure of effort or as motivation for hard work is ineffective, and that there is little to no correlation between tips and performance. “Restaurant managers need to find and use other means of accomplishing those tasks,” he wrote.
However, abolishing tipping is much easier said than done from a financial perspective, as restaurants might have to raise menu prices to fill the gap. “As a culture, since we underpay for the quality of the food that we eat [in the United States], then that presents a dilemma where the customer doesn’t want to pay for the food,” Miller says.
And even if American consumers were willing to pay a higher price tag for food, Miller says this isn’t what all servers want. There are many waiters around the country living on the poverty line, Miller says, and working a busy Friday or Saturday night shift feels like a way to make more money — even though research shows that’s not usually the case overall. The Economic Policy Institute, a nonprofit think tank, says that the poverty rate among restaurant workers is significantly lower (at only 7%, versus 18%) in states where restaurants are required to pay minimum wage as a base salary.
Despite tipping’s growing prominence, many remained unhappy about the custom in the years following Reconstruction. Six states temporarily abolished the practice in 1915. In 1918, Georgia’s legislature deemed tips as “commercial bribes,” or tips for the purpose of influencing service, illegal. Iowa’s initial 1915 decision said that those who accepted a gratuity of any kind — not those who gave the money themselves — could be fined or imprisoned.
Even with that pushback, the practice grew in popularity in many Southern states. By 1926, all of these laws had been repealed or deemed unconstitutional by the respective state’s Supreme Court, according to Kerry Segrave’s Tipping: An American Social History of Gratitudes.
Restaurateurs soon realized that they stood to benefit from the opportunity to subsidize a worker’s pay with guests’ extra money, says Douglass Miller, a lecturer at the Hotel School of the SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University. So, even as the racial dynamics of the United States evolved, the practice spread throughout the country — including in the North — and stuck.
Tipping, keeps people at the poverty line.. it's a sick sick practice at all levels.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tip...nts-civil-war/
Americans especially don't really study history, they aren't taught to connect or relate to the past in order to better interpret the present. The history and origin of tipping is a very sad one, and overwhelmingly affects the welfare of workers in our society since the days of slavery to today. In short, tipping allows for workers to be dramatically underpaid.. i'm not trying to make a political argument here, but its a well-known historical fact, and an easily demonstrated economic principle if you care to learn about it. Tipping, keeps people poor.
if you're in doubt.. look no further than your PEC employees in Germany and compare them to their US counterparts.. the standard of living of both, from pay to healthcare benefits to purchasing power.. is dramatically different. I had this very convo with an American PEC worker who moved to Germany doing the same job... but i've been acutely aware of the perverse effects of this practice since I moved to this country and had my first job as a "server" in a restaurant.
After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.
How tipping works today is pretty much the way it has since a New Deal-era solidification of the federal minimum wage for tipped workers, Jayaraman explains. Beginning with 1938 legislation, employers were only required to pay tipped workers a wage that would add up to the federal minimum wage when combined with tips. Further legislation was passed in the 1970s to offer fairer wages for restaurant workers. Today, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13. (The main federal minimum wage is $7.25.)
Only seven states mandate that all workers, regardless of tips, must be paid the “full state minimum wage before tips,” according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
“It’s the legacy of slavery that turned the tip in the United States from a bonus or extra on top of a wage,” Jayaraman argues, “to a wage itself.”
A common explanation for gratuity’s prominence in the restaurant industry today is the incentive it provides for servers to work harder. But modern research questions the validity of that assumption. For example, Michael Lynn of Cornell’s 2001 paper “Restaurant Tipping and Service Quality: A Tenuous Relationship” highlights various ways restaurateurs rely on tips as a marker of server performance but posits that using tips as a measure of effort or as motivation for hard work is ineffective, and that there is little to no correlation between tips and performance. “Restaurant managers need to find and use other means of accomplishing those tasks,” he wrote.
However, abolishing tipping is much easier said than done from a financial perspective, as restaurants might have to raise menu prices to fill the gap. “As a culture, since we underpay for the quality of the food that we eat [in the United States], then that presents a dilemma where the customer doesn’t want to pay for the food,” Miller says.
Despite tipping’s growing prominence, many remained unhappy about the custom in the years following Reconstruction. Six states temporarily abolished the practice in 1915. In 1918, Georgia’s legislature deemed tips as “commercial bribes,” or tips for the purpose of influencing service, illegal. Iowa’s initial 1915 decision said that those who accepted a gratuity of any kind — not those who gave the money themselves — could be fined or imprisoned.
Even with that pushback, the practice grew in popularity in many Southern states. By 1926, all of these laws had been repealed or deemed unconstitutional by the respective state’s Supreme Court, according to Kerry Segrave’s Tipping: An American Social History of Gratitudes.
Restaurateurs soon realized that they stood to benefit from the opportunity to subsidize a worker’s pay with guests’ extra money, says Douglass Miller, a lecturer at the Hotel School of the SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University. So, even as the racial dynamics of the United States evolved, the practice spread throughout the country — including in the North — and stuck.
Tipping, keeps people at the poverty line.. it's a sick sick practice at all levels.
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10-19-2019, 02:33 AM
#34
2nd Gear
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EU Tipping
Don't most places accept tips by phone?
10-19-2019, 07:18 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas...workers-today/
https://time.com/5404475/history-tip...nts-civil-war/
Americans especially don't really study history, they aren't taught to connect or relate to the past in order to better interpret the present. The history and origin of tipping is a very sad one, and overwhelmingly affects the welfare of workers in our society since the days of slavery to today. In short, tipping allows for workers to be dramatically underpaid.. i'm not trying to make a political argument here, but its a well-known historical fact, and an easily demonstrated economic principle if you care to learn about it. Tipping, keeps people poor.
if you're in doubt.. look no further than your PEC employees in Germany and compare them to their US counterparts.. the standard of living of both, from pay to healthcare benefits to purchasing power.. is dramatically different. I had this very convo with an American PEC worker who moved to Germany doing the same job... but i've been acutely aware of the perverse effects of this practice since I moved to this country and had my first job as a "server" in a restaurant.
After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.
“These industries demanded the right to basically continue slavery with a $0 wage and tip,” Jayaraman says.
How tipping works today is pretty much the way it has since a New Deal-era solidification of the federal minimum wage for tipped workers, Jayaraman explains. Beginning with 1938 legislation, employers were only required to pay tipped workers a wage that would add up to the federal minimum wage when combined with tips. Further legislation was passed in the 1970s to offer fairer wages for restaurant workers. Today, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13. (The main federal minimum wage is $7.25.)
Only seven states mandate that all workers, regardless of tips, must be paid the “full state minimum wage before tips,” according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
“It’s the legacy of slavery that turned the tip in the United States from a bonus or extra on top of a wage,” Jayaraman argues, “to a wage itself.”
A common explanation for gratuity’s prominence in the restaurant industry today is the incentive it provides for servers to work harder. But modern research questions the validity of that assumption. For example, Michael Lynn of Cornell’s 2001 paper “Restaurant Tipping and Service Quality: A Tenuous Relationship” highlights various ways restaurateurs rely on tips as a marker of server performance but posits that using tips as a measure of effort or as motivation for hard work is ineffective, and that there is little to no correlation between tips and performance. “Restaurant managers need to find and use other means of accomplishing those tasks,” he wrote.
However, abolishing tipping is much easier said than done from a financial perspective, as restaurants might have to raise menu prices to fill the gap. “As a culture, since we underpay for the quality of the food that we eat [in the United States], then that presents a dilemma where the customer doesn’t want to pay for the food,” Miller says.
And even if American consumers were willing to pay a higher price tag for food, Miller says this isn’t what all servers want. There are many waiters around the country living on the poverty line, Miller says, and working a busy Friday or Saturday night shift feels like a way to make more money — even though research shows that’s not usually the case overall. The Economic Policy Institute, a nonprofit think tank, says that the poverty rate among restaurant workers is significantly lower (at only 7%, versus 18%) in states where restaurants are required to pay minimum wage as a base salary.
Despite tipping’s growing prominence, many remained unhappy about the custom in the years following Reconstruction. Six states temporarily abolished the practice in 1915. In 1918, Georgia’s legislature deemed tips as “commercial bribes,” or tips for the purpose of influencing service, illegal. Iowa’s initial 1915 decision said that those who accepted a gratuity of any kind — not those who gave the money themselves — could be fined or imprisoned.
Even with that pushback, the practice grew in popularity in many Southern states. By 1926, all of these laws had been repealed or deemed unconstitutional by the respective state’s Supreme Court, according to Kerry Segrave’s Tipping: An American Social History of Gratitudes.
Restaurateurs soon realized that they stood to benefit from the opportunity to subsidize a worker’s pay with guests’ extra money, says Douglass Miller, a lecturer at the Hotel School of the SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University. So, even as the racial dynamics of the United States evolved, the practice spread throughout the country — including in the North — and stuck.
Tipping, keeps people at the poverty line.. it's a sick sick practice at all levels.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tip...nts-civil-war/
Americans especially don't really study history, they aren't taught to connect or relate to the past in order to better interpret the present. The history and origin of tipping is a very sad one, and overwhelmingly affects the welfare of workers in our society since the days of slavery to today. In short, tipping allows for workers to be dramatically underpaid.. i'm not trying to make a political argument here, but its a well-known historical fact, and an easily demonstrated economic principle if you care to learn about it. Tipping, keeps people poor.
if you're in doubt.. look no further than your PEC employees in Germany and compare them to their US counterparts.. the standard of living of both, from pay to healthcare benefits to purchasing power.. is dramatically different. I had this very convo with an American PEC worker who moved to Germany doing the same job... but i've been acutely aware of the perverse effects of this practice since I moved to this country and had my first job as a "server" in a restaurant.
After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.
How tipping works today is pretty much the way it has since a New Deal-era solidification of the federal minimum wage for tipped workers, Jayaraman explains. Beginning with 1938 legislation, employers were only required to pay tipped workers a wage that would add up to the federal minimum wage when combined with tips. Further legislation was passed in the 1970s to offer fairer wages for restaurant workers. Today, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13. (The main federal minimum wage is $7.25.)
Only seven states mandate that all workers, regardless of tips, must be paid the “full state minimum wage before tips,” according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
“It’s the legacy of slavery that turned the tip in the United States from a bonus or extra on top of a wage,” Jayaraman argues, “to a wage itself.”
A common explanation for gratuity’s prominence in the restaurant industry today is the incentive it provides for servers to work harder. But modern research questions the validity of that assumption. For example, Michael Lynn of Cornell’s 2001 paper “Restaurant Tipping and Service Quality: A Tenuous Relationship” highlights various ways restaurateurs rely on tips as a marker of server performance but posits that using tips as a measure of effort or as motivation for hard work is ineffective, and that there is little to no correlation between tips and performance. “Restaurant managers need to find and use other means of accomplishing those tasks,” he wrote.
However, abolishing tipping is much easier said than done from a financial perspective, as restaurants might have to raise menu prices to fill the gap. “As a culture, since we underpay for the quality of the food that we eat [in the United States], then that presents a dilemma where the customer doesn’t want to pay for the food,” Miller says.
Despite tipping’s growing prominence, many remained unhappy about the custom in the years following Reconstruction. Six states temporarily abolished the practice in 1915. In 1918, Georgia’s legislature deemed tips as “commercial bribes,” or tips for the purpose of influencing service, illegal. Iowa’s initial 1915 decision said that those who accepted a gratuity of any kind — not those who gave the money themselves — could be fined or imprisoned.
Even with that pushback, the practice grew in popularity in many Southern states. By 1926, all of these laws had been repealed or deemed unconstitutional by the respective state’s Supreme Court, according to Kerry Segrave’s Tipping: An American Social History of Gratitudes.
Restaurateurs soon realized that they stood to benefit from the opportunity to subsidize a worker’s pay with guests’ extra money, says Douglass Miller, a lecturer at the Hotel School of the SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University. So, even as the racial dynamics of the United States evolved, the practice spread throughout the country — including in the North — and stuck.
Tipping, keeps people at the poverty line.. it's a sick sick practice at all levels.
10-19-2019, 11:48 AM
#36
Couple of points:
-I've probably gone to 4-5 PEC events and never thought of tipping. And if I did, how much- $10, $20, $100?
-what's even more annoying is when you go to a restaurant or cafe, place your order at the counter and the young worker flips over the display for you to sign for the credit card and it forces you to add a tip, all the while they are starring at you. I wonder if the tips even go to them or to the business.
-I've probably gone to 4-5 PEC events and never thought of tipping. And if I did, how much- $10, $20, $100?
-what's even more annoying is when you go to a restaurant or cafe, place your order at the counter and the young worker flips over the display for you to sign for the credit card and it forces you to add a tip, all the while they are starring at you. I wonder if the tips even go to them or to the business.
10-19-2019, 02:25 PM
#38
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Couple of points:
-I've probably gone to 4-5 PEC events and never thought of tipping. And if I did, how much- $10, $20, $100?
-what's even more annoying is when you go to a restaurant or cafe, place your order at the counter and the young worker flips over the display for you to sign for the credit card and it forces you to add a tip, all the while they are starring at you. I wonder if the tips even go to them or to the business.
-I've probably gone to 4-5 PEC events and never thought of tipping. And if I did, how much- $10, $20, $100?
-what's even more annoying is when you go to a restaurant or cafe, place your order at the counter and the young worker flips over the display for you to sign for the credit card and it forces you to add a tip, all the while they are starring at you. I wonder if the tips even go to them or to the business.
10-19-2019, 10:13 PM
#39
Interesting thread. Other than the expected in restaurants with table service, I enjoy tipping when I feel someone really gave extra effort to provide a good customer experience. As for tipping at Subway and Moe's? Please. I stood in line, waited for my food, sat down, ate and cleaned/bussed my own table. That tip jar is an insult to their customers. Yet, somehow I feel guilty about not adding a buck or two.
The worst for me was Exotics Racing in Vegas. From the moment you walk in, they are priming you for tips - in the orientation video, the car walk-around, the drive (which btw they completely dictate every single move you make), and even walking back into the office. Only place I ever spent $849 for about 15 minutes of astronomically-overpriced entertainment - and I still had someone asking me for a tip...
The worst for me was Exotics Racing in Vegas. From the moment you walk in, they are priming you for tips - in the orientation video, the car walk-around, the drive (which btw they completely dictate every single move you make), and even walking back into the office. Only place I ever spent $849 for about 15 minutes of astronomically-overpriced entertainment - and I still had someone asking me for a tip...
LOL. I had the same experience at exotics racing fontana. I can't remember if it was like the first or second thing in the orientation was to tip the instructors as most were poor out of luck race car drivers. I did appreciate however that they sent me, without charge, my Porsche hat which I left in the helmet area.
I always used to argue with my old college roommate who was a bartender, and now my wife whose family owns a bunch of Italian restaurants about tipping. People 'in the business' seem to think it is automatically a right to make 20% just for showing up. I always tip a lot for great service, but I think it should be for GREAT SERVICE.
Jim
02-20-2023, 11:13 PM
#41
Racer
Basically, yes. And it's out of control IMO. At half of the places you go to eat today the only value added by the staff is turning the iPad around so you can choose from 20, 25, and 30% tip, at a restaurant where you pickup your food at a counter and refill your own drink.
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