Georg Kacher calling it - 992 GT3 is turbo (410kw)
02-19-2018, 07:21 PM
#136
Burning Brakes
A smaller dimensioned 911-esque car, weighting around 2600 lbs with a 350hp NA engine and a 6-speed manual would be sweet. Get rid of all the heavy bits and make it stripped down with analog gauges etc. That's honestly what the new 911T should have been or the cayman for that matter.
02-19-2018, 08:17 PM
#139
Race Director
02-19-2018, 08:55 PM
#141
Rennlist Member
more devil advicate
i agree gt car is too fast and I even venture to say it will soon b too fast even for hamilton, alonso, and any f1 champ. human only can process info so fast
so... we then say maybe make less power but better feel less wt ya
i agree one one side but the other side the devil says cars are toy. and if we aren’t alpha dogs we won’t be successful enough to have made the $ needed to buy this toy. so at the bar I will tell u my d*ck is bigger and my car has more hp. u will tell
me ur short toy has better technique and low ho car handles better. u might be right. but I assure u my line of speech is easier to brag.
look at biccyles. UCI has lower wt limit. ur bike has to be >15#. BUT consumers and ppl who can’t ride to save their lives buy high end bikes at 12#. why? bc they win the tour? no, bc they can tell u their toy is better
if u follow this line of logic (highly flawed but common) , porsche has no place to go but increase HP.
Ur neighbor c2 with turbo boosted to 1000 hp blows ur door off u see him at bar.... let’s hear the convo
not saying any of the above makes any sense but I like to hear rebuttals
PAG is in an interesting spot. they are screw every which way no?
i agree gt car is too fast and I even venture to say it will soon b too fast even for hamilton, alonso, and any f1 champ. human only can process info so fast
so... we then say maybe make less power but better feel less wt ya
i agree one one side but the other side the devil says cars are toy. and if we aren’t alpha dogs we won’t be successful enough to have made the $ needed to buy this toy. so at the bar I will tell u my d*ck is bigger and my car has more hp. u will tell
me ur short toy has better technique and low ho car handles better. u might be right. but I assure u my line of speech is easier to brag.
look at biccyles. UCI has lower wt limit. ur bike has to be >15#. BUT consumers and ppl who can’t ride to save their lives buy high end bikes at 12#. why? bc they win the tour? no, bc they can tell u their toy is better
if u follow this line of logic (highly flawed but common) , porsche has no place to go but increase HP.
Ur neighbor c2 with turbo boosted to 1000 hp blows ur door off u see him at bar.... let’s hear the convo
not saying any of the above makes any sense but I like to hear rebuttals
PAG is in an interesting spot. they are screw every which way no?
^ Good "advocation."
All I'll say to the contrary is to look at CGT (particularly), latest Miata (particularly), Elise (kind of…), Abarth 500 (to some extent...), and some others: Make a simple car for enthusiasts, or one that at least seems simple, using materials technology and technique. Make it different—like a road bicycle vs a mountain bike or beachfront cruiser.
Look at the current Mini, which isn't so Mini. It shouldn't be—and can't be—like the original Mini. But look at the first modern Mini. In 2002, it was spot on. Great size, unusually good style, wonderful proportions, fun to drive, so-so engine, awful interior. BMW/Mini could have done what Porsche did with the 1965-1998 911: Kept the tub in production and kept evolving it, finding improvements throughout. I could see customers returning for another, and another, and another. The second modern Mini was okay, sort of. Everything after that has been grim.
So I think there is a place in 2018 for elemental cars—and is any manufacturer better situated in terms of heritage than Porsche to do one as a premium product? That doesn't mean they have to be uncomfortable, or awful to live with. I don't know what the powertrain should be (IC? Electric with straight-cut GT3 Cup gears?) and unlike some don't care all that much—but it needs to be achingly good looking and FUN.
02-19-2018, 08:58 PM
#142
Rennlist Member
Sized like a 993 or, at most, narrow 996. 2.2- or 2.5-liter 9A2 flat six. Simplified everything, and not much standard (let customers load them up if need be). Apply all lessons learned on materials technology, weighing only against cost.
It would take ***** to produce it...and, probably, a platform that could be shared someplace else.
It would take ***** to produce it...and, probably, a platform that could be shared someplace else.
02-19-2018, 09:16 PM
#143
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Sized like a 993 or, at most, narrow 996. 2.2- or 2.5-liter 9A2 flat six. Simplified everything, and not much standard (let customers load them up if need be). Apply all lessons learned on materials technology, weighing only against cost.
It would take ***** to produce it...and, probably, a platform that could be shared someplace else.
It would take ***** to produce it...and, probably, a platform that could be shared someplace else.
In the absence of one, however, I will focus my lust on the Singer which at least has the benefit of existing.
Rob - I get why people would look to the 4.0, but for me the custom tailoring with the Singer build (exquisite interiors and exteriors), together with usable back seats and more road focused nature make it a much better fit for me.
02-19-2018, 09:38 PM
#145
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
^ Good "advocation."
All I'll say to the contrary is to look at CGT (particularly), latest Miata (particularly), Elise (kind of…), Abarth 500 (to some extent...), and some others: Make a simple car for enthusiasts, or one that at least seems simple, using materials technology and technique. Make it different—like a road bicycle vs a mountain bike or beachfront cruiser.
Look at the current Mini, which isn't so Mini. It shouldn't be—and can't be—like the original Mini. But look at the first modern Mini. In 2002, it was spot on. Great size, unusually good style, wonderful proportions, fun to drive, so-so engine, awful interior. BMW/Mini could have done what Porsche did with the 1965-1998 911: Kept the tub in production and kept evolving it, finding improvements throughout. I could see customers returning for another, and another, and another. The second modern Mini was okay, sort of. Everything after that has been grim.
So I think there is a place in 2018 for elemental cars—and is any manufacturer better situated in terms of heritage than Porsche to do one as a premium product? That doesn't mean they have to be uncomfortable, or awful to live with. I don't know what the powertrain should be (IC? Electric with straight-cut GT3 Cup gears?) and unlike some don't care all that much—but it needs to be achingly good looking and FUN.
All I'll say to the contrary is to look at CGT (particularly), latest Miata (particularly), Elise (kind of…), Abarth 500 (to some extent...), and some others: Make a simple car for enthusiasts, or one that at least seems simple, using materials technology and technique. Make it different—like a road bicycle vs a mountain bike or beachfront cruiser.
Look at the current Mini, which isn't so Mini. It shouldn't be—and can't be—like the original Mini. But look at the first modern Mini. In 2002, it was spot on. Great size, unusually good style, wonderful proportions, fun to drive, so-so engine, awful interior. BMW/Mini could have done what Porsche did with the 1965-1998 911: Kept the tub in production and kept evolving it, finding improvements throughout. I could see customers returning for another, and another, and another. The second modern Mini was okay, sort of. Everything after that has been grim.
So I think there is a place in 2018 for elemental cars—and is any manufacturer better situated in terms of heritage than Porsche to do one as a premium product? That doesn't mean they have to be uncomfortable, or awful to live with. I don't know what the powertrain should be (IC? Electric with straight-cut GT3 Cup gears?) and unlike some don't care all that much—but it needs to be achingly good looking and FUN.
that is the real question.
02-19-2018, 09:45 PM
#146
Race Director
Such a thing would be amazing!
In the absence of one, however, I will focus my lust on the Singer which at least has the benefit of existing.
Rob - I get why people would look to the 4.0, but for me the custom tailoring with the Singer build (exquisite interiors and exteriors), together with usable back seats and more road focused nature make it a much better fit for me.
In the absence of one, however, I will focus my lust on the Singer which at least has the benefit of existing.
Rob - I get why people would look to the 4.0, but for me the custom tailoring with the Singer build (exquisite interiors and exteriors), together with usable back seats and more road focused nature make it a much better fit for me.
02-19-2018, 09:56 PM
#147
Race Director
This is one of the best posts I have read about the 930 Turbo.
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-turb...for-930-a.html
A 930 will loosen the fillings in your teeth on most roads. There is nothing more tactile. No power steering and a suspension stiff enough to put you into back surgery. If you want raw, you are gonna get raw down to the nub. These cars are dinosaurs with early 70s technology and feel/drive like it. I dont drive mine a ton so it does have that sense of occasion and is thrilling. Ive driven it on 3hr getaways. But honestly after about an hour Im ready to get out of the thing. Loud, hot, rough-riding, hates idling if you hit a traffic snarl, etc. -- and mine is a garage queen. Everything is a major compromises where a modern Turbo you just get in and let it rip. If its 100F outside or raining, you arent worried whether the A/C is adequate or your window seals are gonna leak. Unless youre in the '89, the 4-speed feels like you're shifting a Freightliner. Every tranny is different and has its "way you gotta row the gears" methodology to it so it plays nice. Ive never driven two 930s 4-speeds that shifted the same. That said if you want to throw stupid BHP at the car, its the gearbox to have. Its built like an Alabama shythouse it just doesn't like to be rushed to go #2.
I drive my Cayman S as a daily. Its no less fun to drive IMHO because I can drive it every day w/o needing to talk myself into it. Part of the fun is it doesnt fight back. Comfort wise its like living in a Bentley Continental compared to the 930.
Any money is probably safe in a 930 if you get out of your 997. These are long-term steady stocks like Coca Cola. The first widowmakers that changed the game in high-end turbo sports cars. But, honestly the 964TT is a way better car in almost every way. More rare too. You can probably have one for the same money. I get that its not the first iteration and doesnt have quite the profile, accordian bumper, Miami Vice persona, but the leap from the 930 to the 964 was like going from b/w TV to 4K. Im not saying Id rather have a 964TT over my 930. Im just trying to add some context to where you're coming from and where you're considering heading to and what options in between might be a better fit. You can spend a lot less and find equal or better joy. So many great bargains out there in the Porsche world. To me, a 6-figure+ car better just about walk on water. I got in when these things were in the low $30s (and that was realllllly stretching for a good one). I dont think I could be talked into buy one now where values currently are, not when I can buy an early 991 Turbo S or GT3 for the same dough.
The 993 Turbos are floating for similar money and Ive had thoughts of more or less swapping into one of those -- for similar reasons -- its a monumental leap in livability and reliability yet better performance and fully depreciated so similar long-term upside. Whats holding me back is 15yrs of ownership in the 930 so we've gotten close to one another. And Im really not interested in anything different than what I already have unless its a PTS car and those are hard to find in 993TT's and bring a premium.
When the fricking snow melts and I pull my 930 out of the garage and go for a drive for the first time in 5 and a half months, disregard everything I just said.
That last line was a classic! And yes, i want modern 930 Turbo looking car. I want to drive it.
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-turb...for-930-a.html
A 930 will loosen the fillings in your teeth on most roads. There is nothing more tactile. No power steering and a suspension stiff enough to put you into back surgery. If you want raw, you are gonna get raw down to the nub. These cars are dinosaurs with early 70s technology and feel/drive like it. I dont drive mine a ton so it does have that sense of occasion and is thrilling. Ive driven it on 3hr getaways. But honestly after about an hour Im ready to get out of the thing. Loud, hot, rough-riding, hates idling if you hit a traffic snarl, etc. -- and mine is a garage queen. Everything is a major compromises where a modern Turbo you just get in and let it rip. If its 100F outside or raining, you arent worried whether the A/C is adequate or your window seals are gonna leak. Unless youre in the '89, the 4-speed feels like you're shifting a Freightliner. Every tranny is different and has its "way you gotta row the gears" methodology to it so it plays nice. Ive never driven two 930s 4-speeds that shifted the same. That said if you want to throw stupid BHP at the car, its the gearbox to have. Its built like an Alabama shythouse it just doesn't like to be rushed to go #2.
I drive my Cayman S as a daily. Its no less fun to drive IMHO because I can drive it every day w/o needing to talk myself into it. Part of the fun is it doesnt fight back. Comfort wise its like living in a Bentley Continental compared to the 930.
Any money is probably safe in a 930 if you get out of your 997. These are long-term steady stocks like Coca Cola. The first widowmakers that changed the game in high-end turbo sports cars. But, honestly the 964TT is a way better car in almost every way. More rare too. You can probably have one for the same money. I get that its not the first iteration and doesnt have quite the profile, accordian bumper, Miami Vice persona, but the leap from the 930 to the 964 was like going from b/w TV to 4K. Im not saying Id rather have a 964TT over my 930. Im just trying to add some context to where you're coming from and where you're considering heading to and what options in between might be a better fit. You can spend a lot less and find equal or better joy. So many great bargains out there in the Porsche world. To me, a 6-figure+ car better just about walk on water. I got in when these things were in the low $30s (and that was realllllly stretching for a good one). I dont think I could be talked into buy one now where values currently are, not when I can buy an early 991 Turbo S or GT3 for the same dough.
The 993 Turbos are floating for similar money and Ive had thoughts of more or less swapping into one of those -- for similar reasons -- its a monumental leap in livability and reliability yet better performance and fully depreciated so similar long-term upside. Whats holding me back is 15yrs of ownership in the 930 so we've gotten close to one another. And Im really not interested in anything different than what I already have unless its a PTS car and those are hard to find in 993TT's and bring a premium.
When the fricking snow melts and I pull my 930 out of the garage and go for a drive for the first time in 5 and a half months, disregard everything I just said.
That last line was a classic! And yes, i want modern 930 Turbo looking car. I want to drive it.
02-19-2018, 10:04 PM
#148
Rennlist Member
In other words, a new and elemental coupe that follows the logic the 911 has for decades. If a version had to be kicked Audi's or VW's way to make the $$ work, I could live with that. The platform purity ship sailed with the first Cayenne, and has rounded the equator with the Macan.
I miss cars like the 500E/E500. Subtle. Expensive. Dope. Only those in the know knew you weren't driving a 300E 2.6—and it was cooler that way.
02-19-2018, 10:26 PM
#149
Race Director
Some of these comments about the 930 Turbo are classics.
Honestly, I think you're better off with a 997tt. Your wife is gonna hate the 930. It's hot, noisy, and did I mention the AC sucks. Reliable is a relative term with a 930, they will need constant maintenance and you need to be handy for the not too uncommon breakdown. Stop and go traffic in 100 degrees is a once in a lifetime experience in a 930......not in a good way. Not a car for a long trip, especially with your wife. Speed wise, a new civic will clean its plow. They are fun cars that need a lot of tlc, go in eyes wide open. As muss mentioned , I think a 997tt manual might be the ticket.
I want a modern car that looks like a 930 Turbo, Mooty!
Honestly, I think you're better off with a 997tt. Your wife is gonna hate the 930. It's hot, noisy, and did I mention the AC sucks. Reliable is a relative term with a 930, they will need constant maintenance and you need to be handy for the not too uncommon breakdown. Stop and go traffic in 100 degrees is a once in a lifetime experience in a 930......not in a good way. Not a car for a long trip, especially with your wife. Speed wise, a new civic will clean its plow. They are fun cars that need a lot of tlc, go in eyes wide open. As muss mentioned , I think a 997tt manual might be the ticket.
I want a modern car that looks like a 930 Turbo, Mooty!
02-19-2018, 10:26 PM
#150
Rennlist Member
Loved my 964RSA and 500E.
It's where the sweet spot sits for me.
No I have the 450SEL 6.9. It's special but you can't beat on a 40 year old car like you can on a 20 year old car.
Then there is the case of never drive your hero. A 930 would be a good permanent resident of the new house, never to be started again. Just my expensive bedroom poster...
I love Singer and Mechatronik Mercedes.
I'll take my modern V8 in a Mercedes W111 body please.
We need cars to drive with Camry performance and quality that look like the cool cars from yesteryears.
It's where the sweet spot sits for me.
No I have the 450SEL 6.9. It's special but you can't beat on a 40 year old car like you can on a 20 year old car.
Then there is the case of never drive your hero. A 930 would be a good permanent resident of the new house, never to be started again. Just my expensive bedroom poster...
I love Singer and Mechatronik Mercedes.
I'll take my modern V8 in a Mercedes W111 body please.
We need cars to drive with Camry performance and quality that look like the cool cars from yesteryears.