EVO on 991.2 GT3 vs 991 GT3 RS
05-30-2017, 02:54 AM
#61
I'd watch Mooty's YouTube channel. All you need are a couple a GoPros and a gratuitous model riding shotgun to add some spice to a growing-tired formula.
05-30-2017, 08:28 AM
#63
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Evo publishes review of GT3 with manual. Their reputation here will not improve. I especially like the picture reference I left in. It's a pic of someone driving the 1,000,000th Carrera! 
2017 Porsche 911 GT3 manual review - three pedals good, two pedals bad?
ADAM TOWLER30 MAY 2017
VERDICT:
A two-pedal GT3 is brilliant, but three pedals are even better - on the road, that is
EVO RATING:
PRICE:
£111,802
FOR
Furiously fantastic engine, all-round excellence
AGAINST
Can you actually buy one?
This is our first chance to drive a Gen2 991 Porsche 911 GT3 with a manual gearbox in the UK. You will recall, that the first generation 991 GT3 was a twin-clutch PDK-only sort of machine, much to the consternation of the more traditionally-minded driving enthusiast. That turned out to be more than just keyboard warriors having their say, because Porsche was surprised by the success of the manual-only Cayman GT4, and vindicated in their change of heart by the fever surrounding the manual-only 911 R. This new three-pedals-and-a-stick GT3 is a direct result of that experience.
Engine, transmission and 0-60 time
You may well have already read about this engine. It is quite simply spectacular. It’s the - so far - ultimate incarnation of the new-era flat six, now displacing 4-litres for the first time in the ‘standard’ GT3, but with the ability to rev out to the full and outrageously theatrical 9,000rpm previously only the domain of the smaller 3.8-litre engine. The previous-gen 4-litre lump in the GT3 RS and 911R hit the limiter at 8,800, and without quite the same crescendo. This has been achieved by further strengthening and lightening of the engine’s internals, with a new crankshaft, larger bearings, and reduced internal friction. It produces 493bhp and 339lb-ft of torque, and is probably about as close you can get to a racing engine on the road.
Although related to the seven-speed ‘box in the standard Carrera range, this is the GT department’s take on what a manual ‘box should be like. Originally developed during the development program for the gen1 GT3, but sidelined in favour of PDK, it was resurrected for the 911 R project and the business case for that car meant it now sits on the shelf, ready to be offered as an alternative in the regular range. It’s been further refined over the one in the R, and shuns the standard box’s seventh gear - complete with its awkward extra plane - for a traditionally laid out six ratios. If you opt for a manual you must make do with a mechanical limited slip differential, not the electronically controlled torque vectoring type fitted to PDK-equipped cars.
Choosing three pedals mean that, predictably, you’re going to suffer against the stop watch. Compared to a PDK GT3 the manual car is half a second slower to 62mph, but really, since when was 3.9 seconds to sixty inadequate? In any case, the manual driver can always point to top speed: it’s 1mph faster than a PDK GT3 at 198mph.
The highlight of the GT3 is the new engine, but what it makes it special, as ever, is the quality of the overall package. This isn’t an all-new car, it’s a GT3 version of the latest gen2 991, so the changes over the previous model are in the detail but profound nonetheless. The car also benefits from upgrades to the generic 911 range, such as the latest PCM infotainment system
A new aero package, with a higher rear wing, produces 20% more downforce (without any increase in drag), and also differentiates the car visually from the gen1 model. The steering and chassis have been retuned, with the latest generation of ‘PASM’ variable rate dampers employed, as ever, with their traditional two maps: the softer setting for the road and the ‘Ring, the firmer for smoother racing circuits. There are now also small auxiliary springs on the rear axle to improve traction.
The manual-equipped car is actually 17kg lighter than its PDK equivalent, weighing in at 1,413kg.
What’s it like to drive?
What a car this is. Even though it retains a dual mass flywheel and therefore doesn’t clatter at idle like an RS model, it’s still a deeply visceral experience from the moment the key is twisted in the ignition. The engine utterly dominates proceedings, but it’s also the way in which the driver sits so low in the car, embraced by the superb - if optional and expensive - bucket seats, peering over the dash top even if you’re six-foot plus in stature, sensing what the car is doing through the controls.
It rides firmly but never abruptly, with fabulous poise, and the revised steering is about as good as electrically assisted racks get: although not as transparent as an early GT3’s, it’s probably fair to say it tells you everything you need to know. Grip levels are extraordinary high from the latest Michelin Cup 2 tyres, although introduce some damp roads to the experience and it’s clear this isn’t a car to suffer fools lightly.
Image 6 of 9Porsche 911 GT3 manual - Adam driving
This new engine essentially offers two performance bands. Between 3,500 and 6,000rpm it is really, really fast, filling the cabin with a wall of rich flat six noise. It is possible to drive around in this rev band and be utterly convinced that there’s nothing quicker on the road, right up until the moment you resolve to keep the throttle pedal planted, whereupon it simply erupts, sending a tingling resonance up your spine at 6,500rpm and wailing dementedly with the sweetest, hardest-edged note imaginable. That takes you to 8,000rpm. The last 1,000rpm is just madness.
It’s a deeply immersive experience, and that’s why the manual gearbox suits it so well. The shift quality is much less demanding than the stiff, weighty mechanism in the Mezger engine era, but it’s still very precise and tactile. As with all those 996 and 997 GT3s, sometimes it’s just nice to drop the windows and take it easier, revelling in the sound of the engine, executing a neat downchange, enjoying the sensations of being in a really special and engaging car. In many ways it’s those moments that stick in the mind as much as the pin-your-ears-back-rapid ones. If I were predominantly using my GT3 for trackdays, I’d go PDK; but for a car mainly used on the road, I’d opt for the manual.
Price and rivals
Go to any high-end track day across the world and they’ll usually be a plethora of GT3s in the pitlane, and with good reason. A Lamborghini Huracan Performante may trounce it at the ‘Ring, but remember it’s around £100,000 more expensive; Nissan’s GT-R Nismo, by comparison, is £150,875. But affording the GT3’s £111,802 may not be the biggest hurdle in buying one: despite the new car not being a ‘limited edition’, anecdotal evidence suggests you’ll need to be a good customer of your local Porsche Centre to stand a chance of owning one.
Facebook Post
2017 Porsche 911 GT3 manual review - three pedals good, two pedals bad?
ADAM TOWLER30 MAY 2017
VERDICT:
A two-pedal GT3 is brilliant, but three pedals are even better - on the road, that is
EVO RATING:
PRICE:
£111,802
FOR
Furiously fantastic engine, all-round excellence
AGAINST
Can you actually buy one?
This is our first chance to drive a Gen2 991 Porsche 911 GT3 with a manual gearbox in the UK. You will recall, that the first generation 991 GT3 was a twin-clutch PDK-only sort of machine, much to the consternation of the more traditionally-minded driving enthusiast. That turned out to be more than just keyboard warriors having their say, because Porsche was surprised by the success of the manual-only Cayman GT4, and vindicated in their change of heart by the fever surrounding the manual-only 911 R. This new three-pedals-and-a-stick GT3 is a direct result of that experience.
Engine, transmission and 0-60 time
You may well have already read about this engine. It is quite simply spectacular. It’s the - so far - ultimate incarnation of the new-era flat six, now displacing 4-litres for the first time in the ‘standard’ GT3, but with the ability to rev out to the full and outrageously theatrical 9,000rpm previously only the domain of the smaller 3.8-litre engine. The previous-gen 4-litre lump in the GT3 RS and 911R hit the limiter at 8,800, and without quite the same crescendo. This has been achieved by further strengthening and lightening of the engine’s internals, with a new crankshaft, larger bearings, and reduced internal friction. It produces 493bhp and 339lb-ft of torque, and is probably about as close you can get to a racing engine on the road.
Although related to the seven-speed ‘box in the standard Carrera range, this is the GT department’s take on what a manual ‘box should be like. Originally developed during the development program for the gen1 GT3, but sidelined in favour of PDK, it was resurrected for the 911 R project and the business case for that car meant it now sits on the shelf, ready to be offered as an alternative in the regular range. It’s been further refined over the one in the R, and shuns the standard box’s seventh gear - complete with its awkward extra plane - for a traditionally laid out six ratios. If you opt for a manual you must make do with a mechanical limited slip differential, not the electronically controlled torque vectoring type fitted to PDK-equipped cars.
Choosing three pedals mean that, predictably, you’re going to suffer against the stop watch. Compared to a PDK GT3 the manual car is half a second slower to 62mph, but really, since when was 3.9 seconds to sixty inadequate? In any case, the manual driver can always point to top speed: it’s 1mph faster than a PDK GT3 at 198mph.
The highlight of the GT3 is the new engine, but what it makes it special, as ever, is the quality of the overall package. This isn’t an all-new car, it’s a GT3 version of the latest gen2 991, so the changes over the previous model are in the detail but profound nonetheless. The car also benefits from upgrades to the generic 911 range, such as the latest PCM infotainment system
A new aero package, with a higher rear wing, produces 20% more downforce (without any increase in drag), and also differentiates the car visually from the gen1 model. The steering and chassis have been retuned, with the latest generation of ‘PASM’ variable rate dampers employed, as ever, with their traditional two maps: the softer setting for the road and the ‘Ring, the firmer for smoother racing circuits. There are now also small auxiliary springs on the rear axle to improve traction.
The manual-equipped car is actually 17kg lighter than its PDK equivalent, weighing in at 1,413kg.
What’s it like to drive?
What a car this is. Even though it retains a dual mass flywheel and therefore doesn’t clatter at idle like an RS model, it’s still a deeply visceral experience from the moment the key is twisted in the ignition. The engine utterly dominates proceedings, but it’s also the way in which the driver sits so low in the car, embraced by the superb - if optional and expensive - bucket seats, peering over the dash top even if you’re six-foot plus in stature, sensing what the car is doing through the controls.
It rides firmly but never abruptly, with fabulous poise, and the revised steering is about as good as electrically assisted racks get: although not as transparent as an early GT3’s, it’s probably fair to say it tells you everything you need to know. Grip levels are extraordinary high from the latest Michelin Cup 2 tyres, although introduce some damp roads to the experience and it’s clear this isn’t a car to suffer fools lightly.
Image 6 of 9Porsche 911 GT3 manual - Adam driving
This new engine essentially offers two performance bands. Between 3,500 and 6,000rpm it is really, really fast, filling the cabin with a wall of rich flat six noise. It is possible to drive around in this rev band and be utterly convinced that there’s nothing quicker on the road, right up until the moment you resolve to keep the throttle pedal planted, whereupon it simply erupts, sending a tingling resonance up your spine at 6,500rpm and wailing dementedly with the sweetest, hardest-edged note imaginable. That takes you to 8,000rpm. The last 1,000rpm is just madness.
It’s a deeply immersive experience, and that’s why the manual gearbox suits it so well. The shift quality is much less demanding than the stiff, weighty mechanism in the Mezger engine era, but it’s still very precise and tactile. As with all those 996 and 997 GT3s, sometimes it’s just nice to drop the windows and take it easier, revelling in the sound of the engine, executing a neat downchange, enjoying the sensations of being in a really special and engaging car. In many ways it’s those moments that stick in the mind as much as the pin-your-ears-back-rapid ones. If I were predominantly using my GT3 for trackdays, I’d go PDK; but for a car mainly used on the road, I’d opt for the manual.
Price and rivals
Go to any high-end track day across the world and they’ll usually be a plethora of GT3s in the pitlane, and with good reason. A Lamborghini Huracan Performante may trounce it at the ‘Ring, but remember it’s around £100,000 more expensive; Nissan’s GT-R Nismo, by comparison, is £150,875. But affording the GT3’s £111,802 may not be the biggest hurdle in buying one: despite the new car not being a ‘limited edition’, anecdotal evidence suggests you’ll need to be a good customer of your local Porsche Centre to stand a chance of owning one.
05-30-2017, 09:22 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
20 years ago I used to have a few motor magazines home delivered. I don't any more. Unfortunately and sad to say, but Ive gotten used to the fast food internet reviews... quick, easy and cheap. No substance and really nothing to contemplate and consider.
The evo review (and others) is simply another sample of junk food being served up laced with contentious commentary to use as click bait. Those that have any substance and skip the contentious rubbish or just plain rubbish don't get the clicks... no clicks and no first review invites. Hopefully the substance comes soon when the ones down the line can get hold of a vehicle.
This guy comes to mind... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3V...9deEmBx9VxQJLQ
The evo review (and others) is simply another sample of junk food being served up laced with contentious commentary to use as click bait. Those that have any substance and skip the contentious rubbish or just plain rubbish don't get the clicks... no clicks and no first review invites. Hopefully the substance comes soon when the ones down the line can get hold of a vehicle.
This guy comes to mind... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3V...9deEmBx9VxQJLQ
05-30-2017, 09:56 AM
#65
Drifting
05-30-2017, 08:18 PM
#66
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
20 years ago I used to have a few motor magazines home delivered. I don't any more. Unfortunately and sad to say, but Ive gotten used to the fast food internet reviews... quick, easy and cheap. No substance and really nothing to contemplate and consider.
The evo review (and others) is simply another sample of junk food being served up laced with contentious commentary to use as click bait. Those that have any substance and skip the contentious rubbish or just plain rubbish don't get the clicks... no clicks and no first review invites. Hopefully the substance comes soon when the ones down the line can get hold of a vehicle.
This guy comes to mind... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3V...9deEmBx9VxQJLQ
The evo review (and others) is simply another sample of junk food being served up laced with contentious commentary to use as click bait. Those that have any substance and skip the contentious rubbish or just plain rubbish don't get the clicks... no clicks and no first review invites. Hopefully the substance comes soon when the ones down the line can get hold of a vehicle.
This guy comes to mind... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3V...9deEmBx9VxQJLQ
Now, any stooge can video a review, upload it on YouTube in a few hours. So now manufacturers have embargoes, and everyone dumps their "review" at the same time. In order to get this done as much of ahead of time as possible, the "review" usually consists of 80% regurgitation of the press pack. Notice in the "review" above it discusses stats and facts which have already been published as nauseum. The "what's it like to drive" section is so hastily written, it seems as if the content could have been written based on forum rumors, leaks and pre-conceptions. No one car write worth a damn any more.
There are a few exceptions, but not many.
05-30-2017, 08:51 PM
#67
I'm hard pressed to comprehend how a 4.0L 500hp engine can feel so drastically different than a 4.0L 500hp engine.
I can say that the 6 speed and LWFW is a different experience than a 7 spd PDK but is a dual mass flywheel and a 6 spd going to be magical?
Will it feel like a freight train hitting a mountain?
When I shift up from 3-4 in the cup car I don't feel unicorn farts or dragon spunk shooting out the back. It feels like I am going really fast and I am going faster.
As some of you guys know, these cars accelerate less and less the faster you go. So when I read about some magical engine that takes you to light speed with 330 lb/ft it is hard to avoid the LOL. Let's reserve that for a turbo/GT2 type of car that makes 600 lb/ft
I can say that the 6 speed and LWFW is a different experience than a 7 spd PDK but is a dual mass flywheel and a 6 spd going to be magical?
Will it feel like a freight train hitting a mountain?
When I shift up from 3-4 in the cup car I don't feel unicorn farts or dragon spunk shooting out the back. It feels like I am going really fast and I am going faster.
As some of you guys know, these cars accelerate less and less the faster you go. So when I read about some magical engine that takes you to light speed with 330 lb/ft it is hard to avoid the LOL. Let's reserve that for a turbo/GT2 type of car that makes 600 lb/ft
05-31-2017, 05:43 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Jono809
Did anyone else feel that a 997.2 mezger felt like it had more low-mid range torque? maybe in my head...
05-31-2017, 07:13 PM
#70
05-31-2017, 10:32 PM
#71
There are so many car reviewers out in the market that reviews are like white noise - there is volume not matched by insight.
From my perspective, many of the UK reviewers behave like sheep. The only one I currently like is Steve Sutcliffe - hes a very good driver and delivers a review with a sense of nuance.
Very few of the current reviewers dare to be different and they fall onto the "hype" band wagon e.g. Focus RS and M2 as examples of two cars that are really quite ordinary in most respects (but good at their respective price points).
At the end of the day the GT3 is a fine car, but then again thats no surprise - all iterations have been fantastic.
From my perspective, many of the UK reviewers behave like sheep. The only one I currently like is Steve Sutcliffe - hes a very good driver and delivers a review with a sense of nuance.
Very few of the current reviewers dare to be different and they fall onto the "hype" band wagon e.g. Focus RS and M2 as examples of two cars that are really quite ordinary in most respects (but good at their respective price points).
At the end of the day the GT3 is a fine car, but then again thats no surprise - all iterations have been fantastic.
05-31-2017, 11:49 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
I don't know what people expect out of car reviewers. The GT2 is seemingly an amazing car based on the reviews, but it's not like the .2 is made of alien technology and runs on angels' tears... It's a 911 GT3 that's an enhancement based on the same team's previous best efforts.
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
06-01-2017, 03:20 AM
#73
Race Director
Originally Posted by IrishAndy
I don't know what people expect out of car reviewers. The GT2 is seemingly an amazing car based on the reviews, but it's not like the .2 is made of alien technology and runs on angels' tears... It's a 911 GT3 that's an enhancement based on the same team's previous best efforts.
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
I think your post explains it perfectly. The need to rise above the crowd of reviewers in order to attract viewership, leads to extremes, both in opinions, superlatives and testing parameters (i.e. Drifting videos). This is similar to news media where the weather channel person needs to provide "breaking news" to describe a small rain shower which might pass...
06-01-2017, 09:16 AM
#74
Burning Brakes
I don't know what people expect out of car reviewers. The GT2 is seemingly an amazing car based on the reviews, but it's not like the .2 is made of alien technology and runs on angels' tears... It's a 911 GT3 that's an enhancement based on the same team's previous best efforts.
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
Just like restaurant reviewers, you pick the one (if there is one) that seems to match what you like based on their previous reviews and you go from there. I've never heard a car reviewer that can tell me exactly what a car is like... I don't expect a restaurant reviewer to explain to me exactly what eggs benedict tastes like at a certain restaurant. I ultimately have to try it out myself.
Have they gotten worse? Well, I had a 2009 BMW 328i and not a single review adequately explained how slow and irrational the auto gearbox was. My wife had a TSX and none of the reviews told me the sound insulation was so bad that it would be like driving around with the passenger window open the whole time in a competitor's sedan. They sure as hell told me what the on-the-limit handling was like though because, you know, it sells.
The biggest problem is that many readers expect constant superlatives and polarizing extremes of opinion and the car mags have to deliver or they suffer with their readership. Someone on this board even commented that Chris Harris - for all his glowing praise - mustn't have loved the .2 as much as come previous cars because his face seemed less elated than in some other videos. So, if he finds another car that's even better in the future do we expect him to literally explode?
But will agree with you that unfortunately they are only responding to the demands of the medium (internet, fast and accessible info bites) and what we ourselves are clicking on and giving credence too.
The saying in politics, we get the politician we deserve, perhaps we are getting the review(er)s we deserve.
01-10-2018, 01:45 PM
#75
more real-life experiences yet?
Data say 991.1 RS is more special over 6.000 UpM still.
Data say 991.1 RS is more special over 6.000 UpM still.