991 GT3 Concerned Owners Group
05-11-2017, 03:36 PM
#226
Race Director
Thread Starter
05-11-2017, 05:30 PM
#227
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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I wanted to give you guys an update. I have spoken with quite a few people, and had numerous email and PM exchanges. I have also had some very productive and informative discussions with people more knowledge of this engine problem than myself. I figured I would give you some insight into my thinking.
First, I do not think all engines are susceptible to this problem. It really comes down to the tolerances that your specific engine was built with. The problem with the finger followers is that a thin film of oil may or may not have enough room to form. In some cases, such as in OrthoJoe's case, there is most likely enough room between the finger followers and the cams to get sufficient oiling. This is just a guess, but that would explain why some people have engine problems after little usage, and others don't after heavy usage.
And this brings me to the next point. How do you know if your engine is wearing like Joe's or not? There is really only one way to find out. You need to drop your engine and have a look. Only then will you know what is really going on.
Let's say you have a qualified shop drop your engine, and pop the valve covers. At this point you see that you have pretty minimal/almost no wear. My recommendation would be one of two options:
1. Run Mobil 1 5w-50 (or A40 approved) , do frequent oil changes (say after 3,000 miles) and don't think about this again.
2. Run race headers without cats, and use an oil high in Zinc/Phosphorus. Something from AMSOil or Motul.
As far as number 2 is concerned, high zinc/phosphorus oils are not good for cats, but they are good for engines otherwise. Better oil can mitigate this, especially if you already have minimal/no wear.
If you pop those covers and see a little wear, I would take lots of pictures and then push Porsche for a top end fix right now, before the CEL comes on. Waiting until the CEL will most likely have already caused a lot of internal damage. Not guaranteed, but likely IMO.
If you pop the covers and see significant wear, you need to push like crazy for a new engine. That metal went somewhere. New heads/finger followers/cams aren't going to fix that, and that damage might not expose itself until after your warranty expires. Getting Porsche to replace your engine now is critical.
One last point. If I do get a new G engine at some point (or new top end), the first thing I am going to do is put race headers on, and run high zinc/phosphorus oil. That, combined with the new head design and DLC cams, should make the car reliable for many, many years.
In summary, you have NO IDEA what is going on under those valve covers. You may be thinking about this topic a lot, and there might be zero wear going on. The only way you are going to know for sure is to have a qualified shop drop your engine and take a look. Then, and only then will you have the knowledge you need to plan your next steps. It could also help you with resale, to document no issues, or just for peace of mind. You could be worrying over nothing, or you could be damaging your engine right now.
One final comment on Dundon. There is also a good chance that Jamie and Charles will come up with a great fix at some point. Someone else might as well. But my strategy is not about waiting for anything to happen. I want to know what is happening now, and then act accordingly. I am not a fan of waiting around for anything.
Personally, I am going to take my car in and have the engine dropped within the next month or so. I will post pictures, and I plan on sharing this information with Porsche, if and when our meeting is held. If enough of us do this, the data we do discover may help motivate Porsche for a fix, or demonstrate that the problem is really not as bad as advertised.
Rob
First, I do not think all engines are susceptible to this problem. It really comes down to the tolerances that your specific engine was built with. The problem with the finger followers is that a thin film of oil may or may not have enough room to form. In some cases, such as in OrthoJoe's case, there is most likely enough room between the finger followers and the cams to get sufficient oiling. This is just a guess, but that would explain why some people have engine problems after little usage, and others don't after heavy usage.
And this brings me to the next point. How do you know if your engine is wearing like Joe's or not? There is really only one way to find out. You need to drop your engine and have a look. Only then will you know what is really going on.
Let's say you have a qualified shop drop your engine, and pop the valve covers. At this point you see that you have pretty minimal/almost no wear. My recommendation would be one of two options:
1. Run Mobil 1 5w-50 (or A40 approved) , do frequent oil changes (say after 3,000 miles) and don't think about this again.
2. Run race headers without cats, and use an oil high in Zinc/Phosphorus. Something from AMSOil or Motul.
As far as number 2 is concerned, high zinc/phosphorus oils are not good for cats, but they are good for engines otherwise. Better oil can mitigate this, especially if you already have minimal/no wear.
If you pop those covers and see a little wear, I would take lots of pictures and then push Porsche for a top end fix right now, before the CEL comes on. Waiting until the CEL will most likely have already caused a lot of internal damage. Not guaranteed, but likely IMO.
If you pop the covers and see significant wear, you need to push like crazy for a new engine. That metal went somewhere. New heads/finger followers/cams aren't going to fix that, and that damage might not expose itself until after your warranty expires. Getting Porsche to replace your engine now is critical.
One last point. If I do get a new G engine at some point (or new top end), the first thing I am going to do is put race headers on, and run high zinc/phosphorus oil. That, combined with the new head design and DLC cams, should make the car reliable for many, many years.
In summary, you have NO IDEA what is going on under those valve covers. You may be thinking about this topic a lot, and there might be zero wear going on. The only way you are going to know for sure is to have a qualified shop drop your engine and take a look. Then, and only then will you have the knowledge you need to plan your next steps. It could also help you with resale, to document no issues, or just for peace of mind. You could be worrying over nothing, or you could be damaging your engine right now.
One final comment on Dundon. There is also a good chance that Jamie and Charles will come up with a great fix at some point. Someone else might as well. But my strategy is not about waiting for anything to happen. I want to know what is happening now, and then act accordingly. I am not a fan of waiting around for anything.
Personally, I am going to take my car in and have the engine dropped within the next month or so. I will post pictures, and I plan on sharing this information with Porsche, if and when our meeting is held. If enough of us do this, the data we do discover may help motivate Porsche for a fix, or demonstrate that the problem is really not as bad as advertised.
Rob
instead taking pictures of the panorama or congrat with this or that member
you should read more this forum
and if you don t undersrand don t be shy
just ask, somebody here will help you
05-11-2017, 06:48 PM
#228
Race Director
Thread Starter
Rob all you are finally writing was well discussed and known since long time on Rennlist
instead taking pictures of the panorama or congrat with this or that member
you should read more this forum
and if you don t undersrand don t be shy
just ask, somebody here will help you
instead taking pictures of the panorama or congrat with this or that member
you should read more this forum
and if you don t undersrand don t be shy
just ask, somebody here will help you
05-11-2017, 07:02 PM
#229
Nordschleife Master
Rob, ignore him. What you've done so far is very much appreciated by all (well, doesn't look like all, only one doesn't seem appreciative). I applaud you, and very much looking forward to what you find after you drop your engine. Well done.
05-11-2017, 08:18 PM
#230
Race Director
Thread Starter
I appreciate that Bronson. I think cracking the covers will give myself and the community more info, and I don't see the harm in doing it. It isn't like I've decided to give up on a solution. Just another path.
05-11-2017, 10:19 PM
#233
Three Wheelin'
I wanted to give you guys an update. I have spoken with quite a few people, and had numerous email and PM exchanges. I have also had some very productive and informative discussions with people more knowledge of this engine problem than myself. I figured I would give you some insight into my thinking.
First, I do not think all engines are susceptible to this problem. It really comes down to the tolerances that your specific engine was built with. The problem with the finger followers is that a thin film of oil may or may not have enough room to form. In some cases, such as in OrthoJoe's case, there is most likely enough room between the finger followers and the cams to get sufficient oiling. This is just a guess, but that would explain why some people have engine problems after little usage, and others don't after heavy usage.
And this brings me to the next point. How do you know if your engine is wearing like Joe's or not? There is really only one way to find out. You need to drop your engine and have a look. Only then will you know what is really going on.
Let's say you have a qualified shop drop your engine, and pop the valve covers. At this point you see that you have pretty minimal/almost no wear. My recommendation would be one of two options:
1. Run Mobil 1 5w-50 (or A40 approved) , do frequent oil changes (say after 3,000 miles) and don't think about this again.
2. Run race headers without cats, and use an oil high in Zinc/Phosphorus. Something from AMSOil or Motul.
As far as number 2 is concerned, high zinc/phosphorus oils are not good for cats, but they are good for engines otherwise. Better oil can mitigate this, especially if you already have minimal/no wear.
If you pop those covers and see a little wear, I would take lots of pictures and then push Porsche for a top end fix right now, before the CEL comes on. Waiting until the CEL will most likely have already caused a lot of internal damage. Not guaranteed, but likely IMO.
If you pop the covers and see significant wear, you need to push like crazy for a new engine. That metal went somewhere. New heads/finger followers/cams aren't going to fix that, and that damage might not expose itself until after your warranty expires. Getting Porsche to replace your engine now is critical.
One last point. If I do get a new G engine at some point (or new top end), the first thing I am going to do is put race headers on, and run high zinc/phosphorus oil. That, combined with the new head design and DLC cams, should make the car reliable for many, many years.
In summary, you have NO IDEA what is going on under those valve covers. You may be thinking about this topic a lot, and there might be zero wear going on. The only way you are going to know for sure is to have a qualified shop drop your engine and take a look. Then, and only then will you have the knowledge you need to plan your next steps. It could also help you with resale, to document no issues, or just for peace of mind. You could be worrying over nothing, or you could be damaging your engine right now.
One final comment on Dundon. There is also a good chance that Jamie and Charles will come up with a great fix at some point. Someone else might as well. But my strategy is not about waiting for anything to happen. I want to know what is happening now, and then act accordingly. I am not a fan of waiting around for anything.
Personally, I am going to take my car in and have the engine dropped within the next month or so. I will post pictures, and I plan on sharing this information with Porsche, if and when our meeting is held. If enough of us do this, the data we do discover may help motivate Porsche for a fix, or demonstrate that the problem is really not as bad as advertised.
Rob
First, I do not think all engines are susceptible to this problem. It really comes down to the tolerances that your specific engine was built with. The problem with the finger followers is that a thin film of oil may or may not have enough room to form. In some cases, such as in OrthoJoe's case, there is most likely enough room between the finger followers and the cams to get sufficient oiling. This is just a guess, but that would explain why some people have engine problems after little usage, and others don't after heavy usage.
And this brings me to the next point. How do you know if your engine is wearing like Joe's or not? There is really only one way to find out. You need to drop your engine and have a look. Only then will you know what is really going on.
Let's say you have a qualified shop drop your engine, and pop the valve covers. At this point you see that you have pretty minimal/almost no wear. My recommendation would be one of two options:
1. Run Mobil 1 5w-50 (or A40 approved) , do frequent oil changes (say after 3,000 miles) and don't think about this again.
2. Run race headers without cats, and use an oil high in Zinc/Phosphorus. Something from AMSOil or Motul.
As far as number 2 is concerned, high zinc/phosphorus oils are not good for cats, but they are good for engines otherwise. Better oil can mitigate this, especially if you already have minimal/no wear.
If you pop those covers and see a little wear, I would take lots of pictures and then push Porsche for a top end fix right now, before the CEL comes on. Waiting until the CEL will most likely have already caused a lot of internal damage. Not guaranteed, but likely IMO.
If you pop the covers and see significant wear, you need to push like crazy for a new engine. That metal went somewhere. New heads/finger followers/cams aren't going to fix that, and that damage might not expose itself until after your warranty expires. Getting Porsche to replace your engine now is critical.
One last point. If I do get a new G engine at some point (or new top end), the first thing I am going to do is put race headers on, and run high zinc/phosphorus oil. That, combined with the new head design and DLC cams, should make the car reliable for many, many years.
In summary, you have NO IDEA what is going on under those valve covers. You may be thinking about this topic a lot, and there might be zero wear going on. The only way you are going to know for sure is to have a qualified shop drop your engine and take a look. Then, and only then will you have the knowledge you need to plan your next steps. It could also help you with resale, to document no issues, or just for peace of mind. You could be worrying over nothing, or you could be damaging your engine right now.
One final comment on Dundon. There is also a good chance that Jamie and Charles will come up with a great fix at some point. Someone else might as well. But my strategy is not about waiting for anything to happen. I want to know what is happening now, and then act accordingly. I am not a fan of waiting around for anything.
Personally, I am going to take my car in and have the engine dropped within the next month or so. I will post pictures, and I plan on sharing this information with Porsche, if and when our meeting is held. If enough of us do this, the data we do discover may help motivate Porsche for a fix, or demonstrate that the problem is really not as bad as advertised.
Rob
not very encouraging
05-11-2017, 11:51 PM
#234
So all this group action was to write at the end don't worry about your engines? Not all of them have issues?
With some technical brain farts between the lines?
Drop my engine and have a look at the heads?
It's a joke. Either way good luck with the outcome.
With some technical brain farts between the lines?
Drop my engine and have a look at the heads?
It's a joke. Either way good luck with the outcome.
05-12-2017, 03:54 AM
#235
Pro
Thank you Rob
05-12-2017, 12:03 PM
#236
Race Director
Thread Starter
I think some people are interpreting my last post to mean somehow I am throwing in the towel, which obviously isn't the case. Sending the letter to Porsche was the first step in a multi-step process. We need to be thinking about our next moves, and how Porsche will likely respond to those moves.
But there is another side to this. We all assume that our engines are ticking time-bombs, and given enough miles they will all exhibit this problem. Do we really know that to be true? Sure, we are concerned. But we have 35 to 40 examples of this problem. I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet.
For example, what if 10 of us did an engine inspection, and zero or only one showed any wear? Wouldn't that finding likely change the entire conversation around our cars? I think it would.
On the same token, what if the same inspections showed 7 or 8 with mild to high wear? Wouldn't that finding give us much more leverage in talks with Porsche (or in anything else that comes later)? Of course it would.
Going to Porsche and telling them our engines were designed wrong may or may not even be accurate. Popping the covers on our engines may bring some clarity, and it may impact the moves we make (individually, and as a group) in the future.
BTW, everyone should have their letters by early next week.
But there is another side to this. We all assume that our engines are ticking time-bombs, and given enough miles they will all exhibit this problem. Do we really know that to be true? Sure, we are concerned. But we have 35 to 40 examples of this problem. I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet.
For example, what if 10 of us did an engine inspection, and zero or only one showed any wear? Wouldn't that finding likely change the entire conversation around our cars? I think it would.
On the same token, what if the same inspections showed 7 or 8 with mild to high wear? Wouldn't that finding give us much more leverage in talks with Porsche (or in anything else that comes later)? Of course it would.
Going to Porsche and telling them our engines were designed wrong may or may not even be accurate. Popping the covers on our engines may bring some clarity, and it may impact the moves we make (individually, and as a group) in the future.
BTW, everyone should have their letters by early next week.
05-12-2017, 12:10 PM
#237
Rennlist Member
Rob, a word of advice. Let Porsche decide what if anything needs to be done. It is not helpful to your case publically speculating on the course of action for the owners. You've accomplished your goal putting Porsche on notice. The ball now is in their court.
05-12-2017, 01:21 PM
#238
Race Director
Thread Starter
The ball is definitely in their court, Nick. Thanks for the advice.
05-12-2017, 01:23 PM
#239
Burning Brakes
05-12-2017, 04:44 PM
#240
Race Director
Thread Starter