OT: LT Spider #908, and 911R thread
12-25-2016, 01:13 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
The only Porsches that do not severely depreciate( with the exception of the GT3) are the models regular humans cannot purchase. And the only Porsches I wish to currently own are the ones that are unavailable and not because they are limited production.
There is simply no excuse for the 911R being a limited production car that only a select few can buy. This is a car that many Porsche enthusiasts have been wishing and waiting for and to be denied ownership is appalling. I had a deposit on one many months before any dealers even had a clue the car was going into production. I was first in line at Pfaff many months before anyone else. I have owned 6 Porsches in the last 8 years either purchased at Pfaff and all serviced there. End of story, no 911R for me.
This experience has alienated me as a future Porsche owner. Sold my 2011 Turbo S Cab and 2016 Boxster S. Now getting my driving thrills from Italy.
There is simply no excuse for the 911R being a limited production car that only a select few can buy. This is a car that many Porsche enthusiasts have been wishing and waiting for and to be denied ownership is appalling. I had a deposit on one many months before any dealers even had a clue the car was going into production. I was first in line at Pfaff many months before anyone else. I have owned 6 Porsches in the last 8 years either purchased at Pfaff and all serviced there. End of story, no 911R for me.
This experience has alienated me as a future Porsche owner. Sold my 2011 Turbo S Cab and 2016 Boxster S. Now getting my driving thrills from Italy.
12-25-2016, 02:42 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thanks to everyone. It's Christmas and Porsche still has not been able to deliver my R under the tree. Ironically, the car is paid for and I even have the license plate for it.
The 675LT is still the best car I have ever driven. The RS 4.0 997, CGT, and 993GT2 are the next best. I am excluding the P1 because you have to pay 2M for one now.
For backstory- the R was originally scheduled for euro delivery 11/7. Then got delayed (after I'd booked my Europe trip) and six weeks later still waiting (air freighted the car, or at least agreed to pay for it)
Mclaren is a fantastic car brand but it is not for everyone...not everyone can fork out 210k for a 570S, 230k for a 570GT or 400-500k for a 675LT. The price itself is the limiting factor and keeps it exclusive.
The main issue that everyone has with mclaren is that they launched the 12C with
1) 50% of the dealers being dicks
2) a certain number of cars needing updates
3) radio issues
4) not enough dealers so each store had too much forced inventory.
Since the 650S came out there have not been the issues or anything remotely resembling a high % of engine and trans failures on GT3 cars. The P1 needed a recall for a frunk latch upgrade. Took 30 mins per car. Some LT coupes needed extra glue for the carpet to solve a resonance NVH issue. Other than that, the cars all just go drive.
They have added dealers but because the volume is low there is realistically an issue opening new stores:
Give it to the local lambo guy?
Competition between other dealers for an open point?
Hope good dealers find a way to service a wider area?
My Scottsdale store covers customers in 6 states and we can sell pretty much anywhere but in the "good mclaren dealer agreement" if I sell a car into someone else's area, I have to send a commission check to that dealer, so I make less profit. Of course, he still has to deal with that guy for service, so it is a little weird but if anyone wants to buy a car from me I can sell it. I'll even help you spec it out.
The 675LT is still the best car I have ever driven. The RS 4.0 997, CGT, and 993GT2 are the next best. I am excluding the P1 because you have to pay 2M for one now.
For backstory- the R was originally scheduled for euro delivery 11/7. Then got delayed (after I'd booked my Europe trip) and six weeks later still waiting (air freighted the car, or at least agreed to pay for it)
Mclaren is a fantastic car brand but it is not for everyone...not everyone can fork out 210k for a 570S, 230k for a 570GT or 400-500k for a 675LT. The price itself is the limiting factor and keeps it exclusive.
The main issue that everyone has with mclaren is that they launched the 12C with
1) 50% of the dealers being dicks
2) a certain number of cars needing updates
3) radio issues
4) not enough dealers so each store had too much forced inventory.
Since the 650S came out there have not been the issues or anything remotely resembling a high % of engine and trans failures on GT3 cars. The P1 needed a recall for a frunk latch upgrade. Took 30 mins per car. Some LT coupes needed extra glue for the carpet to solve a resonance NVH issue. Other than that, the cars all just go drive.
They have added dealers but because the volume is low there is realistically an issue opening new stores:
Give it to the local lambo guy?
Competition between other dealers for an open point?
Hope good dealers find a way to service a wider area?
My Scottsdale store covers customers in 6 states and we can sell pretty much anywhere but in the "good mclaren dealer agreement" if I sell a car into someone else's area, I have to send a commission check to that dealer, so I make less profit. Of course, he still has to deal with that guy for service, so it is a little weird but if anyone wants to buy a car from me I can sell it. I'll even help you spec it out.
In terms of value numbers VS performance numbers you quickly arrive back at a 911TTS when comparing to other high end sports car but value and performance are often not of much relevance for these cars.
I don't see many if any McLarens or AMG's at the track yet so for me RS it is but for anyone who just wants a special car that has the looks and sounds to make ones heart sing, I wouldn't be shopping Porsche any longer.
McLaren 570 would be on top of my list followed my AMG GT R.
Aston Martin will be next with AMG drive lines.
Porsches haughty approach to limited numbers and playing hard to get CXX options will come back to bite them.
Soon we'll be buying Porsches only because the off the floor lease specials and we will buy other brands because of the personalized bespoke option availability sold to you over a red carpet with CJ smiling and helping you protect yourself from questionable taste.
Or indulge it
I'm starting to wonder how a 570GT or AMG GT R, or even a AMG powered Vantage would hold up on track VS a TTS...
All faster or about as fast as an RS for about same price.
Never mind the 911R that to me is just a bespoke GT3 marketing smoke and mirror exercise.
Someone needs to get kicked in the nuts for that car not sitting under your tree right now.
12-25-2016, 04:30 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Porsche as a company and their dealers are increasing complacent about satisfying existing customers and attracting new ones. I advised my dealer Pfaff that since I have been a loyal customer for many years and put my deposit down on the 911R months before anyone else, if I did not get an allocation I would never buy another car from them. After numerous phone calls and emails to the General Manager inquiring about the status of the allocation, I eventually received a 2 line email stating that " We regret to inform you ..."
I then called Porsche Canada to apprise them of my experience and I clearly stated that they have lost me as a customer if they do not do something for me. Two days later I received a phone call, by a secretary, reading a message that stated, " Thank you for your message. Sorry you did not receive the car you requested but do not hesitate to contact your dealer in the future for any other Porsche models that are of interest".
The practise of offering the most interesting and exciting models to only a select few customers has completely turned me off of the brand. The fact that it has not done the same to many other Porsche owners is surprising. Yes a 991 Turbo is in many respects superior to a 997 and a 911 991 is an improvement over a 997.2. but they are essentially variations of the same theme. After owning those models , I am seeking a more exciting alternative, i.e. GT3 RS, 911R etc. And going forward, Porsche will introduce other new models but the most thrilling examples will be unattainable.
I then called Porsche Canada to apprise them of my experience and I clearly stated that they have lost me as a customer if they do not do something for me. Two days later I received a phone call, by a secretary, reading a message that stated, " Thank you for your message. Sorry you did not receive the car you requested but do not hesitate to contact your dealer in the future for any other Porsche models that are of interest".
The practise of offering the most interesting and exciting models to only a select few customers has completely turned me off of the brand. The fact that it has not done the same to many other Porsche owners is surprising. Yes a 991 Turbo is in many respects superior to a 997 and a 911 991 is an improvement over a 997.2. but they are essentially variations of the same theme. After owning those models , I am seeking a more exciting alternative, i.e. GT3 RS, 911R etc. And going forward, Porsche will introduce other new models but the most thrilling examples will be unattainable.
12-25-2016, 04:47 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
BTW-I have no problem with Porsche or any other car maker offering 7 figure price models on an exclusive basis. I have no interest in those. But any model that sells for normal Porsche prices should be available to anyone wishing to buy one and especially to loyal customers. Other than rewarding 918 buyers and creating exhorbitant profits for those few who got a 911R, what purpose is served by not manufacturing and selling as many as demand requires?
12-25-2016, 07:56 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
Porsche needs to start looking over their shoulder.
In terms of value numbers VS performance numbers you quickly arrive back at a 911TTS when comparing to other high end sports car but value and performance are often not of much relevance for these cars.
I don't see many if any McLarens or AMG's at the track yet so for me RS it is but for anyone who just wants a special car that has the looks and sounds to make ones heart sing, I wouldn't be shopping Porsche any longer.
McLaren 570 would be on top of my list followed my AMG GT R.
Aston Martin will be next with AMG drive lines.
Porsches haughty approach to limited numbers and playing hard to get CXX options will come back to bite them.
Soon we'll be buying Porsches only because the off the floor lease specials and we will buy other brands because of the personalized bespoke option availability sold to you over a red carpet with CJ smiling and helping you protect yourself from questionable taste.
Or indulge it
I'm starting to wonder how a 570GT or AMG GT R, or even a AMG powered Vantage would hold up on track VS a TTS...
All faster or about as fast as an RS for about same price.
Never mind the 911R that to me is just a bespoke GT3 marketing smoke and mirror exercise.
Someone needs to get kicked in the nuts for that car not sitting under your tree right now.
In terms of value numbers VS performance numbers you quickly arrive back at a 911TTS when comparing to other high end sports car but value and performance are often not of much relevance for these cars.
I don't see many if any McLarens or AMG's at the track yet so for me RS it is but for anyone who just wants a special car that has the looks and sounds to make ones heart sing, I wouldn't be shopping Porsche any longer.
McLaren 570 would be on top of my list followed my AMG GT R.
Aston Martin will be next with AMG drive lines.
Porsches haughty approach to limited numbers and playing hard to get CXX options will come back to bite them.
Soon we'll be buying Porsches only because the off the floor lease specials and we will buy other brands because of the personalized bespoke option availability sold to you over a red carpet with CJ smiling and helping you protect yourself from questionable taste.
Or indulge it
I'm starting to wonder how a 570GT or AMG GT R, or even a AMG powered Vantage would hold up on track VS a TTS...
All faster or about as fast as an RS for about same price.
Never mind the 911R that to me is just a bespoke GT3 marketing smoke and mirror exercise.
Someone needs to get kicked in the nuts for that car not sitting under your tree right now.
There will always be a newer mclaren with fancier gadgets and they are already turbo, the real question will be "did I bed my brakes in well enough? / do I have the ***** to take ESC off ?"
Like you said in terms of outright pace they are faster than just about anything other than an ACR-E which I owned. Truth be told I LOVE the ACR for what it is but am not a dodge dealer so decided I'd be best off putting the 125k back into my Porsches and McLaren's.
12-25-2016, 08:21 PM
#37
12-25-2016, 08:31 PM
#38
BTW-I have no problem with Porsche or any other car maker offering 7 figure price models on an exclusive basis. I have no interest in those. But any model that sells for normal Porsche prices should be available to anyone wishing to buy one and especially to loyal customers. Other than rewarding 918 buyers and creating exhorbitant profits for those few who got a 911R, what purpose is served by not manufacturing and selling as many as demand requires?
12-26-2016, 12:04 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
The only Porsches that do not severely depreciate( with the exception of the GT3) are the models regular humans cannot purchase. And the only Porsches I wish to currently own are the ones that are unavailable and not because they are limited production.
There is simply no excuse for the 911R being a limited production car that only a select few can buy. This is a car that many Porsche enthusiasts have been wishing and waiting for and to be denied ownership is appalling. I had a deposit on one many months before any dealers even had a clue the car was going into production. I was first in line at Pfaff many months before anyone else. I have owned 6 Porsches in the last 8 years either purchased at Pfaff and all serviced there. End of story, no 911R for me.
This experience has alienated me as a future Porsche owner. Sold my 2011 Turbo S Cab and 2016 Boxster S. Now getting my driving thrills from Italy.
There is simply no excuse for the 911R being a limited production car that only a select few can buy. This is a car that many Porsche enthusiasts have been wishing and waiting for and to be denied ownership is appalling. I had a deposit on one many months before any dealers even had a clue the car was going into production. I was first in line at Pfaff many months before anyone else. I have owned 6 Porsches in the last 8 years either purchased at Pfaff and all serviced there. End of story, no 911R for me.
This experience has alienated me as a future Porsche owner. Sold my 2011 Turbo S Cab and 2016 Boxster S. Now getting my driving thrills from Italy.
Porsche as a company and their dealers are increasing complacent about satisfying existing customers and attracting new ones. I advised my dealer Pfaff that since I have been a loyal customer for many years and put my deposit down on the 911R months before anyone else, if I did not get an allocation I would never buy another car from them. After numerous phone calls and emails to the General Manager inquiring about the status of the allocation, I eventually received a 2 line email stating that " We regret to inform you ..."
I then called Porsche Canada to apprise them of my experience and I clearly stated that they have lost me as a customer if they do not do something for me. Two days later I received a phone call, by a secretary, reading a message that stated, " Thank you for your message. Sorry you did not receive the car you requested but do not hesitate to contact your dealer in the future for any other Porsche models that are of interest".
I then called Porsche Canada to apprise them of my experience and I clearly stated that they have lost me as a customer if they do not do something for me. Two days later I received a phone call, by a secretary, reading a message that stated, " Thank you for your message. Sorry you did not receive the car you requested but do not hesitate to contact your dealer in the future for any other Porsche models that are of interest".
If it was limited in numbers because of being a homologation special, that would be one thing, but this is a car that is strictly for drivers who don't intend on tracking the vehicle. The fact that it's a car developed for enjoyment OFF the track in in the canyons etc. is actually kind of laughable for two reasons, 1. It goes against what the original R was all about, as the original R was developed FOR RACING!!! And, 2. is that most people don't track their cars, so now they've provided the perfect car for those people and then limited it in numbers exponentially less than the car that was actually designed with playful track days in mind (RS). The funny thing is, by limiting the numbers of the R, they've upset a core group of their buyers and also due to the low numbers, have inadvertently taken these "driver's cars" off the road and put them into "collections" where they will accrue few miles. Whereas, if they sold the R in numbers that reflected demand, the prices wouldn't be insane and people would actually drive and enjoy them as the car was intended. In summary, artificial limited numbers are going to **** off your core group of loyal enthusiasts. Limited numbers because of homologation for racing or because of limited exotic materials and/or new technologies makes sense to me as you're limiting your possibility of development losses, or just trying to recoup the R&D costs of development of technologies that will eventually filter into other downline vehicles. Eventually something's gotta give, either people are going to be fed up with these type of tactics and leave the brand or Porsche's going to better read what their customer wants and improve in this area.
12-26-2016, 12:36 AM
#40
That Spider is a beauty - I'm sure it has killer presence in person.
Obviously, no one is entitled to get a 911R. Porsche is choosing to play this Ferrari type game, but the 911 doesn't have the cachet of a Ferrari. Not even close.
That said, life isn't fair and "deserve" has nothing to do with it. Want to guarantee getting the fancy pants treatment everytime? Buy the next million dollar hypercar that comes out. Porsche has set the rules and buying a cumulative million dollars worth of Porsche is apparently not the same.
Personally, I think it's a mistake - but what do I know. Porsche has always been the accessible, relatable sports car driven by "real" car guys without the douchey baggage. Sad to see if that changes.
991.2 GT3 should be pretty close to the 911R. Close enough to probably not really matter, I would think.
Obviously, no one is entitled to get a 911R. Porsche is choosing to play this Ferrari type game, but the 911 doesn't have the cachet of a Ferrari. Not even close.
That said, life isn't fair and "deserve" has nothing to do with it. Want to guarantee getting the fancy pants treatment everytime? Buy the next million dollar hypercar that comes out. Porsche has set the rules and buying a cumulative million dollars worth of Porsche is apparently not the same.
Personally, I think it's a mistake - but what do I know. Porsche has always been the accessible, relatable sports car driven by "real" car guys without the douchey baggage. Sad to see if that changes.
991.2 GT3 should be pretty close to the 911R. Close enough to probably not really matter, I would think.
12-26-2016, 12:57 AM
#41
That Spider is a beauty - I'm sure it has killer presence in person.
Obviously, no one is entitled to get a 911R. Porsche is choosing to play this Ferrari type game, but the 911 doesn't have the cachet of a Ferrari. Not even close.
That said, life isn't fair and "deserve" has nothing to do with it. Want to guarantee getting the fancy pants treatment everytime? Buy the next million dollar hypercar that comes out. Porsche has set the rules and buying a cumulative million dollars worth of Porsche is apparently not the same.
Personally, I think it's a mistake - but what do I know. Porsche has always been the accessible, relatable sports car driven by "real" car guys without the douchey baggage. Sad to see if that changes.
991.2 GT3 should be pretty close to the 911R. Close enough to probably not really matter, I would think.
Obviously, no one is entitled to get a 911R. Porsche is choosing to play this Ferrari type game, but the 911 doesn't have the cachet of a Ferrari. Not even close.
That said, life isn't fair and "deserve" has nothing to do with it. Want to guarantee getting the fancy pants treatment everytime? Buy the next million dollar hypercar that comes out. Porsche has set the rules and buying a cumulative million dollars worth of Porsche is apparently not the same.
Personally, I think it's a mistake - but what do I know. Porsche has always been the accessible, relatable sports car driven by "real" car guys without the douchey baggage. Sad to see if that changes.
991.2 GT3 should be pretty close to the 911R. Close enough to probably not really matter, I would think.
12-26-2016, 02:08 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3
If Porsche will play the VIP game, then screw buying 1-2 other Porsche cars every year like some of you do and just go all out and get the next supercar and not deal with games again.
12-26-2016, 05:10 AM
#44
The 991 R is completely different driving connection to the 675-LT SP. The 991R reminds me very much of a 964 RS, in the way the engine spools up, gear change, sound, steering feed back, feels very light also..
675LT SP, from a fun to drive emotion connection prospective is the 2nd best car I have ever owned, only the 918 is moves the game on, imv.
675LT SP, from a fun to drive emotion connection prospective is the 2nd best car I have ever owned, only the 918 is moves the game on, imv.
12-26-2016, 10:54 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
You're absolutely right! The R just never should have been a limited number car. Should have been sold in numbers that reflected demand. The artificial exclusivity on this car has really turned a lot of people off. You should take your Lambo, park it as close to the showroom as possible, leave your driver's side door open and walk into the showroom and just watch all the customers who are on the lot, slowly make their way to look at YOUR car and away from the cars that they came to shop for. Then IN person speak to the Sales Manager and remind him that he sent you to Italy when he chose to not honor you being first on the list for the R. If you own a Cayenne or Panamera, remind him that you'll be seeking to replace them soon as well and the Merc S-class and the Range Rover are starting to look VERY attractive to you as well. I'm sure he wont do crap for you. However, let him know that he can maybe make reparations by giving you THE VERY FIRST GT2RS allocation the dealership receives, and you get it at MSRP, though if I remember correctly, the Canadian dealers don't tack on any of those over MSRP nonsense anyway. Best of luck, I'd personally just love to see the look on the faces of the Porsche salesmen/women and customers that start making their way to check out your car on THEIR lot
If it was limited in numbers because of being a homologation special, that would be one thing, but this is a car that is strictly for drivers who don't intend on tracking the vehicle. The fact that it's a car developed for enjoyment OFF the track in in the canyons etc. is actually kind of laughable for two reasons, 1. It goes against what the original R was all about, as the original R was developed FOR RACING!!! And, 2. is that most people don't track their cars, so now they've provided the perfect car for those people and then limited it in numbers exponentially less than the car that was actually designed with playful track days in mind (RS). The funny thing is, by limiting the numbers of the R, they've upset a core group of their buyers and also due to the low numbers, have inadvertently taken these "driver's cars" off the road and put them into "collections" where they will accrue few miles. Whereas, if they sold the R in numbers that reflected demand, the prices wouldn't be insane and people would actually drive and enjoy them as the car was intended. In summary, artificial limited numbers are going to **** off your core group of loyal enthusiasts. Limited numbers because of homologation for racing or because of limited exotic materials and/or new technologies makes sense to me as you're limiting your possibility of development losses, or just trying to recoup the R&D costs of development of technologies that will eventually filter into other downline vehicles. Eventually something's gotta give, either people are going to be fed up with these type of tactics and leave the brand or Porsche's going to better read what their customer wants and improve in this area.
If it was limited in numbers because of being a homologation special, that would be one thing, but this is a car that is strictly for drivers who don't intend on tracking the vehicle. The fact that it's a car developed for enjoyment OFF the track in in the canyons etc. is actually kind of laughable for two reasons, 1. It goes against what the original R was all about, as the original R was developed FOR RACING!!! And, 2. is that most people don't track their cars, so now they've provided the perfect car for those people and then limited it in numbers exponentially less than the car that was actually designed with playful track days in mind (RS). The funny thing is, by limiting the numbers of the R, they've upset a core group of their buyers and also due to the low numbers, have inadvertently taken these "driver's cars" off the road and put them into "collections" where they will accrue few miles. Whereas, if they sold the R in numbers that reflected demand, the prices wouldn't be insane and people would actually drive and enjoy them as the car was intended. In summary, artificial limited numbers are going to **** off your core group of loyal enthusiasts. Limited numbers because of homologation for racing or because of limited exotic materials and/or new technologies makes sense to me as you're limiting your possibility of development losses, or just trying to recoup the R&D costs of development of technologies that will eventually filter into other downline vehicles. Eventually something's gotta give, either people are going to be fed up with these type of tactics and leave the brand or Porsche's going to better read what their customer wants and improve in this area.