How many 15-16 gt3's have engine replaced?
08-11-2016, 04:13 PM
#1201
DLC on DLC
I surmise that Dieter and rest of the P-Boyz back in Stuttgart must have data that says so. Or as further insurance. Overkill is a good thing methinks.
08-11-2016, 04:14 PM
#1202
Just top end mezger refresh is 25K, triple that to punch it out for more cow bell.
08-11-2016, 07:18 PM
#1203
Rennlist Member
Not sure I am interpreting this correctly (Macca will know) but according to this, the full cost for a complete engine replacement is $97K ! Surely that can't be right!
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3/541u/101000/
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3/541u/101000/
08-11-2016, 07:23 PM
#1204
Rennlist Member
Got my oil report back from Blackstone. Of course it only had about 700 miles on it, but wanted to just make sure all was well to start with before tracking. I'll post on the oil report thread later.
08-11-2016, 08:03 PM
#1205
Rennlist Member
Chris thanks for confirming the part number on your new heads. I will lose this question to Porsche. The part number is not the same as the latest GT3/RS heads (the same part) on the July onwards builds not is it the same as the 911R head. Also the last two digits "9R" are not consistent with the pet parts nomlature. The last two digits are usually decimal numbers and refer to the revision number or "83", "84" etc. at this stage I can only conclude they are a replacement part number for Retrofit kit as supplied to your dealer. Either that or they are a part that will show up in time on PET. It's hard to know if they differ in any way from G heads or 911R heads but at this stage I would guess no, or else the latest MA176 iteration in the 911R would incorporate them (one would think)....
08-11-2016, 09:27 PM
#1206
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08-11-2016, 09:47 PM
#1207
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I know this is a little bit of a side track but some pages before we talked about this. I got confirmation from Porsche NA that 2014 GT3 dont get CPO.
"To confirm, the dealership is correct in saying that the vehicle cannot be CPO'd. This is because Porsche AG placed an additional 1 year/50,000 miles on the 4 year/50,000 miles warranty, whichever comes first. "
So I guess everybody who got CPO with 2014 GT3s had a good rep ;-). However for me it was just important that the dealer didnt lie to me.
"To confirm, the dealership is correct in saying that the vehicle cannot be CPO'd. This is because Porsche AG placed an additional 1 year/50,000 miles on the 4 year/50,000 miles warranty, whichever comes first. "
So I guess everybody who got CPO with 2014 GT3s had a good rep ;-). However for me it was just important that the dealer didnt lie to me.
08-11-2016, 10:40 PM
#1208
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Guys,
For discussion. I thought this was worth a shot. I am a chemist and materials guy. Back in the day, I deposited DLC films and low-k dielectrics by PECVD and analyzed the materials.
Briefly, and not surprisingly, DLC film physical properties depend on the starting precursors (molecules/chemicals) in concert with the deposition process parameters. There is a continuum of material properties available to the practitioner based on varying the parameters.
Importantly,
DLC films are carbon based and thus have little to no affinity to inorganic/metal surfaces, so they can easily delaminate if the surface was not properly prepared. Cleanliness, roughness, and tie layers and/or pre-treatments are critical to adhesion. Think about using scotch tape on a dirty surface, won't stick.
Critically, and perhaps counterintuitively,
thicker is not necessarily better, and in many cases a film that is too thick may be a film with significant internal stresses. Combined with high rigidity and hardness, films that are too thick delaminate and crack. Think about bending a glass rod to the breaking point vs. a glass fiber. Which is more flexible and absorbs the work stresses more before failure? (bending moment)..
The valve train DLC failures can be easily analyzed by optical microscopy and/or a scanning electron microscope. This is routine in materials science and engineering as many of you know. I would like to see the images!
The other aspect to consider is that Porsche likely farmed out the DLC coating to a vendor who possibly made errors in the processing ala the GT3 connecting rod cap bolt snafu. Back in the day, I worked at Applied Materials and other companies where we deposited films. Sometimes there is a voodoo or trade secret aspect which may be difficult to repeat or depends on a certain apparatus.
Combine all the above with the high rpm mechanical stress and shearing, and I am not too surprised that the film failed. It is a gamble to depend on such a film in such a critical application. This is not a disposable machine tool app.
I imagine Porsche had these motors running on dynos for hours and hours followed by tearing down the valve trains and inspection? Or maybe they saw failures that were within the statistical norm, or they did not count on so many hard core trackers vs. low stress weekend jaunt types?
I hope the DLC lasts in my '16 G motor. I am closing on 2000 track miles.
Any other chemists or materials guys out there and/or other thoughts around the failure modes?
For discussion. I thought this was worth a shot. I am a chemist and materials guy. Back in the day, I deposited DLC films and low-k dielectrics by PECVD and analyzed the materials.
Briefly, and not surprisingly, DLC film physical properties depend on the starting precursors (molecules/chemicals) in concert with the deposition process parameters. There is a continuum of material properties available to the practitioner based on varying the parameters.
Importantly,
DLC films are carbon based and thus have little to no affinity to inorganic/metal surfaces, so they can easily delaminate if the surface was not properly prepared. Cleanliness, roughness, and tie layers and/or pre-treatments are critical to adhesion. Think about using scotch tape on a dirty surface, won't stick.
Critically, and perhaps counterintuitively,
thicker is not necessarily better, and in many cases a film that is too thick may be a film with significant internal stresses. Combined with high rigidity and hardness, films that are too thick delaminate and crack. Think about bending a glass rod to the breaking point vs. a glass fiber. Which is more flexible and absorbs the work stresses more before failure? (bending moment)..
The valve train DLC failures can be easily analyzed by optical microscopy and/or a scanning electron microscope. This is routine in materials science and engineering as many of you know. I would like to see the images!
The other aspect to consider is that Porsche likely farmed out the DLC coating to a vendor who possibly made errors in the processing ala the GT3 connecting rod cap bolt snafu. Back in the day, I worked at Applied Materials and other companies where we deposited films. Sometimes there is a voodoo or trade secret aspect which may be difficult to repeat or depends on a certain apparatus.
Combine all the above with the high rpm mechanical stress and shearing, and I am not too surprised that the film failed. It is a gamble to depend on such a film in such a critical application. This is not a disposable machine tool app.
I imagine Porsche had these motors running on dynos for hours and hours followed by tearing down the valve trains and inspection? Or maybe they saw failures that were within the statistical norm, or they did not count on so many hard core trackers vs. low stress weekend jaunt types?
I hope the DLC lasts in my '16 G motor. I am closing on 2000 track miles.
Any other chemists or materials guys out there and/or other thoughts around the failure modes?
As I said our fix is based on the fact that no oil film was forming. Our parts are still in process and we will still be testing them...
I know this is a little bit of a side track but some pages before we talked about this. I got confirmation from Porsche NA that 2014 GT3 dont get CPO.
"To confirm, the dealership is correct in saying that the vehicle cannot be CPO'd. This is because Porsche AG placed an additional 1 year/50,000 miles on the 4 year/50,000 miles warranty, whichever comes first. "
So I guess everybody who got CPO with 2014 GT3s had a good rep ;-). However for me it was just important that the dealer didnt lie to me.
"To confirm, the dealership is correct in saying that the vehicle cannot be CPO'd. This is because Porsche AG placed an additional 1 year/50,000 miles on the 4 year/50,000 miles warranty, whichever comes first. "
So I guess everybody who got CPO with 2014 GT3s had a good rep ;-). However for me it was just important that the dealer didnt lie to me.
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
08-11-2016, 10:48 PM
#1209
Nordschleife Master
How is there no oil film when the engine is running? I can see no oil film on startup but when the engine is running there's all kinds of oil being tossed around!
08-11-2016, 10:51 PM
#1210
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If the valve train isn't setup properly, then the oil film is squeegeed away due to the agressive contact of the cam and finger follower...
They recently changed the cams and recognize that there isn't an oil film staying on the cam lobes...
They recently changed the cams and recognize that there isn't an oil film staying on the cam lobes...
08-12-2016, 02:32 AM
#1211
2nd Gear
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Just got my gt3 with F engine,
reading these posts make me worried,
wondering will changing the exhaust/side muffler delete void warranty?
Thanks in advance
reading these posts make me worried,
wondering will changing the exhaust/side muffler delete void warranty?
Thanks in advance
08-12-2016, 02:57 AM
#1213
Are you saying this can happen throughout the entire rpm range or just at higher rpms?
08-12-2016, 03:04 AM
#1214
Rennlist Member
First congratulations on the GT3. For the muffler question you should ask your service writer. Most on here, myself included, have not had an issue just changing the muffler.
08-12-2016, 11:29 AM
#1215
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2. PDK is working strange in city traffic. When I drive slow, and trying to accelerate smooth, I see RPM's going up and also hear the sound, but there's no acceleration. Then car jumps forward, as something was holding it before, then released. It's even worse with elevation (loading car on trailer is tricky. You try to go up, car stays still. RPM's go up to 3-4000, then car jumps forward. Bloody scary.) PDK was recalibrated at the dealer's in May, but nothing changed.
Have not experienced any of these issues in RS. Torture tested it yday in 90 mins of crawling bumper to bumper traffic in 105 degree heat.
What they're doing is still using the Mezger in the Cup car. Maybe in 2017 we'll see a new motor.....