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Oh, interesting, Eduardo! Thanks for the correction on the name / translation.
And yes, to anyone wondering, I fully intend to order a GT car in this color as soon as a 991.2 GT car hits with PTS available. It's been a long time comin'.
Oh, interesting, Eduardo! Thanks for the correction on the name / translation.
And yes, to anyone wondering, I fully intend to order a GT car in this color as soon as a 991.2 GT car hits with PTS available. It's been a long time comin'.
Interestingly enough, Jade Green as we like to call it now was actually called "Light Green" in the English markets. Another color we need to get approved imo.
Eduardo, is Chartreuse similar to Birch green? Would you have a side by side sample? Love to see the comparison.
They both have quite a bit of yellow tint, but they are not 'similar' to my eyes.
I don't have a side by side, but here are two examples taken with different
lenses & light conditions - so not definite. But it gives you an idea of the
differences:
'Birch Green'
*
'Chartreuse'
*
Maybe 'Steven_H' has photos of his 'Chartreuse' 4.0 RS side-by-side with
a PTS 'Birch Green' 997 3.8 RS, like the one specced by Porsche San
Diego (Pioneer back then) in 4/2011.
**********************************
Originally Posted by NateOZ
Interestingly enough, Jade Green as we like to call it now was actually called "Light Green" in the English markets...
What English 'Porsche' market would that be, Nate? Have you ever seen that
color (called 'Hellgrün' by Porsche in Germany, color code 227) officially listed
as 'Light Green' by Porsche itself in its color charts or marketing materials? I
have not. Most books on the subject refer to it as 'Jade Green' in English.
What English 'Porsche' market would that be, Nate? Have you ever seen that
color (called 'Hellgrün' by Porsche in Germany, color code 227) officially listed
as 'Light Green' by Porsche itself in its color charts or marketing materials? I
have not. Most books on the subject refer to it as 'Jade Green' in English.
Or here in this un-official color site for 1973:
Only to be corrected with its proper 'English' name in 1974:
So I be curious to know what you are referring to, Nate!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
I was recently looking at color options for the 911R just to be ahead of the game so opened up my revised copy of the Carrera RS book by TAG. Interestingly in the copy of the offical order guide from Porsche they listed Jade Green as "Light Green" in the english name. I can post an image in a day or 2 as I don't have it with me.
Similar to this '74 order guide here, where you see the official 74 English name of gelbgrun as "Lime Green" (borrowed from an Ebay listing):
I believe at some point the name was changed from Light Green to Jade Green - it may have been during 1973 or 1974 for US market launch, but the official/factory English name in 1973 appears to be "Light Green".
I believe this also ties with the IROC mystery from the PTS reference thread, the 3 green cars being:
1) 253 - Birch Green/Bright Green
2) 137 - Lime Green/Yellow Green
3) 227 - Light Green/Jade Green
You see the Jade Green car refered to everywhere as Light Green and it syncs up with the factory name of the 10 '73 Carrera RSs also sold in Jade Green.
I hadn't posted this earlier as I've not had a chance to research it in depth yet, but it seems to make all of the information and pictures sync together on the green IROC cars.
a) CARRERA RS, by Gruber / Konradsheimm was written in German,
using primarily non-English market data. So even if they mis-translated
the color 'Hellgrün' into English, it would prove nothing.
b) In collaboration with a variety of sources, including our own Mike V. (W8MM),
Sportscentury, less than 3mph & others, we have discussed in depth the
colors of the three green IROC 911s:
Originally Posted by Nizer
Trying to pull together complete list of Porsche IROC factory RSR colors...
Nizer, I am pretty sure we got all of them straight when some of us recently discussed the topic at another thread on this forum. All 15 IROC colors were 'solid' and 'non-metallic'.
The complete list of Chassis #s, Engine #s, colors & color codes is as follows:
911.460.0016 IROC engine #684 0021, 'Light Yellow', color code 117
911.460.0025 IROC engine #684 0022, 'Grand Prix White', color code 908
911.460.0035 IROC engine #684 0024, 'Gulf Blue', color code 328
911.460.0037 IROC engine #684 0027, 'Yellow Green/Gelbgrün' (called 'Pistachio' by some at the time of the race), color code 137
911.460.0040 IROC engine #684 0023, 'Birch Green/Light Green', color code 253
911.460.0042 IROC engine #684 0025, 'Jade Green/Hellgrün', color code 227
911.460.0050 IROC engine #684 0028, 'Aubergine', color code 025
911.460.0059 IROC engine #684 0029, 'Acid Blue/Bahama Blue', color code 354
911.460.0075 IROC engine #684 0033, 'Mexico Blue', color code 336
911.460.0085 IROC engine #684 0035, 'India Red', color code 027
911.460.0090 IROC engine #684 0031, 'Orange', color code 156
911.460.0100 IROC engine #684 0024, 'Sahara Beige', color code 516
911.460.0111 IROC engine #684 0033, 'Strawberry/Fraise', color code 024
911.460.0116 IROC engine #684 0034, 'Magenta/Karminrot', color code 009
911.460.0124 IROC engine #684 0026, 'Black', color code 041 (or 700)
*********************************
This exchange with Mike Valentine got the discussion it started at the thread on the late '15 PTS gt3s back on 5/06/2015. Here are some excerpts on this fascinating topic dear to my heart!
*********************************
Originally Posted by W8MM
Birch Green (Porsche 253) is the BEST of the LIME greens
Well, Mike V., let's talk about that in greater detail since it's a fascinating color topic. A while back, I posted the following information & photos about this subject which is now worth revisiting! The 'Lime Green' color family has a quite interesting history at Porsche. In MY1974, Porsche introduced a color called 'Lichtgrün'/Birch Green', color code #253. It was a stunning color! And it's the color that Henry (JUPJAI) ordered on his beautiful 911 Turbo S cabriolet since it's available via PTS from Porsche today!
Interestingly, Porsche also offered that year another 'Lime Green' color called 'Gelbgrün/Yellow Green', which had color code 137. It is also a beautiful hue!
You can see 'Lichtgrün'/Birch Green', color code #253, compared to 'Gelbgrün/Yellow Green', color code #137, below:
And another famous & historic Porsche 'Lime Green' hue is 'Lindgrün/Chartreuse', color code #226. This was a MY1972/1973 color which was often referred in the US as 'Lime Green':
This color was last used via PTS on a .2 gt3 RS 4.0 LE in 2011:
'Lindgrün' (still with its original color code of 226) is presently under feasibility study at 'Porsche Exclusive' at the request of Rennlister 'Green Lantern' via Brett Payne at Sonnen Porsche in Marin County, CA.
We are all extremely lucky to be able to order today via PTS either ''Lichtgrün'/Birch Green' and/or ''Gelbgrün/Yellow Green'! Both are truly stunning colors! And perhaps soon we might have the opportunity to also get 'Lindgrün/Chartreuse'.
Now to a bit of fascinating historical trivia re: colors of the 1974 IROC 911 RSR's:
Rennlister W8MM (Mike V.) was the former owner of 991 460 0040 which was painted by the factory in 'Light Green'.
Supposedly there were at least three greens IROC cars, although I only see two versions of 'green' in the photos above:
911 460 0037 Engine 684 0027, Pistachio Green
911 460 0040 Engine 684 0023, Light Green
911 460 0042 Engine 684 0025, Bright Green
And this ad list one of the IROC cars by its proper Porsche name - 'Birch Green', which is color code 253:
Mike: Why don't you tell us more about the color of your old IROC RSR and show us photos, etc? Plus any other color information you might have on any of the other IROC Porsches, especially the 'Green' ones? Thank you in advance for any assistance & info you can provide us re: this topic on our forum.
*****************
Originally Posted by W8MM
Eduardo,
I only know about 911 460 0040 in any detail, but I'll add what I can.
The reason there are only two green (pistachio & bright) cars in the parking lot photo above is that there are only 12 cars in that picture -- not the full 15 produced. My 0040 was a practice car, driven by everyone (sooner or later), as spelled out in that antique Stoddard advert, and not one of the 12 "race" cars.
Color photos from the day are quite unreliable for color fidelity. Magazine shots taken in KodaColor had the tendency to suppress the blue component compared to real life. As a result, Birch green came out looking pretty yellow. KodaChrome transparencies had a pumped up blue level (compared to real life) and looked more green. Early digital photos taken while I had the car were also a crap shoot as to the recorded hue.
Birch green was VERY difficult to faithfully record the hue until very recently. When I want to remember the exact hue of Birch green, I walk out to the garage, go up to the loft, and pick up a piece of the fiberglass bumper I still have post-crash repair. Then I can be sure. I broke off a small piece of it that fits in my shirt pocket if I need to take it with me
So, no need to show less than faithful pix just to confuse the issue. Showing great shots of paint paddles is better.
OT: The practice vs race provenance might be a bit muddy since some references indicate that 0040 may have been pressed into service at one of the later Riverside races to temporarily replace a crash-damaged member of the original "race 12".
More OT: Both photos above show all the cars in the "duck tail" configuration -- in which they were never raced. They were all converted to the "whale tail" after USA testing found they needed more rear downforce. The Riverside configuration was modified for Daytona because of the high speed banking. The whale tail was further amplified by the addition of a form fit black anodized aluminum "wicker bill" or "Gurney lip" that stuck up from the trailing edge of the wing. The suspension was also tweaked for the effects of the constant and heavy aero loading while circulating the banking.
*****************
Originally Posted by Less than 3mph
Very interesting read!!! Thanks guys! Do you have a list of the colours of all 15?
The cars...
The drivers...
The colors...
1) 'Mexico Blue', color code 336
2) 'Acid Blue/Bahama Blue', color code 354
3) 'Gulf Blue', color code 328
4) 'Yellow Green', color code 137
5) 'Light Green/Birch Green', color code 253
6) 'Grand Prix White', color code 908
7) 'Black', color code 041 (or 700)
8) 'Strawberry/Fraise', color code 024,
9) 'India Red', color code 027
10) Magenta', color code 009,
11) 'Aubergine', color code 025
12) 'Orange', color code 156
13) 'Sahara Beige', color code 516
Question Marks:
14) 'Bright Green' (Irish?) color code 213 or something else
15) 'Bright Yellow', color code 139 (?) or 'Light Yellow', color code 117
Mike, would you care to comment on the actual name & code of these last two colors?
***********
Originally Posted by W8MM
Eduardo,
Sorry, I'm absolutely no help on those color codes.
***********
Originally Posted by sportscentury
Ed, are you speculating "bright yellow" is the top left car? Not clear from the photo, but looks a bit like BMW's Dakar yellow.
The names & color codes of the first 13 hues on my list is pretty much agreed to by most folks I have seen write about it in the web. I need to do more research on the true name & color codes of the last two hues - described normally as 'Bright Yellow' & 'Bright Green'. For example, the color of this one 'Yellow' car. It looks to me like 'Light Yellow', color code 117:
I am not sure of the exact color used in the 'Bright Green' either...particularly since 'Irish Green/213' is very dark color and not that 'Bright'!
******** I am pretty sure that the 'Bright Green' is not 'Irish Green', color code 213 as I have seen it previously reported in the web. I believe the color is actually 'Jade Green', color code 227, which is often referred by its German name 'Hellgrün'. This was a 'special color' in MY1974 and would have made more sense that it was the one chosen to paint this car! The colors are not correctly captured in the period photos due to the peculiarities of the Kodak film used at the time!
Here is as it was raced:
There is even this old post at another forum from one 'Mike V.' that also posted earlier on this thread. He was making the point that the photo (first above) is not of his old 'Birch Green' 9114600040, but Mike goes on to mention he thinks that color is 'Hellgrün' ('Jade Green'), which makes more sense!
"Mike Valentine 11-May-2011 13:58
I'm 99.99% certain that this car is not 9114600040.
This photo shows headlights instead of the black caps that were used in the series, making me think that it was taken after the series was well over. Also, 9114600040 was sold to Stoddard after the Daytona finale and would have had a wicker bill (Gurney flap) attached to the trailing edge of the whale tail. This car seems to be configured for the Riverside races without the extra rear downforce required for Daytona. Another factor is that this color doesn't look in this photo like hellgruen does in real life. This photo has way too much blue and not enough yellow in the color rendition. BTW, I bought 9114600040 from Chuck Stoddard after it had been owned in the interim by a gentleman residing in Utah who had 9" rims front and rear. This car has 9s & 11s in the photo."
**************
Originally Posted by Brian 96C2
Hi Ed,
Yes, .0016 is Light Yellow or Hellgelb (117) which is not 'bright' IMO. Also Gelbgrün is called Lime Green and lastly Bright Green (Hellgrün) is indeed Jade Green. Good job on those colors.
*************
Originally Posted by W8MM
Eduardo,
That is my belief, also. All solid, no metallic.
Remember, they had to fix them before the next race after any body damage and metallic paint would complicate the process.
************
Originally Posted by W8MM
Eduardo,
That is my belief, also. All solid, no metallic.
Remember, they had to fix them before the next race after any body damage and metallic paint would complicate the process.
Good point, Mike. I am sorry you sold #040. That would have been the color to keep among the IROC RSRs!
Did you buy it directly from Stoddard at $21,000?
Please tell us the full story on the beautiful 'Birch Green' IROC (chassis #40) & where it ended up! If you have photos of when you owned it, we would love to see them!
*******************************
Mike has not answered that last question I posed...the topic reverted back to the late PTS gt3s in that forum. But hopefully it can be continued on this thread!
*******************************
Original exchange above can be found here:
My thanks to W8MM, Brian 96C2, Sportscentury, Pelican, Early 911S & others for helping us put together the full story of the colors of the 1974 IROC 911 RSR's!
Nate: Sorry to say it but I am finished discussing colors with you -
on this thread & all other threads in the future. Good luck in all
future endeavors.
a) CARRERA RS, by Gruber / Konradsheimm was written in German,
using primarily non-English market data. So even if they mis-translated
the color 'Hellgrün' into English, it would prove nothing.
Nate: Sorry to say it but I am finished discussing colors with you -
on this thread & all other threads in the future. Good luck in all
future endeavors.
Saludos,
Eduardo
I don't care if you respond or not, but people need to understand that a lot of misinformation is being spread.
I'm not sighting internet sources which are full of errors. I'm using official factory color charts. Here is both sides of the one I posted earlier from 1974. Note that the name given to gelbgrun is "Lime Green" in English. This is not a translation but is the official English name for the color when it was published in 1974. The same applies to the 1973 colorchart for Hellgrun as "Light Green" in English.
I'm using the offical 1973 color chart that was published in the latest Carrera RS book.
Here is the 1974 color chart, take note of the four factory names of Gelbgrun.
I don't care if you respond or not, but people need to understand that a lot of misinformation is being spread.
I'm not sighting internet sources which are full of errors.
'Sighting' or 'citing'?
Are you telling us here at Rennlist that 'people need to understand
that a lot of misinformation is being spread'. By whom? Me?
You have no basis (nor the credibility & standing) for making that
slanderous charge!
Are you telling us here at Rennlist that 'people need to understand
that a lot of misinformation is being spread'. By whom? Me?
You have no basis (nor the credibility & standing) for making that
slanderous charge!
Eduardo
Thanks for the well thought out and researched reponse, you're 100% correct that it should have been citing!
Thanks so much for all your work. I have always admired 226 and wanted to order my PTS RS in this shade. I was going to order 253 Birch but at the last moment changed my mind as was always hopeful that 226 one day be available. I am grateful for your efforts, as for certain this seals the deal on my next PTS. Chartreuse it is. Thank you once again.
The yellow greens are particularly tricky. I have seen the San Diego Birch green 997.2 RS and it is significantly different from my Chartreuse 4.0. Both are very difficult to photograph accurately. Birch Green is slighter paler and less saturated. Chartreuse is stronger and more complex, but not as bright and 'pure' as my Lime Green 74 Euro Carrera or as bright as my Liecht Grun 74 Carrera RS 3.0. I also believe that even factory versions of historic colors are different from the original 70's colors - different paint formulations. When my 4.0 was next to a Chartreuse 73 RS owned by a friend, the colors were subtly different. I'll be curious to see my Maritime Blue 991 RS next to my 964 RS of the same color.
The yellow greens are particularly tricky. I have seen the San Diego Birch green 997.2 RS and it is significantly different from my Chartreuse 4.0. Both are very difficult to photograph accurately. Birch Green is slighter paler and less saturated. Chartreuse is stronger and more complex, but not as bright and 'pure' as my Lime Green 74 Euro Carrera or as bright as my Liecht Grun 74 Carrera RS 3.0. I also believe that even factory versions of historic colors are different from the original 70's colors - different paint formulations. When my 4.0 was next to a Chartreuse 73 RS owned by a friend, the colors were subtly different. I'll be curious to see my Maritime Blue 991 RS next to my 964 RS of the same color.
12-17-2015, 08:24 PM
