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Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..

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Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..

 
Old 09-07-2015, 12:14 AM
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Default Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..

So the embargo broke a few hours ago (midnight in Germany).

Here's the link from Autocar, which is the best writeup I've seen: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mo...clusive-studio

There aren't really any surprises that deviate from the speculation, but of much more interest to me are the implications for the next GT3.

I think there are probably two schools of thought:

1 - GT3 will remain NA and receive gradual, incremental enhancements

This is what Porsche has telegraphed to the press through Preuninger and other known company mouthpieces, so it's probably the best bet at this point.

However...

2 - The "GT3" will go turbo or become a GT2

Porsche will be marketing turbo cars and efficiency in general quite heavily, and they will be expending lots of energy and cash to do so; releasing a halo car that contradicts that impetus would not be on brand message.

The 991.1 GT3 suffered embarrassing and expensive engine failures (785 engine replacements worldwide at ~$50K per lump, plus inestimable reputational and goodwill damage), and the 991.1 4.0 RS has seen several engine failures already. This despite the fact that Porsche lowered the redline in the RS by 200 RPM to bring the corrected mean piston speed to the same figure that the 3.8 liter 991.1 GT3 experiences. Each new RS that saw engine failure was tracked hard, and that's probably a small sample of the cars delivered given the speculative market dynamics for the car at present. The new 3.8/4.0 engine was supposed to be serve through the entirety of the 991 generation, but that was before the failures emerged. This is a major black eye for the Motorsport division; even if you ascribe zero "cost" to the downtime on the production line, no cars available for magazine/media testing, negative goodwill among some of their best customers, broader reputational repercussions, etc. the expense of replacing 785 $50K engines was $40MM at a MINIMUM.

As the engine is already maxed out in terms of specific output, Porsche will have to the fit the 4.0 liter engine to extract additional power and torque over the 3.8 liter engine; that engine is much more expensive due to the special new crank material borrowed from the 919. That would likely push the price of the 991.2 GT3 much higher than the 991.1 GT3 (base ~$131K USD). Perhaps $15K-$20K?

The 991.2 Carrera S laps the Nurburgring in 7:34, only 9 seconds behind the 991.1 GT3. Undoubtedly that Carrera S has the optimal set of options to achieve that pace over a single lap (PCCB, RWS, etc.); the new Carrera S also wears wider rubber than the 991.1 (305mm rears vs 295mm), although the OE tire is a Pirelli P Zero, NOT the vastly better Michelin PSC2 or Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, so the gap is closer when tires are controlled for. Remember also that they have to build in a gap for the 991.2 Carrera GTS, which will probably produce 445 bhp... Much easier to extract the requisite performance gap by fitting a turbo engine that produces more power and lots more torque than the 991.1 GT3 engine.

Worldwide GT3/GTE regulations are in flux and rapidly evolving. The race car versions of the Ford GT and 488 GTB will have turbo engines. Porsche cannot continue competing with the Mezger engine indefinitely, as it is heavier than newer engines and lacks DFI for fuel economy. Fans are increasingly critical of BOP, which has helped the current 911 RSR and the Aston Martins immensely this year; the RSR has won every major sports car/endurance race in which it has competed since Le Mans (both WEC and Tudor). They will have to go turbo (and/or hybrid?) soon.

So... sorry to ramble, but I think the next "GT3" may be a GT2.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:45 AM
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Where was it said that the 991.2 runs the ring in 7:34?
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Where was it said that the 991.2 runs the ring in 7:34?
In the article posted above.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Where was it said that the 991.2 runs the ring in 7:34?
"Porsche quotes a 7min 34sec Nurburgring time for the Carrera S – some six seconds quicker than the previous model. "

http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/166...charged-future

Another quote: " ‘There will never be another series production normally aspirated 911,’ he says, ‘but maybe we will do some special edition cars.’ "
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Old 09-07-2015, 01:17 AM
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I think the GT3 will stay NA for this generation. Next generation I think will likely go hybrid. Most likely similar to the 918 with a fwd electric motor.

Or they could keep it NA and make a smaller production volume for the purists. Leave the lap times to the turbo S and GT2.
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Old 09-07-2015, 01:48 AM
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I bet that the 991.2 GT3 will remain NA.. I'm counting on it. I am #5 on the waiting list for it at my dealer
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Old 09-07-2015, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by R35driver View Post
I think the GT3 will stay NA for this generation. Next generation I think will likely go hybrid. Most likely similar to the 918 with a fwd electric motor.

Or they could keep it NA and make a smaller production volume for the purists. Leave the lap times to the turbo S and GT2.
I thought that too, until recently. There's enough stuff on the other side of the ledger to make me think we may end up with a GT2.
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:23 AM
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Autocar ..
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:36 AM
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Yup, the GT3, RS, and GT4 will remain NA. Who gives a crap of the regular 911s are turbos.
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3 View Post
Yup, the GT3, RS, and GT4 will remain NA. Who gives a crap of the regular 911s are turbos.
Agreed. I think those cars the RS, GT3, GT4, plus maybe the Boxster Spyder will remain NA, but the rest of the line will go turbo.

I don't think the GTS will stay NA. There has been a lot of misquotes about this because AP said the GT cars will stay NA, but he was talking about the real GT cars, the GT3, RS, GT4. I think the GTS versions of the Boxster, Cayman, 911, Cayenne, Macan, Panamera will all be turbo.

Last edited by Drifting; 09-07-2015 at 02:42 AM. Reason: .
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
Agreed. I think those cars the RS, GT3, GT4, plus maybe the Boxster Spyder will remain NA, but the rest of the line will go turbo.

I don't think the GTS will stay NA. There has been a lot of misquotes about this because AP said the GT cars will stay NA, but he was talking about the real GT cars, the GT3, RS, GT4. I think the GTS versions of the Boxster, Cayman, and 911 will all be turbo.
I like how there were some people on here who thought the GT cars were going to go to turbos with the .2 variants. I'm on the list with a few dealerships for the .2GT cars so I'm not going to go through the BS of trying to get a GT4 or RS.
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
So... sorry to ramble, but I think the next "GT3" may be a GT2.
i'm also curious to see how they are going to differentiate a carrera 4s from the turbo now. carrera 4s with a few mods would be just as fast and what like 80k less??
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Old 09-07-2015, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by R35driver View Post
i'm also curious to see how they are going to differentiate a carrera 4s from the turbo now. carrera 4s with a few mods would be just as fast and what like 80k less??
My guess is that the turbos on the carrera cars will be smaller and so will the engine, along with them turning the boost down.
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Where was it said that the 991.2 runs the ring in 7:34?
Originally Posted by doubleurx View Post
In the article posted above.
The actual press release refers to 7 min 30 seconds (full 10 Seconds faster than 991 Carrera S), which brings the numbers much closer to the GT3 and especially on P Zero tires. Very impressive considering the 55HP deficit, and standard street tires. Mark

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/06/2...#slide-3609764
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by R35driver View Post
i'm also curious to see how they are going to differentiate a carrera 4s from the turbo now. carrera 4s with a few mods would be just as fast and what like 80k less??
It would rather be silly to have a model called 911 Turbo, since all of the 911's will have a turbo. Perhaps there will be new model designations to describe a 911 with a bigger turbos such as 911 turbo 2 or 911 turbo GTS, or something similar. Mark
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