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I have yet to read, hear or see any real discussion (from the media, government or car manufacturers) how upcoming regs will affect the industry - specifically.
I'll say what no one else will: The Germans, among many others, continue to go completely off their respective rocker when it involves the farce that is 'Climate Change' or whatever PC name is given to it as of today. I don't wish to get into a discussion of climate change, CO2 regs, or anything similar. But I can't help but wonder if VAG's, Porsche's, Europe's, USA's switch to smaller force-fed engines will ever even counterbalance a day's worth of C02 or real pollution pumped into the atmosphere by China.
How about a single flight in a jumbo jet by our "climate friendly" politicians, or Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio? I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day. That article no longer exists on the Web. Hmm... Was it full of false data, or?
To use Porsche as an example:
If they were really trying to lower their overall fleet average why start the process of downsizing engines on the 911 model line first? Wouldn't lowering 'consumption' in their best sellers be more effective, while leaving the NA sports cars alone? Doesn't the Cayenne, Macan & Panamera sell in greater numbers? Aren't those heavier vehicles as well? Why wouldn't they concentrate first on downsizing the big V8's and V6TT in those models to high-pressure four bangers like Mercedes did with the CLA 45 AMG for instance?
Every time I think I'd be fine with thought of a future 99? C4S or GT3/RS with a NA engine + hybrid (which gets my vote over being turbo) I think how unbelievably complex and expensive the 918 is. And the thought of a potential 5-figure repair or maintenance bill on a 911 is of major concern.
I have yet to read, hear or see any real discussion (from the media, government or car manufacturers) how upcoming regs will affect the industry - specifically.
I'll say what no one else will: The Germans, among many others, continue to go completely off their respective rocker when it involves the farce that is 'Climate Change' or whatever PC name is given to it as of today. I don't wish to get into a discussion of climate change, CO2 regs, or anything similar. But I can't help but wonder if VAG's, Porsche's, Europe's, USA's switch to smaller force-fed engines will ever even counterbalance a day's worth of C02 or real pollution pumped into the atmosphere by China.
How about a single flight in a jumbo jet by our "climate friendly" politicians, or Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio? I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day. That article no longer exists on the Web. Hmm... Was it full of false data, or?
To use Porsche as an example:
If they were really trying to lower their overall fleet average why start the process of downsizing engines on the 911 model line first? Wouldn't lowering 'consumption' in their best sellers be more effective, while leaving the NA sports cars alone? Doesn't the Cayenne, Macan & Panamera sell in greater numbers? Aren't those heavier vehicles as well? Why wouldn't they concentrate first on downsizing the big V8's and V6TT in those models to high-pressure four bangers like Mercedes did with the CLA 45 AMG for instance?
Every time I think I'd be fine with thought of a future 99? C4S or GT3/RS with a NA engine + hybrid (which gets my vote over being turbo) I think how unbelievably complex and expensive the 918 is. And the thought of a potential 5-figure repair or maintenance bill on a 911 is of major concern.
Yep. Read the article yesterday, and it was indeed my inspiration. One of the commentors under the article must have seen the same article or similar to the one I saw. Although the one I read went into the amount of fuel the typical jumbo jet burns just on take-off.
Didn't know if Jack Baruth is known too well in the Rennlist forums, but I happen to like how he writes.
Yep. Read the article yesterday, and it was indeed my inspiration. One of the commentors under the article must have seen the same article or similar to the one I saw. Although the one I read went into the amount of fuel the typical jumbo jet burns just on take-off.
Didn't know if Jack Baruth is known too well in the Rennlist forums, but I happen to like how he writes.
I saw the comment you referenced myself.
Jack is fairly well known, and is actually a member of RL. I know his brother, "Bark", personally and occasionally throw TTAC an article myself.
I have yet to read, hear or see any real discussion (from the media, government or car manufacturers) how upcoming regs will affect the industry - specifically.
The 918 proves that you can get more performance than you'll ever need under the current regs, it simply takes complexity. I'm not a fan of complexity, but it's not without other upsides.
Any histrionics over the 911 going turbo are I feel unwarranted. Most will find the new 911s better than the old and life will go on. I'm also not a fan of chicken little syndrome- getting hysterical about the current change undermines car enthusiasts' case. Catalytic converters seemed terrible to many in the 70s; most will now agree that view was short-sighted. The current opposition echos those who found themselves on the wrong side of history, and this weakens their argument.
Where enthusiasts might better focus their concern is an area that so far I've heard no discussion of: the exact wording of future regulation. Some are trying to specify "well to wheels" measurement of carbon impact. Depending how it's calculated it would in essence mean that plug-in vehicles would do only somewhat better than their gas counterparts in terms of carbon emissions: the 918 strategy won't work with these regs.
Porsche is currently likely planning to go hybrid across the board to get corporate averages down, and this looks very practical with current regs. The new turbo engines are heavy, roughly 530 lbs for 420 hp. Given that the 918's engine makes 608 hp from less than 300 lbs you can see that there's plenty of potential for weight reduction to offset a hybrid system's batteries and motors. Make that plug-in and you've got current CO2 regs solved with cars that look very much like today's, at least for most of the fleet (please leave at least a couple normally aspirated GT cars).
With well to wheels, however, this doesn't work. You'll still need hybrid, but you'll also need to get drastic with weight reduction and power reduction. That will change the driving experience significantly if it comes to pass, though I suspect Porsche is well positioned technically for that future due to their engineering excellence.
Originally Posted by Zeus
I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day.
The largest classes of container ships in service use 300 tons of fuel per day when doing >23 knots. We use 1.6 million tons of fuel per day in the US for ground transportation. Total shipping is 4% of US fuel usage. Shipping is twice as efficient as rail and 8x as efficient as truck transport per ton transported. Meanwhile trucks are 10-20x as efficient per ton moved than a Porsche.
All air transport is 8%.
I'm not sure this is a productive line of comparison- it leads to reducing the biggest and least efficient slice of the pie: the 60% of fuel used in light duty vehicles and passenger transport. We can double, triple or more the efficiency of passenger transport without impacting performance, and that's simply not possible in other areas. The VW XL1 gets 270 mpg... Sign me up for one with half that mileage that's fun to drive.
Originally Posted by Zeus
If they were really trying to lower their overall fleet average why start the process of downsizing engines on the 911 model line first?
The 911 isn't first. The Macan is already all Turbo. The Cayenne lost its performance normally aspirated option last year (GTS). Porsche has already been downsizing, it's just finally gotten to the 911.
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
I think it can seem that way, but I step back and see a different picture:
And the old defense, that the competition can't turn, or isn't durable around a track, is going away. The original 996.1 GT3 was the fastest car around the 'ring when it was released, period. Today you've got Vipers, Vettes and Nissans that are both cheaper and faster than a 991 GT3 or GT3 RS.
Those cars used to be drag racers, then they got brakes and learned to turn. You've got dry sumps, etc that are making inroads on Porsche's legendary durability advantage. I'd argue they are generally not there yet, but I'd also argue that the competitive landscape has changed significantly in the last couple decades...
Herein lies the problem. Yet Porsche is pulling it off, at least so far. My first car was an '86 944 Turbo, and it was within a stone's throw of the Vette in '86 in terms of price/ performance: 220 German horses (before I chipped it) pushing ~2850 lbs vs 230 US horses pushing ~3200 lbs. 32k vs 26k, and the Porsche had heaps more durability and quality.
Today the Vette's up to 55k, so the equivalent ~20% more expensive Porsche is a $65k Cayman S. The power gap meanwhile has gone from 10 hp... to 135 hp. Yet Porsche is still selling lots of cars. Still on the back of superior durability and quality, but also on the "fun", "feel" and "involvement" you mention above. Because honestly somewhere in the back of our minds we already know- the Vette might be faster, but that doesn't mean it's more fun.
That's completely true. Porsche's customers still demand that if they pay more they need to get more (performance, in this case). But by bumping the 991.2 just 20 hp that leaves plenty of room for the GT3 to gain just 25 hp, and everyone will stay happy...
Having owned an Aston, the R8 5.2 and now an APR tuned RS7 there is something missing as compared to my previous Porsches - solidity and character in the drive. The Aston might have had more presence and the R8 was a great piece of engineering. I had the Stasis tune, exhaust, better filters, etc. on the R8 - so it had the performance and the sound that should have added up to a great driving experience. It was very capable, comfortable and was basically point and shoot - like driving a video game in novice mode. I traded it for the RS7, partly because of the practicality but mostly because the RS7 was more fun to drive. Granted, I'm not able to drive the twisty roads the same way, but it makes me smile and yet...
I still compare everything to my Porsches and nothing can compare to the whole package. When people tell me they don't get the whole Porsche thing I know they've never driven one. There's a reason Porsche has so many loyal customers. Provided the car remains an extension of the driver and puts a smile on the driver's face Porsche will be ok.
Some official video. Sounds obviously edited to sound at its best. Not terrible
I find it odd how the Turbo doesn't have an option for PSE and associated exhaust button yet the now turbo'd Carrera gets that day 1. Does Porsche have a controlling interest in Europipe?!
I was going to say as well...the 911 isn't the start. Panamara and Cayenne all had hybrid options for a few years now and like Pete said, the Cayenne GTS lost it's V8 for a turbo 6. Macans don't even have an NA option. In fact the 911 is the second to last line up seeing these changes. It will be across the board with the new motors for the Boxter and Cayman.
09-09-2015, 12:05 PM
politicians, or Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio? I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day. That article no longer exists on the Web. Hmm... Was it full of false data, or?
