'15 GT3 allocation available - Los Angeles
10-12-2014, 02:28 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Guys, maybe we should lighten up a bit? I've been dealing with Glen and BH Porsche on my '14 GT3 since I ordered it in January. MSRP, and they've been very supportive during the whole long and frustrating wait.....
I've also dealt with them in the past. ALL GOOD....
I've also dealt with them in the past. ALL GOOD....
10-12-2014, 03:59 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
It is absolutely true that dealers have an agreement with PCNA to not charge over msrp. Doing so puts them at jeopardy for losing the ability to act as an authorized retailer/reseller of Porsche product. There is no law being broken. But Porsche can pull their brand off the sign and refuse to provide cars.
10-12-2014, 04:22 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
"Absolutely true"? Absolutely is a strong word. Obviously you possess a copy of this official "secret " document or maybe an actual dealer principal told you this.
Forgive me for assuming that you do not have a copy of or have ever seen this mysterious dealer- manufacturer agreement.
As I have stated before, dealers are independent business's and can charge whatever they see fit. If any manufacturer tried to pull the franchise of a successful dealership because they do not like that dealer's pricing strategies they would be sued by that dealer with backing from the NADA in 2 seconds.
Also, isn't there a "good dealer, bad dealer" list here on Rennlist talking about how "bad" dealers are charging over MSRP? How many on the bad list have lost their franchise?
You do realize that Porsche gets paid as soon as the cars are dropped off at the dealership whether or not the dealer has them pre-sold? Seeing how Porsche makes over 20k per vehicle sold to the dealer do you really believe that they are going to hold inventory from a successful dealer willing to take inventory?
Forgive me for assuming that you do not have a copy of or have ever seen this mysterious dealer- manufacturer agreement.
As I have stated before, dealers are independent business's and can charge whatever they see fit. If any manufacturer tried to pull the franchise of a successful dealership because they do not like that dealer's pricing strategies they would be sued by that dealer with backing from the NADA in 2 seconds.
Also, isn't there a "good dealer, bad dealer" list here on Rennlist talking about how "bad" dealers are charging over MSRP? How many on the bad list have lost their franchise?
You do realize that Porsche gets paid as soon as the cars are dropped off at the dealership whether or not the dealer has them pre-sold? Seeing how Porsche makes over 20k per vehicle sold to the dealer do you really believe that they are going to hold inventory from a successful dealer willing to take inventory?
i have worked with Porsche and I am aware of the agreements between PCNA and dealers, both Porsche premier dealers and independent dealers... the world is of course not nearly as black and white as you are trying to make it in your basic arguments....
yes, Porsche sells to the dealer, not to the customer... yes, Porsche dealers "resell" cars to the public... but there are absolutely contractual agreements that stipulate lots of things - how the brand can be used, pricing, warranties, service, etc. in the most extreme version of your argument, the independent dealer could use girls in bikinis holding hand written Porsche logos in the parking lot... its a ridiculous assertion... the independent dealers agree to many things, including inventory, liabilities, pricing, many other things...
you can choose to believe or not, don't care...
now what I cannot speak to, is the level of enforcement on these topics...
Last edited by mrsullivan; 10-12-2014 at 04:50 PM.
10-12-2014, 05:10 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
i know all of this yes... there obviously is no secret agreement...
i have worked with Porsche and I am aware of the agreements between PCNA and dealers, both Porsche premier dealers and independent dealers... the world is of course not nearly as black and white as you are trying to make it in your basic arguments....
yes, Porsche sells to the dealer, not to the customer... yes, Porsche dealers "resell" cars to the public... but there are absolutely contractual agreements that stipulate lots of things - how the brand can be used, pricing, warranties, service, etc. in the most extreme version of your argument, the independent dealer could use girls in bikinis holding hand written Porsche logos in the parking lot... its a ridiculous assertion... the independent dealers agree to many things, including inventory, liabilities, pricing, many other things...
you can choose to believe or not, don't care...
now what I cannot speak to, is the level of enforcement on these topics...
i have worked with Porsche and I am aware of the agreements between PCNA and dealers, both Porsche premier dealers and independent dealers... the world is of course not nearly as black and white as you are trying to make it in your basic arguments....
yes, Porsche sells to the dealer, not to the customer... yes, Porsche dealers "resell" cars to the public... but there are absolutely contractual agreements that stipulate lots of things - how the brand can be used, pricing, warranties, service, etc. in the most extreme version of your argument, the independent dealer could use girls in bikinis holding hand written Porsche logos in the parking lot... its a ridiculous assertion... the independent dealers agree to many things, including inventory, liabilities, pricing, many other things...
you can choose to believe or not, don't care...
now what I cannot speak to, is the level of enforcement on these topics...
I stand by my statement that no such agreement exists.
If you can provide a copy of this agreement, should be easy for you since you "worked with Porsche", I will be glad to change my position on this matter.
Or is this one of those non-written, non-enforceable, secret handshake agreements that no one has ever seen yet everyone knows exists?
10-12-2014, 06:20 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
zucc, happy to share my experiences with PCNA and details through PM, but not going to scan and post documents on a public online forum... if that's what you are asking me to do... that doesn't make me a fake, it makes me sane... not sure why you are so whipped up about this, but every time you set up a stawman argument to knock down (secret handshakes), you just sound very emotional about this... did you pay over MSRP for your car or something?
anyways, I have enjoyed your other recent posts on the forum, glad you are here... I have been here for 10+ years and don't throw out BS to make myself feel more important about a topic...
anyways, I have enjoyed your other recent posts on the forum, glad you are here... I have been here for 10+ years and don't throw out BS to make myself feel more important about a topic...
10-12-2014, 08:39 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
zucc, happy to share my experiences with PCNA and details through PM, but not going to scan and post documents on a public online forum... if that's what you are asking me to do... that doesn't make me a fake, it makes me sane... not sure why you are so whipped up about this, but every time you set up a stawman argument to knock down (secret handshakes), you just sound very emotional about this... did you pay over MSRP for your car or something?
anyways, I have enjoyed your other recent posts on the forum, glad you are here... I have been here for 10+ years and don't throw out BS to make myself feel more important about a topic...
anyways, I have enjoyed your other recent posts on the forum, glad you are here... I have been here for 10+ years and don't throw out BS to make myself feel more important about a topic...
I'm not the one who keeps talking about straw men,dancing girls and accusing people of paying over MSRP. Which is kind of funny when you think about it since the dealer jeopardizes losing his franchise according to you.My statement is simple: There is no written agreement that prohibits a Porsche dealer in the US from selling over MSRP.
Prove me wrong or move on.
10-12-2014, 09:21 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Emotional? I'm not the one who keeps talking about straw men,dancing girls and accusing people of paying over MSRP. Which is kind of funny when you think about it since the dealer jeopardizes losing his franchise according to you.
My statement is simple: There is no written agreement that prohibits a Porsche dealer in the US from selling over MSRP.
Prove me wrong or move on.
I'm not the one who keeps talking about straw men,dancing girls and accusing people of paying over MSRP. Which is kind of funny when you think about it since the dealer jeopardizes losing his franchise according to you.My statement is simple: There is no written agreement that prohibits a Porsche dealer in the US from selling over MSRP.
Prove me wrong or move on.
I still think someone maybe paid over MSRP. I never said it doesnt happen. And I was careful to point out that I'm not saying its always enforced. But it is part of the license agreement to not charge customers over MSRP and doing so puts their license at risk. There is a reason not every dealer does this.
I offered to go in more detail offline... I'm done, agree to disagree.
Last edited by mrsullivan; 10-12-2014 at 09:39 PM.
10-12-2014, 09:42 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
You just keep trying to confuse the issue. I never said that a dealer could do anything they wanted. The Porsche Sales and Service Dealer agreement is several pages long and covers many issues.
However, it does not prohibit dealers from selling cars for over MSRP. That is all I ever said. All the extra examples and words came from you.
If you or anyone else can prove me wrong, I will admit it and apologize for being so adamant about it. I would hope that you would do the same when you realize that I am correct.
However, it does not prohibit dealers from selling cars for over MSRP. That is all I ever said. All the extra examples and words came from you.
If you or anyone else can prove me wrong, I will admit it and apologize for being so adamant about it. I would hope that you would do the same when you realize that I am correct.
10-12-2014, 11:35 PM
#40
I do have a dog in this fight, I ended up cancelling my over msrp order for a 4.0 due to the games that these dealers play. I ended up with a used 4.0 because of this but the fact is that these people do play these games at the detriment of real drivers.
10-13-2014, 12:29 AM
#41
Nordschleife Master
A bit over msrp doesn't sound bad given the price 4.0's are commanding now a days over $300k
10-13-2014, 02:30 PM
#42
You just keep trying to confuse the issue. I never said that a dealer could do anything they wanted. The Porsche Sales and Service Dealer agreement is several pages long and covers many issues.
However, it does not prohibit dealers from selling cars for over MSRP. That is all I ever said. All the extra examples and words came from you.
If you or anyone else can prove me wrong, I will admit it and apologize for being so adamant about it. I would hope that you would do the same when you realize that I am correct.
However, it does not prohibit dealers from selling cars for over MSRP. That is all I ever said. All the extra examples and words came from you.
If you or anyone else can prove me wrong, I will admit it and apologize for being so adamant about it. I would hope that you would do the same when you realize that I am correct.
You're arguing that someone needs to show you a written, signed agreement before you acknowledge. At the same time you cannot disproof that it exists either and keep asking this forum to believe, put trust in you.
Yes, there are those that will charge over MSRP and there are ways around it. But at the same token if it was that easy why aren't all doing it. Why even have an MSRP if every dealer knows best based on their market.
10-13-2014, 02:55 PM
#43
Race Director
I say Zucc and mrsullivan settle this in PM so what ever confidential information that needs to be exchanged to settle this can be done.
I would be interested on how this ends because I would like to know if there is a written agreement that a Porsche Dealer can not sell a new car over MSRP. We ALL know that it is certainly not enforced. - that is for sure
I would be interested on how this ends because I would like to know if there is a written agreement that a Porsche Dealer can not sell a new car over MSRP. We ALL know that it is certainly not enforced. - that is for sure
10-13-2014, 03:09 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
There comes a time when you trust your sources.
You're arguing that someone needs to show you a written, signed agreement before you acknowledge. At the same time you cannot disproof that it exists either and keep asking this forum to believe, put trust in you.
Yes, there are those that will charge over MSRP and there are ways around it. But at the same token if it was that easy why aren't all doing it. Why even have an MSRP if every dealer knows best based on their market.
You're arguing that someone needs to show you a written, signed agreement before you acknowledge. At the same time you cannot disproof that it exists either and keep asking this forum to believe, put trust in you.
Yes, there are those that will charge over MSRP and there are ways around it. But at the same token if it was that easy why aren't all doing it. Why even have an MSRP if every dealer knows best based on their market.
"Dealers are free to set their own prices and prices may vary"
The fact that you and your buddy refuse to believe what is posted right on the Porsche website is laughable.
Stop wasting my time if you can not produce a document that says Porsche dealers in the US are not free to set their own prices or you can give me the name of ONE dealer who lost his franchise for charging over MSRP.
10-13-2014, 03:39 PM
#45
I wasn't complaining about the bit over msrp, even though I don't like it. The issue is that the dealer sat on my order preventing me from getting PTS even though it was available. Their goal was to book the revenue in december insted of january and that would not be possible with PTS cars. I can't even imagine how tiny an amount the extra interest would be for the 2 month delay in their ability to book the sale.