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To PCCB or not PCCB

 
Old 01-21-2014, 01:18 PM
  #31  
deutschmick
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This debate will never be solved here. Get what you like.

I got them on my '07 simply because I'd never had them before. I like 'em. Easy enough to switch to iron rotors if you desire.
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:32 PM
  #32  
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Wow. I went to university for 12 years and I don't understand what an imperious attitude is. How can I begin to debate you? In any case, other than cheaper cost can someone tell me one advantage of the steel brakes? Yes, I admit I like the bling. Yes, I admit price wasn't part of the decision. Yes, no brake dust was very important to me. Can you tell me what quiet and comfortable has to do with PCCB. If anything, they are more comfortable due to the lower unsprung weight. Much of my car only holds theoretical benefits....like X-51,PDCC etc. In fact, since I don't track anymore, most of my car is just theoretical like top speed etc. AP stated that PCCB is the one ,best option on the GT3. I didn't make that up but they most certainly don't take away from comfort. I didn't choose to pass on a GT3 because of the brakes. I chose to pass because it's louder, bumpier and less refined as a DD. It also doesn't offer a sunroof, awesome stereo or heated steering wheel. On track, it's the best. I think the GT3 is an awesome car....for those that will take advantage of it's abilities. If Bill Gates asked the question "which brakes are better?" what would you answer? Thank-you. I rest my case.
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:50 PM
  #33  
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Ahh easy steels

I've had the chance to spec PCCBs on three cars and just can't play marketing victim

When their function exceeds the steels I will switch

Until then it's ferrous
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:08 PM
  #34  
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Kool-aid at its best!
AP also said,in 2009 if I'm not mistaking,that " flappy paddles are for grandmas ", yet 3 years later he was singing a different tune...
Keep drinking that stuff...

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Old 01-21-2014, 03:10 PM
  #35  
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Test drive two identical cars--one with PCCB and one without. Make sure your test route includes highway expansion joints and city street imperfections. Again, given a no-cost difference choice, you will pick PCCB for the street. The ride is better. I don't care about the bling factor--I can paint calipers yellow for a lot less than 8,800.00. The ride is better, and THAT is a real advantage.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:11 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Bacura View Post
Wow. I went to university for 12 years and I don't understand what an imperious attitude is. How can I begin to debate you? In any case, other than cheaper cost can someone tell me one advantage of the steel brakes? Yes, I admit I like the bling. Yes, I admit price wasn't part of the decision. Yes, no brake dust was very important to me. Can you tell me what quiet and comfortable has to do with PCCB. If anything, they are more comfortable due to the lower unsprung weight. Much of my car only holds theoretical benefits....like X-51,PDCC etc. In fact, since I don't track anymore, most of my car is just theoretical like top speed etc. AP stated that PCCB is the one ,best option on the GT3. I didn't make that up but they most certainly don't take away from comfort. I didn't choose to pass on a GT3 because of the brakes. I chose to pass because it's louder, bumpier and less refined as a DD. It also doesn't offer a sunroof, awesome stereo or heated steering wheel. On track, it's the best. I think the GT3 is an awesome car....for those that will take advantage of it's abilities. If Bill Gates asked the question "which brakes are better?" what would you answer? Thank-you. I rest my case.
I'm no lawyer, but that's a pretty weak case. For a guy that went to university for 12 years, I would think that you would understand that what is 'better' for one situation/individual is not 'better' for another. What if someone told you that the GT3 is better than your Carrera? It's the best so pay for the best. Period. End of story...???


X51, PDCC, PCCB are not theoretical benefits. They are only theoretical for you because you don't use them. AP also stated that Porsche will be offering 410mm iron rotors to replace pccb for those that really want to track their car. He did so for a reason.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:41 PM
  #37  
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Sweet another PCCB thread, I love these just as much as I love knowing I have 16k worth of brand new PCCB's in my closet next to wives Christian Louboutins.

Kidding aside does anyone know what exactly has improved from Gen 2 to Gen 3 other than the surface fractures visible on the rotors?
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:59 PM
  #38  
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DO IT!
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:32 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by 911GT3 View Post
Test drive two identical cars--one with PCCB and one without. Make sure your test route includes highway expansion joints and city street imperfections. Again, given a no-cost difference choice, you will pick PCCB for the street. The ride is better. I don't care about the bling factor--I can paint calipers yellow for a lot less than 8,800.00. The ride is better, and THAT is a real advantage.
Yup did that... At least with gen 2... Not convinced by diff.. Streets of Houston too

Just run the right pads in steels and you will achieve equivalent initial bite.. Assuming such floats your boat
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:40 PM
  #40  
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LOL @ the imperious sub-debate.

Originally Posted by Bill_C4S View Post
Yup did that... At least with gen 2... Not convinced by diff.. Streets of Houston too

Just run the right pads in steels and you will achieve equivalent initial bite.. Assuming such floats your boat
True, but probably not with the same level of wear, dust, or noise.

(I didn't order PCCBs this time around despite having them on my last two 997's)
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:05 PM
  #41  
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"Kidding aside does anyone know what exactly has improved from Gen 2 to Gen 3 other than the surface fractures visible on the rotors? "

I believe that they are built for better track endurance (obviously questionable), and also easier to swap out for steels for track days and re-place the PCCBs when ready for resale, maintenance. Again only what I have read, and asked reps at NAIAS. Dealers love the PCCBs for resale and trade in value and that is about the only consistent thing I have seen with the PCCBs. I didn't like them for the manual gearbox as it made it harder to heel and toe (foot was further away from accelerator) but I ordered them on the 991 GT3 we shall see in a few months!!
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:07 PM
  #42  
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I haven't owned a PCCB car, though I have owned a car equipped with Brembo Carbon Ceramic Brakes as well as numerous cars with high performance steel brakes.

I'm not an authority, but is seems the PCCB debate mostly comes down to the heart or the wallet, not science or engineering.

Heart - "I want the newest thing" Carbon Ceramic Brakes fit very nicely into that category.
Heart - "I hate brake dust, Carbon Ceramic Brakes don't dust."

Wallet - "I can afford to go to more track days if I run steel rotors."

If we evaluate them from a performance perspective there are a number of areas to be discussed:

Stock Brake Torque
Marketing leads us to believe that stock for stock PCCBs provide higher brake torque and therefore shorter stopping distances. For Gen I and Gen 2 PCCBs the front disks were the same diamter as their steel counterparts - though I have not tested them back to back, I believe the difference is stock stopping distance to be minimal.

Maximum Brake Torque
The aggressive racing/track compounds available for steel produce higher maximum torque than the same diameter PCCBs with stock or aftermarket pads. The Gen 3 PCCBs on the 991 GT3 are larger diameter allowing them to generate higher torque with a less agressive compound - remains to be seen if the maximum braking force is higher than an aggressive pad on steel.

Brake Modulation
There are a number of factors in the brake system design that affect the driver's ability to accurately modulate the brakes to achieve threshold braking. These include position and fulcrum length of the brake pedal, the master cylinder bore and stroke, the ABS system, pad area, rotor diameter, etc. The number of alternative compounds available for steel allow the brake feel of a car to be tuned to the driver or track requirements - PCCB does not yet have sufficient options to allow this flexibility. The larger diameter Gen 3 PCCB rotors may provide additional ability to modulate with less brake pedal force.

Handling
PCCBs clearly win here as they weigh less allowing the driver to feel more information from the front axle. The 991 has electric steering and there may not be as much benefit as earlier hydraulic steering systems.

Cold Bite or Initial Brake Torque
Early Carbon Ceramic Brakes were known for poor initial bite. For road applications where you might cruise for a good distance without applying the brakes this can be an issue. Pad compounds for steels used on street cars typically offer good cold bite while more agressive track pads can often have very low initial bite until the pad and rotor are warm.

Brake Fade
Both brake systems offered by Porsche are very capable and with the correct fluid offer very good fade resistance. On a circuit that requires extremely heavy or frequent braking the steels do not dissipate heat as quickly as the ceramic which could lead to some amount of brake fade.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:48 PM
  #43  
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Forgive my ignorance. Are F1 brakes steel or carbon ceramic? Also, can someone tell me if all new Ferrari's come with steel or carbon ceramic brakes? Just wondering. We are not discussing best value...just best. I'll repeat my initial question one more time. Other than price advantage is there ANY other ADVANTAGE that steel brakes have over ceramics? Even if PCCB were only lighter and had no brake dust those would be 2 advantages.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:14 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Bacura View Post
Other than price advantage is there ANY other ADVANTAGE that steel brakes have over ceramics? Even if PCCB were only lighter and had no brake dust those would be 2 advantages.
Read the post right above yours by reidry. He sums everything up nicely. You might have missed the iron advantages he pointed out if you were wearing those special pccb bias glasses. He didn't even mention price.

However, I will. I don't know of many people, even those that want 'the best', who are interested in spending $20k (yes, 20k) to replace rotors every 5-10 track days. It's easy for you to shrug off the initial cost because you'll never wear out the rotors with your usage. The replacements costs are MORE than the actual option itself.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:21 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Bill_C4S View Post
Yup did that... At least with gen 2... Not convinced by diff.. Streets of Houston too
Did it with my car too. Swapped out to equivalent sized iron rotors. I couldn't tell the difference in acceleration or handling. I gained a total of 27 pounds unsprung mass. My lap times dropped too because of the pfc08 pads.
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