TRAKCAR

+1 cant wait to try it out on one hand and scared of the disappointment on the other.



+3 ^^ This.

NJ-GT

All the DC transmissions pre-load the next gear, this is why shifting time is zero (gear is already pre-selected). The 458 in 2010, 2011 and part of 2012 had a clutch swap time 40 ms. After plenty of feedback from owners, Getrag came up with a software upgrade for mid 2012 and forward, shifting went up to 100ms.

The single clutch sequential in the 430 Scuderia, 16M, and 599 GTO shifts in 60ms.

The Aventador uses the newer Magneti-Marelli Selespeed compared to the 16M/430Scuderia/599GTO, and does it in 50ms.

One of the reasons some PDK drivers don't even shift with the paddles anymore has to do with the delay in between input (pulling paddle in a VW) and actual shift. I have driven many flavors of PDK since 2009, also the DSG, DCT, SSG, and they are all laggy. Best DCT I have driven was on a 2012 458, this one with the slower shifting time compared to the -2012 cars, but much more fun (you get a kick on upshift, not present in the slushbox feeling in the earlier 458s).

Any box that upshifts 100ms or faster (0.1 secs or faster) beats most humans (my GT3/Cayman powershifts must be in the 150ms-200ms range, the AiM or Traqmate are not precise enough to tell me the exact time).

What I find interesting is the internet-based superiority of dual-clutch over single-clutch sequentials. Things like dual-clutch seamless shifting, shifting time may be zero milliseconds, but the clutches still need to swap and they use time, so zero time shifting, 100ms on clutch swap, add 200ms on lag between paddle pull and software doing the work (e92 M3), and shifting becomes a 300ms thing. Things like how smooth they are (and yes they are compared to a single clutch), if you want smooth you buy a Mercedes with a slushbox.

Dual-clutch transmissions are such a penalty on added weight, with no gains.

In the Fiat latest single clutch sequential, the system only adds 12 lbs, this number is a lot higher on cars with dual-clutch transmissions, +60 lbs average.

On the 991 GT3 videos, paddles are responding faster than in the typical PDK cars. The 100ms time quoted may be the total time from paddle pull to gear engaged. The almost imperceptible time between 100ms and 40ms is the difference of making these dc boxes feel like a CVT or a true race-sequential. I prefer the 100ms feeling, that kick on upshifts like Sport bikes, and the fast single-clutch sequentials.

NJ-GT

The point-n-shoot is direct consequence of the e-diff. E-Diff v3 (in the 458 Italia) has removed this defect. Under braking, the Scuderia e-diff locks at 100%, and it takes a little time to open up, this is why (in addition to width) the car is horrible for autoX, and it resists turning to the point of having to slow down too much, try to steer a car with a welded diff (drag race car) and you get the idea.

Fix is expensive, ditch e-diff, replace with a mechanical LSD made by Drexler. This removes a little weight from the car, but no aftermarket outlet has found a way to remove the e-diff error, and with this error the car enters Sport mode (8200rpm limit, CST and CT active in medium level). The answer is in the F430 Challenge ECUs, but a wizard is needed to extract that code and move it to the street car ECU.

Gros Chien

Ha! Sure, as long as its red, full leather, lift. [/QUOTE]

Mmmmmmmm! How about PTS Gulf Orange

frayed

Rad good posts.

As stated above and before in other threads, I have always felt the lag b/t input and actual shifting is the major shortcoming of auto manuals in general. It *appears* that PAG found a way to manage this lag as the vids are showing near instant (or fast enough) shifting that the frustrating lag has all but been eliminated, and other journalists are stating how hard wired/instant the gearbox is.

I'm afraid that the single clutch auto manuals will likely go the way of the manual transmission. DCTs are 'softer' as you say and likely appeal to the nouveau riche of Shanghai and it makes financial sense to intensify it for the GT3 rather than engineer a single clutch box. Although single clutch boxes are now in VW's stable (Lambo) they have been engineered for a completely different beast.

As to Ferrari's e-diff, if it's slow to come off full lock at turn-in I'm surprised there hasn't been a software fix for that?? Have you found a lot of understeer in fast transitions?

Based on what we've heard so far about the 3, understeer at turn in has been tamed and with the nannies switched off, the baseline chassis has been set up to oversteer.

NJ-GT

Software fix? not needed for cars and coffee, and if you mention you want to track the car, they want to sell you a Challenge car with mandatory storage, transportation, maintenance and track support by the selling dealer.

Understeer is the one thing the F430 excels any other car, it just plows everywhere. Pretty safe, but annoying to have the front axle washing out everywhere. While the Aero Beetles are controlling the rear with gas and aero grip (examples, T1 and Bishop Bend at Sebring), the F430 nose wants to wash away, and only a lower speed keeps it on the rails (giving up time to the Aero Beetles).

The new Boxster and Cayman have been setup to be neutral with the nannies on, and loose with the nannies off, awesome setup. If they have done this with the 991 GT3, that's more awesome, controlling the rear with gas is fun and rewarding, not much can be done when the front axle is the one giving away.

RobSpyder

Is understeer like this prevalent in the 458 as well?

NJ-GT

Totally gone. 458 turns, F430 doesn't.

On E-Diff v3 software, steering input under braking is now part of the factors to release pressure from the e-diff control valve (opening the diff).

Now, I wonder if swapping the e-diff control unit from a 458 to the F430 would match the connector (and most likely it will) and run the same as in the 458, given that a 430 also has a steering angle sensor.

Awaiting news in 2 months on the 458 Scuderia, natural upgrade, and probably cheaper than a GT3 RS 4.0.

frayed

Gotchya; forgot we are talking about Fiat here.


Agreed.

TomTom77

NJ-GT: Cheaper than a GT3 RS 4.0? Really? Where?

I don't know the recent developments of the 4.0 prices, but in terms of new prices, in my neck of the woods, the 'Scuderia' is almost twice as high as the 4.0 was almost 2 years ago?

Macca

TomTom77. How much in USD approx would a used 4.0RS sell for in Dubai? Cant imagine there are many there? Al LHD I suppose?

Any news when the first 991 GT3 will hit Dubai?

TomTom77

Hey Mooty,

Only 3 4.0s were delivered in Dubai. I made my down-payment within 30' after the car was 'in the system', but 'only' having bought a 997.1 GT3 RS before, I didn't get one allocated since VVVVVIPs allegedly hade made orders before. Let's not go there... it still pains me! To answer your question: I really don't know, since there's insufficient trading to properly establish a price, but with a new price of about 780k AED base, I personally don't see them exceed 1M AED at any time (soon) and that's the price of a base 458 in our neck of the woods. And yes, all LHD.

The first batch of 3 GT3s (Arth, myself and A.N Other) are promised to will reach Dubai by mid October, for delivery soon thereafter after clearing customs and all. This was 'delayed' by 6 weeks over the earlier promised delivery of early September, which you and others, rightly so, didn't believe to start with.

Macca

Hi TomTom77. Thanks for that. Very interesting.

I understand from the factory they are had had some issues meeting original production time lines. First RHD production was scheduled originally for Oct, then moved to Oct then back to November now. The issues appears to be that the factory only have capacity for so many production slots over the course of 2013/14 before the production run comes to an end. With no doubt a calender full of "low volume" specials not to mention the huge range of 991 "variants" that will no doubt spawn in 2014 they have very limited capacity and windows of production given their current capacity and targets for annual growth increase (they want 200k units sold in 2015).

It does sound like you will be one of the first on here to actually drive the LHD 991 GT3 probably by late Oct. Thats fantastic and we await your first hand feedback. You have owned and own an enviable range of machines from manual GT3 RS to computerized Nissan GTR so I honestly cant think of a better person to give us a fair representation of what we are looking at. The one fellow I know who has direct experience with the car assures me it will be a very enjoyable experience indeed...

Arth

Hi Macca,


As TomTom stated above,both of us, along with one more guy will be getting the first 3 cars in Dubai.

Unfortunately that early September date was pushed to mid October much to our frustration. Hopefully this new delivery date sticks and we should have our cars second week of October.

We will be meeting up ( Tom and I) for some drives almost immediately and I will be taking it to the track ASAP after break-in is done.

Will try to get as much information to you guys if requested.

Cheers

Macca

Hi Arth. We certainly will live vicariously through your early 991 GT3 experiences as I suspect these will be the first posed on this board by actual owners! My guess is you will certainly be driving them by the end of October.

Does anyone have any idea (or has been told by the dealer) what the "break in" procedure is on these cars?