Killing the PDK
05-31-2013, 05:00 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Killing the PDK
This issue of manual vs. pdk is easily solved.
The market/consumer is the final arbiter; therefore if the sales
volumes of this new gt3 are dismal because what people REALLY want
is a manual, does anyone think porsche won't offer one?
however, I suspect this will not be the case and the new car
will enjoy a hockey stick sales curve, validating porsche's decision
to kill off the manual. if, as a community, you/we demand a manual
then DON'T buy the car. economic theory does work in practice.
The market/consumer is the final arbiter; therefore if the sales
volumes of this new gt3 are dismal because what people REALLY want
is a manual, does anyone think porsche won't offer one?
however, I suspect this will not be the case and the new car
will enjoy a hockey stick sales curve, validating porsche's decision
to kill off the manual. if, as a community, you/we demand a manual
then DON'T buy the car. economic theory does work in practice.
05-31-2013, 08:10 PM
#2
I do not think it is that simple.
First : the market is always under influence.
i.e.: If "Big Driving Gourou" (number one pilot) goes on TV with a big smile and say "PDK is King", one time, two times, ..X times, after some times, a certain percent of the “market” will "follow" and ..you got it. (Btw, I think, this is where we are.)
PDK (and other Shifters driven by computers) are here to reduce CO2, as Politics are driving big time the car manufacturers ..to have them reduce CO2, using brutal force (taxes).
Now, how this will affect the “sport car market” long time ?
I think, ..but this is quite personal, that what Porsche is doing (promoting big time PDK, using the kings of the roads to speak good about it, spending millions to advertising it, etc..) could very well be a boomerang, that will return in their faces, faster than they can think about it.
After 30 years non stop of (manual) 911 as daily, I just bought a Panamera (4S, "sport plus", air susp., etc..) and 4 months and 6'000 miles later, I just feel that for me, the BIGGEST problem of this car, ..is PDK.
IT IS A BIG TIME FUN REMOVER for such a good “sport” car, that you drive on every days road.
More simply, and more directly, i.e.: very brutal : If the fun of the stick shift is over, I may very well change my Panamera against a TESLA, ..as then, I will know very well why I will have no stick shift anymore.
..That's what I call the potential very costly return ..of the Boomerang.
Now, it is true also in my opinion, that for the GT3, ..it is the only case (i.e.: a track car), where, I would love to have a Paddle shifter, ..because, then, you are not here (on track) to have fun shifting. You are you there to drive fast, and to be as fast as you can, imo, there is no doubt that PDK can give you a pretty good help for that !
Funny, ..it looks like I’m most probably completely against the wind !
First : the market is always under influence.
i.e.: If "Big Driving Gourou" (number one pilot) goes on TV with a big smile and say "PDK is King", one time, two times, ..X times, after some times, a certain percent of the “market” will "follow" and ..you got it. (Btw, I think, this is where we are.)
PDK (and other Shifters driven by computers) are here to reduce CO2, as Politics are driving big time the car manufacturers ..to have them reduce CO2, using brutal force (taxes).
Now, how this will affect the “sport car market” long time ?
I think, ..but this is quite personal, that what Porsche is doing (promoting big time PDK, using the kings of the roads to speak good about it, spending millions to advertising it, etc..) could very well be a boomerang, that will return in their faces, faster than they can think about it.
After 30 years non stop of (manual) 911 as daily, I just bought a Panamera (4S, "sport plus", air susp., etc..) and 4 months and 6'000 miles later, I just feel that for me, the BIGGEST problem of this car, ..is PDK.
IT IS A BIG TIME FUN REMOVER for such a good “sport” car, that you drive on every days road.
More simply, and more directly, i.e.: very brutal : If the fun of the stick shift is over, I may very well change my Panamera against a TESLA, ..as then, I will know very well why I will have no stick shift anymore.
..That's what I call the potential very costly return ..of the Boomerang.
Now, it is true also in my opinion, that for the GT3, ..it is the only case (i.e.: a track car), where, I would love to have a Paddle shifter, ..because, then, you are not here (on track) to have fun shifting. You are you there to drive fast, and to be as fast as you can, imo, there is no doubt that PDK can give you a pretty good help for that !
Funny, ..it looks like I’m most probably completely against the wind !
05-31-2013, 08:47 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
the points you make are valid. my point is given the visceral reaction of both consumers and the motoring press about not having a manual or even the option of one in the gt3, is that the consumer CAN influence organizational thought by voting with their dollars. the free market works and nothing sends a more powerful message to a manufacturer than having their product remain on the shelves...or in this case, on the showroom floor.
Last edited by FLYT993; 05-31-2013 at 08:49 PM. Reason: typo
05-31-2013, 10:13 PM
#4
Yes Dan, ..but, are you sure of your word "free market" ?
In my case, I would love a be able to get a manual Panamera, ..and in the US, country of freedom, ..no way Jose ! (Only in Europe, and now, I’m not sure anymore !)
Is it not crazy, that for such a reason, there are great chances that I will end with a Tesla S ?
To be back in the topic, YES, I agree, the fact that P makes the GT3 (..i.e.: the "Flagship") PDK only is EXTREMELY VICIOUS.
Somehow it makes me think about Microsoft, making Windows versions that are more and more only "Good for Geeks". For a lot of people, it becomes ways TOO complicate, and ..here the Boomerang come back again, even twice, and big time : 1) people go to tablets to return to SIMPLE, ..while stupid analysts are saying "..gna gna the PC is dead !", analyzing nothing to understand why ! and 2) (this is not really yet, but coming very soon) some PCs are going to arrive with Google OS, very basic, very simple, but good enough for many of us !!
Again, back to the GT3, the flagship with PDK only, ..could very well be the sign or at least the first of the signs, that shows that P is going into a direction that ..I do not like that much anymore.
We are living now in an era where the people that take decisions on products are too often Engineers, (..I’m an engineer myself !!) and the ones at these decisional positions are very often the model with super big Ego. (By definition, this model no not heard any others.)
How come do you want to get products that satisfy customers in such a system ?
Well, as you said, the only thing we can do, (if we are not "loyal followers", sheep type), ..it is to stop to buy.
But this is a process that is slow, the loop is long, ..before any possible re-action !
Well, this may be all together another reason why the old good cars, ..are gaining attraction, and become more an more valuable. At least in that case, the profit goes in the ..clever customers that kept the good ones !
I feel sorry for being a bit off topic but, I think so much that PDK is fun remover, ..that, ..I probably typed too much “words” !
In my case, I would love a be able to get a manual Panamera, ..and in the US, country of freedom, ..no way Jose ! (Only in Europe, and now, I’m not sure anymore !)
Is it not crazy, that for such a reason, there are great chances that I will end with a Tesla S ?
To be back in the topic, YES, I agree, the fact that P makes the GT3 (..i.e.: the "Flagship") PDK only is EXTREMELY VICIOUS.
Somehow it makes me think about Microsoft, making Windows versions that are more and more only "Good for Geeks". For a lot of people, it becomes ways TOO complicate, and ..here the Boomerang come back again, even twice, and big time : 1) people go to tablets to return to SIMPLE, ..while stupid analysts are saying "..gna gna the PC is dead !", analyzing nothing to understand why ! and 2) (this is not really yet, but coming very soon) some PCs are going to arrive with Google OS, very basic, very simple, but good enough for many of us !!
Again, back to the GT3, the flagship with PDK only, ..could very well be the sign or at least the first of the signs, that shows that P is going into a direction that ..I do not like that much anymore.
We are living now in an era where the people that take decisions on products are too often Engineers, (..I’m an engineer myself !!) and the ones at these decisional positions are very often the model with super big Ego. (By definition, this model no not heard any others.)
How come do you want to get products that satisfy customers in such a system ?
Well, as you said, the only thing we can do, (if we are not "loyal followers", sheep type), ..it is to stop to buy.
But this is a process that is slow, the loop is long, ..before any possible re-action !
Well, this may be all together another reason why the old good cars, ..are gaining attraction, and become more an more valuable. At least in that case, the profit goes in the ..clever customers that kept the good ones !
I feel sorry for being a bit off topic but, I think so much that PDK is fun remover, ..that, ..I probably typed too much “words” !
06-01-2013, 12:26 AM
#5
The free market has already spoken. Ferraris, 997.2 Turbos, Lambos have all seen a +90% take rate on paddles. The consumer killed the clutch pedal. I hated it as I saw this happening. I hated it when Ferrari declared there would be no option for a clutch pedal on a 458. Hated. But I now have a new GT3 coming and while I would’ve rather ordered a manual transmission, I’ve driven some of the newest paddles (Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes) and can appreciate the benefits and understand why Porsche has made the move. This is a car focused on extreme high performance and/or track driving, and the manual gearbox has become a weak link in the parts list of a modern, fast track car. I will miss heel/toe and rowing my own gears but am not concerned about being “bored” running my new GT3 at a faster pace than ever before (as I know from my friends who run McLarens & Scuds at our track days). There is a lot more to running a car at a high level on-track than working a clutch pedal and a faster box allows you to explore these limits even further. I DO have my sights on an older air-cooled 911 as a 2nd car for street use at some point but for ultra-high performance on the track I am ready to try PDK-S. If it bores me, I will trade for a 997.2 RS and happily save myself some $$.
06-01-2013, 01:31 AM
#6
i think the problem is the automatic trans drives new demand for the car that we are all unhappy about.
Lots of people who like auto trannies may come to market and buy their first gt3 now...Obviously this is bad news for us.
for the hundreds of us who live and die by our clutch pedals - - their could be thousands of people who crave a good ole automatic.
Lots of people who like auto trannies may come to market and buy their first gt3 now...Obviously this is bad news for us.
for the hundreds of us who live and die by our clutch pedals - - their could be thousands of people who crave a good ole automatic.
06-01-2013, 01:42 AM
#7
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i think the problem is the automatic trans drives new demand for the car that we are all unhappy about.
Lots of people who like auto trannies may come to market and buy their first gt3 now...Obviously this is bad news for us.
for the hundreds of us who live and die by our clutch pedals - - their could be thousands of people who crave a good ole automatic.
Lots of people who like auto trannies may come to market and buy their first gt3 now...Obviously this is bad news for us.
for the hundreds of us who live and die by our clutch pedals - - their could be thousands of people who crave a good ole automatic.
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06-01-2013, 02:44 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
06-01-2013, 02:56 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Pointless thread as its no different to any other thread started on here about PDK vs manual but in effect, those previously too soft to take a Gt3 will now fill the spots to impress their cars and coffee buddies yet for those of us who always wanted the challenge of what a GT car once represented, we'll likely have to spend our money elsewhere...
06-01-2013, 10:31 AM
#11
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too late.
the car is engineered with PDK.
No sence in the manufactue adapting the manual from the Carrera parts bin on a low volume car.
the car is engineered with PDK.
No sence in the manufactue adapting the manual from the Carrera parts bin on a low volume car.
06-01-2013, 10:35 AM
#12
Pointless thread as its no different to any other thread started on here about PDK vs manual but in effect, those previously too soft to take a Gt3 will now fill the spots to impress their cars and coffee buddies yet for those of us who always wanted the challenge of what a GT car once represented, we'll likely have to spend our money elsewhere...
And if you had an opportunity to sell more widgets would you say no?
In effect this is what the PDK in PDK-S does, ie bring new customers into the bucket. And the S in PDK-S keep the old ones interested.
Yeah I hear everyone saying they are cannibalizing the old ones but really what other choice in the market place do you have? And don't say Aston Martin, lotus, viper or corvette, please.
06-01-2013, 11:22 AM
#13
Interview with Wolfgang Hatz (Porsche, Head of R&D):
"If I compare 997 PDK it's, erm, difficult; then on 991 I think we took a huge step (with the PDK): this new 'box is like PDK 3.0 it's such another level. For the past two and a half years I pushed my transmission guys, I always said 'too slow', 'it's not fun'. The benchmark was the Ferrari 458 (gearbox): now we have the new benchmark".
Our pairing then go on to confirm that the weight disadvantage of the PDK box (40kg) is partially negated by the new engine being lighter than the old Mezger unit (25kg). No matter what question is thrown at them they remain convinced of their decision, and also of the fact it's more enjoyable than the old manual gearbox in the 997 GT3.
But, as Hatz says, "if we are wrong we are not stupid and will say ok, for the RS then perhaps we will change" (and consider a manual).
Source: Interview with Andreas Preuninger and Wolfgang Hatz (911& Porsche World)
"If I compare 997 PDK it's, erm, difficult; then on 991 I think we took a huge step (with the PDK): this new 'box is like PDK 3.0 it's such another level. For the past two and a half years I pushed my transmission guys, I always said 'too slow', 'it's not fun'. The benchmark was the Ferrari 458 (gearbox): now we have the new benchmark".
Our pairing then go on to confirm that the weight disadvantage of the PDK box (40kg) is partially negated by the new engine being lighter than the old Mezger unit (25kg). No matter what question is thrown at them they remain convinced of their decision, and also of the fact it's more enjoyable than the old manual gearbox in the 997 GT3.
But, as Hatz says, "if we are wrong we are not stupid and will say ok, for the RS then perhaps we will change" (and consider a manual).
Source: Interview with Andreas Preuninger and Wolfgang Hatz (911& Porsche World)
06-01-2013, 11:46 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
The free market has already spoken. Ferraris, 997.2 Turbos, Lambos have all seen a +90% take rate on paddles. The consumer killed the clutch pedal. I hated it as I saw this happening. I hated it when Ferrari declared there would be no option for a clutch pedal on a 458. Hated. But I now have a new GT3 coming and while I would’ve rather ordered a manual transmission, I’ve driven some of the newest paddles (Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes) and can appreciate the benefits and understand why Porsche has made the move. This is a car focused on extreme high performance and/or track driving, and the manual gearbox has become a weak link in the parts list of a modern, fast track car. I will miss heel/toe and rowing my own gears but am not concerned about being “bored” running my new GT3 at a faster pace than ever before (as I know from my friends who run McLarens & Scuds at our track days). There is a lot more to running a car at a high level on-track than working a clutch pedal and a faster box allows you to explore these limits even further. I DO have my sights on an older air-cooled 911 as a 2nd car for street use at some point but for ultra-high performance on the track I am ready to try PDK-S. If it bores me, I will trade for a 997.2 RS and happily save myself some $$.
06-01-2013, 12:02 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
Anyone who finds driving PDK on the track to be "boring" or "less exciting" than driving a MT is definitely
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver